Player Discussion: Laine

[ps241]

If the Jets fire Maurice, it would be a catastrophe if they brought in a coach that coddled Laine and didn't expect players to at least come to camp in top shape and work at their game.

I think a lot of Jets' fans don't realize how most top coaches would deal with a player like Laine, who publicly threw Little under the bus and hasn't come to camp in top condition once (I know that because I've watched all of the on-ice fitness tests, and Laine struggled badly every year).

This is the part Laine owns. He said he wants to be the best in the world well if so then he needs to work harder in the off season on his fitness. If your not competing for the fittest guy in camp then you are not trying to be the best in the world.

I know it sounds like I am Tothing this by being on both sides of the debate but that’s because both sides have not brought their best version to the challenge.

 

[AKAChip]

It's not like the CSW line hasn't been good in the past...

View attachment 372964

I think it’s disingenuous to post results from 2018 when Wheeler is very clearly not remotely the same player today.

 

[Whileee]

Hadn’t thought of this but yes, definitely a possibility.

And it isn’t just Laine, clearly, who has queried his usage under PoMo. There’s Trouba, and likely Buff as well, definitely Toby and now Roslo too, it appears, while there have been rumblings with Copp and Nik as well.

That’s a healthy number of players, not all of whom can be characterized as me-first types — and Cole Perfetti, with his own strong opinions, waiting in the wings.

Maybe the Jets need a coach that decides on ice-time and usage based on whoever whines the most.

Having a culture with players that are focused on their individual stats is antithetical to being a top contender. The Bruins all buy in to whatever usage the coaching staff decides. I didn't hear Gourde or others on TB complaining about playing bottom-6, or any of the Vegas D complaining about playing their off side on D.

Maurice might not be the best coach for the Jets going forward, but whichever coach replaces him better be able to get players to buy into a team concept.

 

[gojetsgo]

It's not like the CSW line hasn't been good in the past...

View attachment 372964

so my argument was that wheeler got to play with a better set of dmen last year and you counter that with him playing with an even better pair the year before?

 

[AKAChip]

Maybe the Jets need a coach that decides on ice-time and usage based on whoever whines the most.

Having a culture with players that are focused on their individual stats is antithetical to being a top contender. The Bruins all buy in to whatever usage the coaching staff decides. I didn't hear Gourde or others on TB complaining about playing bottom-6, or any of the Vegas D complaining about playing their off side on D.

Maurice might not be the best coach for the Jets going forward, but whichever coach replaces him better be able to get players to buy into a team concept.

Perhaps if the Jets had remotely the same success as Boston or Tampa, the players wouldn’t think they knew better than the coach. Of course, this is a chicken/egg situation but still not a fair comparable.

 

[None]

I have no idea what those stats mean. But I know what my eyes tell me when I watch the game

GF% is the percentage of goals scored for the player's team while they're on the ice. So lower than 50% means that they get outscored, higher than 50% means that they score more than the opponent.
This one is pretty easy to understand from those stats - CSL gets outscored and CSW doesn't.

xGF% is the expected goals for %. There's different models for calculating this but in general it tries to predict the amount of goals a player would average over 60 minutes of TOI using stats like unblocked shot attempts and comparing them league-wide. The SF
The best shooters will probably always beat this stat as I understand it, but it's indicative that a player doesn't contribute much to the actual play that creates scoring chances when it's lower than 50%.

 

[JetsUK]

Maybe the Jets need a coach that decides on ice-time and usage based on whoever whines the most.

Having a culture with players that are focused on their individual stats is antithetical to being a top contender. The Bruins all buy in to whatever usage the coaching staff decides. I didn't hear Gourde or others on TB complaining about playing bottom-6, or any of the Vegas D complaining about playing their off side on D.

Maurice might not be the best coach for the Jets going forward, but whichever coach replaces him better be able to get players to buy into a team concept.

Agree, and agree.

FWIW, I think that the now-mythical 2017-18 Jets had the will and recent history to buy into that team concept and the horses to make it work and to outplay for the most part any tactical insufficiencies and suboptimal usage. Neither seems to be true anymore.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Oh man, I forgot how awful these threads are

I would like to hear your opinion on this. It would have a lot more substance then coming in and making fun of other people’s opinions

 

[Jetsfan79]

Wheeler should just hand over the top line spot and be done with this nonsense! Laine is a top line player and should be up there playing with your best C no questions asked!

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say your the coach and put Laine in the top line but there's no chemistry. The team goes on a losing streak so you change things up. Laine goes to the second line and performs pretty good The first line works well and have good chemistry. The team is winning.

What do you do? As a coach, do you go to the first line and say "I know we are winning and things are going right for you guys but Laine is a superstar. We need to give him a higher standing with the team even if it means losing "

 

[Whileee]

I think it’s disingenuous to post results from 2018 when Wheeler is very clearly not remotely the same player today.

Well, I first posted results from 2019/20, but was told it was because of DeMelo, so.

I would point out that Wheeler's shot metrics this year were better than the previous two seasons, and he was playing out of position at C. He led the Jets in expected goals +/- per 60 (using Evolving Hockey's RAPM model).

 

[JetsFan815]

when wheeler went back to the top line is the same time demelo got put with jomo, when laine was on the top line our top pairing was jomo and poolman, not saying laine's advanced stats would have been better than wheelers but it would be closer than that chart makes it seem

Most of the games used to to calculate that stat were pre-deadline when DeMelo wasn't on the roster so that doesn't matter. Laine's advanced stats have been putrid throughout his career except for 17-18 season (and even then they were worse than most other Jets) and last year was no exception.

 

[nhlpro]

My dream forward lineup next year.

Connor, Scheifele, Laine
Ehlers, Stastny, Wheeler
Vesalainen, Perfetti, Roslovic
Copp, Lowry, Perreault
Harkins ,Thompson, Appleton

 

[Whileee]

so my argument was that wheeler got to play with a better set of dmen last year and you counter that with him playing with an even better pair the year before?

Wheeler has consistently out-performed Laine in shot metrics when playing with Scheifele, regardless of who was playing on D. That's the point. Some people seem to think that Maurice should play Laine with Scheifele because he wants to play there and he's the young star player. My point is that there is strong evidence that Scheifele's line has been better with Wheeler on RW. If you would like to present some evidence to contradict that, I'd be open to changing my mind.

But as I noted earlier, how would explain to Scheifele that he should play with a RW that doesn't perform as well on that line as Wheeler? Can you imagine an interview with Scheifele where he complains about his performance and stats because he's being dragged down by having to play with Laine?

 

[Daximus]

Wheeler has consistently out-performed Laine in shot metrics when playing with Scheifele, regardless of who was playing on D. That's the point. Some people seem to think that Maurice should play Laine with Scheifele because he wants to play there and he's the young star player. My point is that there is strong evidence that Scheifele's line has been better with Wheeler on RW. If you would like to present some evidence to contradict that, I'd be open to changing my mind.

But as I noted earlier, how would explain to Scheifele that he should play with a RW that doesn't perform as well on that line as Wheeler? Can you imagine an interview with Scheifele where he complains about his performance and stats because he's being dragged down by having to play with Laine?

The same people that want to give Laine everything would gladly tell Scheifele to suck it up.

For some people there is a massive Laine bias where he can do no wrong and should be given anything and everything he wants.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Wheeler got very favorable ozone starts % this year, plus usually plays with our best/better d men. Not to mention the excessive powerplay and empty net time. Wheeler's even strength stats show he is a solid second liner. As a first liner, he is s passenger on the bus. The Calgary play in series really showed us his limitations.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Wheeler has consistently out-performed Laine in shot metrics when playing with Scheifele, regardless of who was playing on D. That's the point. Some people seem to think that Maurice should play Laine with Scheifele because he wants to play there and he's the young star player. My point is that there is strong evidence that Scheifele's line has been better with Wheeler on RW. If you would like to present some evidence to contradict that, I'd be open to changing my mind.

But as I noted earlier, how would explain to Scheifele that he should play with a RW that doesn't perform as well on that line as Wheeler? Can you imagine an interview with Scheifele where he complains about his performance and stats because he's being dragged down by having to play with Laine?

No I can’t see that. He just does it behind closed doors

 

[Teemusalami204]

Wheeler got very favorable ozone starts % this year, plus usually plays with our best/better d men. Not to mention the excessive powerplay and empty net time. Wheeler's even strength stats show he is a solid second liner. As a first liner, he is s passenger on the bus. The Calgary play in series really showed us his limitations.

I disagree for 2 years wheeler was dynamic on the ppg off the half wall. Your selling him short

 

[JetsFan815]

Of course Wheeler is better with Scheifele. We agree. I stated that earlier here. Without Scheifele, Wheeler is trash. But that's not Laine's fault that Wheeler sucks without Scheif.

That is objectively false. Wheeler played most of last season away from Scheifele, not playing in his natural position and he was pretty solid whereas Connor and Scheifele had the worst 2-way numbers of their career playing with Laine.

 

[AKAChip]

The same people that want to give Laine everything would gladly tell Scheifele to suck it up.

For some people there is a massive Laine bias where he can do no wrong and should be given anything and everything he wants.

Laine at this point in time is a flawed player. He’s an improving player, but still flawed. Even still, he has put up very good goal totals at a rate uncommon for someone of his age. Blake Wheeler is also a flawed player at this point in time. And on a steep decline, no less. I do not want prime minutes handed to Laine on a silver platter. What I do want is lines that are not unbreakable. And say what you want about whether Laine should have publicly disparaged Little. I agree it was a very poor decision. But when a team essentially has one top 6 quality centre, I can at the very least appreciate the frustration.

 

[pucka lucka]

This is such a stupid argument. Nobody is addressing the real issues with coaching. Our coach can't use players correctly. Wheeler is a better all around player than Laine up to the end of the season. I bet Laine is a significantly better player than Wheeler was at 22. Laine is the future Wheeler is the past. You don't run the future out of town. Wheeler is going to be out of the league in a few years.

Our coaching does nothing to optimize player usage. Laine is a sniper so lets play him with guys that don't pass much. Connor is near the worst defensive forward on the team; it doesn't seem to impact his usage. Laine scored 43 goals in a season by 20. Sure let's make sure he can play d before we really make use of that. It's insane. These garbage coaches think they have answers. 43 goal scoring 19 years olds should be forced to score less because reasons. Laine is a guy who should be playing off the rush, but because he's big so he's not allowed. He's gotta be a power forward. So many of those these days. Lucic! amiright?

Maybe we should force Nogier to play top minutes on PP1. He needs to learn to score.

This management and coaching group do not know how to run a team in this city. It's not working. It's hard and these guys aren't cut out for it.

 

[Luc Labelle]

View attachment 372962

Our best line combo last year was Ehlers Scheifele Laine. Judging by their GF% (100) if we had stuck with this combo and played them max minutes we may have gone undefeated.*

This line was very successful in Laine's rookie season as well.

* Warning: very small sample size, might be unsustainable.

Edited to insert 100% data.

 

[Teemusalami204]

This is such a stupid argument. Nobody is addressing the real issues with coaching. Our coach can't use players correctly. Wheeler is a better all around player than Laine up to the end of the season. I bet Laine is a significantly better player than Wheeler was at 22. Laine is the future Wheeler is the past. You don't run the future out of town. Wheeler is going to be out of the league in a few years.

Our coaching does nothing to optimize player usage. Laine is a sniper so lets play him with guys that don't pass much. Connor is near the worst defensive forward on the team; it doesn't seem to impact his usage. Laine scored 43 goals in a season by 20. Sure let's make sure he can play d before we really make use of that. It's insane. These garbage coaches think they have answers. 43 goal scoring 19 years olds should be forced to score less because reasons. Laine is a guy who should be playing off the rush, but because he's big so he's not allowed. He's gotta be a power forward. So many of those these days. Lucic! amiright?

Maybe we should force Nogier to play top minutes on PP1. He needs to learn to score.

This management and coaching group do not know how to run a team in this city. It's not working. It's hard and these guys aren't cut out for it.

Great post. Roslo vesa and very other top 6 prospect will want out as long as Lowry is running the third line as well. There is no chance for them to shine with the line combos Maurice never changes

 

[Daximus]

Laine at this point in time is a flawed player. He’s an improving player, but still flawed. Even still, he has put up very good goal totals at a rate uncommon for someone of his age. Blake Wheeler is also a flawed player at this point in time. And on a steep decline, no less. I do not want prime minutes handed to Laine on a silver platter. What I do want is lines that are not unbreakable. And say what you want about whether Laine should have publicly disparaged Little. I agree it was a very poor decision. But when a team essentially has one top 6 quality centre, I can at the very least appreciate the frustration.

I definitely get it but it was really kind of below the belt to throw a player under the bus when he isn't some sort of wizard outside of shooting either. Especially a player that was committed to the team from day 1 regardless of who he played with. I get that he wants to score goals, he's hungry for it. But even though it seems like scoring goals is the only aim of a team, it isn't. Winning games is. If Laine scores 3 goals but the other team scores 4. Laine looks great but we still lost. There needs to be a balance throughout the lineup.

I agree though forward lines shouldn't be this static thing that we roll out in some predictable fashion. I've long been a proponent of having 6 or 7 or more different combos you can roll out during certain situations. The main trouble with that is you need the depth at center to do that. Which is something we have not really had ever, outside of one season with Stastny. Having that depth at C allows you to move guys all over the place, giving players all kinds of different looks with different outcomes in mind. Having that depth also means you don't need to rely so much on your top guys and can feel more comfortable rolling out different combos to test certain situations. I do not think Maurice is that kind of coach but we also haven't really seen him with a full season of depth at center. Though to be fair not many coaches tend to do that because of job security. They roll with what works, until it doesn't and then they try to find something else that works and roll with that.

It's hard to expirement to much when you're job depends entirely on success. Not many coaches are given a long enough leash to really go all out. Even Maurice likely doesn't have that long of a leash.

 

[Daximus]

Great post. Roslo vesa and very other top 6 prospect will want out as long as Lowry is running the third line as well. There is no chance for them to shine with the line combos Maurice never changes

Yeah and the downside is we lose our best defensive C if he isn't the 3C. No way Lowry sticks around playing 4C minutes.

 

[pucka lucka]

Yeah and the downside is we lose our best defensive C if he isn't the 3C. No way Lowry sticks around playing 4C minutes.

Why do we care? Laine has to sacrifice for the team, but poor easily replaceable Lowry? I just don't understand the strategy there. Lowry is barely a 3rd line centre these days.