Player Discussion: Laine (Mod warning OP)

[tbcwpg]

Question I have is why would a Jets player bad mouth Laine to players on another team? Why mention it? How does that benefit the team in any way?

You would only mention it if you wanted to make your case to a former teammate and the only players linked to publicly calling out Laine for his lack of dedication to training has been Scheifele and Wheeler in a Friedman ‘31 Thoughts’ piece in 2018/19. Not too difficult to connect the dots.

Not sure if this revelation was intended to motivate, or embarrass, but Laine did improve his overall game. Though, it seems the relationship may be fractured.

This was former teammates talking about their current teammates. Likely Ladd asking at the request of the Isles to see if the fit would work. This wasn't a plot by Wheeler to badmouth Laine to Ladd with the hopes that the Islanders beat writer would bring it up in a weekly mailbag article designed for Isles fans who asked if trading for Laine is still something the Islanders are interested in, all designed to motivate Laine or further alienate him from the room.

 

[KingBogo]

This was former teammates talking about their current teammates. Likely Ladd asking at the request of the Isles to see if the fit would work. This wasn't a plot by Wheeler to badmouth Laine to Ladd with the hopes that the Islanders beat writer would bring it up in a weekly mailbag article designed for Isles fans who asked if trading for Laine is still something the Islanders are interested in, all designed to motivate Laine or further alienate him from the room.

Just can't see Ladd being involved. So is it the coach or GM that goes to him and say "sorry about burying you in the minors for the last 4 years of your career, but would you mind looking into this Laine kid for us". If we are buying into the digging up dirt theory it seems much more plausible that the GM would go to an old vet like Komarov who has been plugged into the Finnish international teams for 15 years and ask what Laine's reputation is among Finnish players.

 

[tbcwpg]

Just can't see Ladd being involved. So is it the coach or GM that goes to him and say "sorry about burying you in the minors for the last 4 years of your career, but would you mind looking into this Laine kid for us". If we are buying into the digging up dirt theory it seems much more plausible that the GM would go to an old vet like Komarov who has been plugged into the Finnish international teams for 15 years and ask what Laine's reputation is among Finnish players.

Involved in what?

Again, this is being painted as some schoolyard Mean Girls type gossiping when it's one team asking about another player they might be interested in trading for. Why wouldn't Ladd ask on their behalf? Why would Ladd be so upset with Isles management that he would refuse to ask about Laine?

The stated line was "Islanders who know players in Winnipeg". I'm sure Lou also asked Komarov, but is it really so implausible that Ladd asked some former teammates about a player? That he would refuse to do so because he sees it as dishonorable and is pissy with his current team for sending him to the minors after months missed from injury?

 

[ps241]

They might not need to get along to win, but they might need to get along to sign long-term.

Kessel was eventually sent packing. At some point, the organization had to decide which player to keep. Helped that they had 2 cups to ease the pain.

Its hard to say?

Kane signed long term to get the raise and he wanted out before that deal. At this point Laine is under contract for the upcoming season so I am just going to let it play out.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

I am sure they would ask anyone if they have any info on what type of guy Laine is. I know I would

The question is how much of an issue is Laine's lack of effort really ?

 

[cbcwpg]

Call me kind of impressed that Laine has managed to score 138 goals in 305 games with a total lack of effort. Think how many he will get when he fully tries.

 

[KingBogo]

I am sure they would ask anyone if they have any info on what type of guy Laine is. I know I would

The question is how much of an issue is Laine's lack of effort really ?

This seems to be lost in this whole discussion.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Call me kind of impressed that Laine has managed to score 138 goals in 305 games with a total lack of effort. Think how many he will get when he fully tries.

When he does is the question. It might be more IF he does

 

[Jets 31]

I don't think Laine doesn't give 100% during games, maybe he might sometimes do it during practices but i just don't see that in games. I do see Scheifele and Wheeler dog it back to bench for line changes sometimes, does that mean they aren't giving 100%. We are trying too hard to find a problem within this team if you ask me.

 

[Whileee]

Call me kind of impressed that Laine has managed to score 138 goals in 305 games with a total lack of effort. Think how many he will get when he fully tries.

I haven't ever really seen reason to doubt Laine's effort in games, but players assess each other in terms of effort in practices, off-season, etc. I think it's possible that other players have been less impressed by Laine's effort to get in shape and stay in shape through off-season and off-ice training, which relates to his overall fitness and commitment.

 

[pucka lucka]

My sentiments exactly!


Ps. do you love your every and each co-worker? I don't and it's not a problem. Also it should be important what happens on the ice, not that if someone is not very talkative or liked in the locker room. Heck, while I do get along everyone on our recreational ice hockey locker room, I certainly don't love all the guys but that doesn't translate poor on-ice performance. It's impossible to be the best buddies with each and every one, such is life. Apart from serious cases of toxic narcissim that should not be a problem that professional athletes could not handle.

Absolutely and this reflects poorly on leadership. Look at soccer. It's full of huge personalities, they seem to do fine. This is on leadership in the room and on the bench.

You don't score 80 goals by 19 with "low effort". This sounds like a group that want people to behave the way they think they should. Wheeler does not come across as a guy that is easy to get along with. Anyone that publicly "makes love" to his coach to the media is going to be a problem in the room e.g. go through a wall . You just don't do that in such a hierarchical environment.

 

[Eyeseeing]

From SN interview Nov 2019.

Blake Wheeler grabs me a year and a half ago and says, ‘Just be nice to the guy’ — and I got a list of about 14 reasons why I shouldn’t be, right, because of his play. But that stuck with me,” the 24-year coaching veteran said. “The game has changed. The players, especially — we have such a young group.
“Those interactions have to change.”

Was Maurice talking about Laine? Who knows right... but notice it was Wheeler suggesting Maurice lighten up.

I remember when I first saw this interview when it happened, my thought went to Ehlers.

 

[DashingDane]

Does anyone have evidence/articles of Laine putting in low effort or is this just more speculation like him wanting x amount to sign? I'm honestly curious as I only remember hearing/reading that he was usually last off the ice because him and Ehlers were practicing setting each other up for shots.

 

[DashingDane]

From SN interview Nov 2019.

Blake Wheeler grabs me a year and a half ago and says, ‘Just be nice to the guy’ — and I got a list of about 14 reasons why I shouldn’t be, right, because of his play. But that stuck with me,” the 24-year coaching veteran said. “The game has changed. The players, especially — we have such a young group.
“Those interactions have to change.”

Was Maurice talking about Laine? Who knows right... but notice it was Wheeler suggesting Maurice lighten up.

I remember when I first saw this interview when it happened, my thought went to Ehlers.

I'd not be surprise if that in fact was about Ehlers. He has certainly been a Paul scapegoat on multiple occasions.

 

[pucka lucka]

Does anyone have evidence/articles of Laine putting in low effort or is this just more speculation like him wanting x amount to sign? I'm honestly curious as I only remember hearing/reading that he was usually last off the ice because him and Ehlers were practicing setting each other up for shots.

I don't care how much talent you have you don't score 80 goals at 18-19 years old with low effort. People only say this about ultra talented people. Nobody at the top has that attribute. It's just not possible. Some people also don't understand that not everyone does things like they do.

 

[John Agar]

 

[Whileee]

Absolutely and this reflects poorly on leadership. Look at soccer. It's full of huge personalities, they seem to do fine. This is on leadership in the room and on the bench.

You don't score 80 goals by 19 with "low effort". This sounds like a group that want people to behave the way they think they should. Wheeler does not come across as a guy that is easy to get along with. Anyone that publicly "makes love" to his coach to the media is going to be a problem in the room e.g. go through a wall . You just don't do that in such a hierarchical environment.

First, you can absolutely score a lot of goals with relatively "low effort", if others are driving the play. 40% of Laine's NHL goals have been on the power play, and I would say that Laine might have the least "heavy lifting" on the PP of any of the players.

Having said that, I don't think Laine is a "low effort" player in game action. He seems quite diligent and responsible. But Laine shows signs of being somewhat "low effort" in terms of his off-season training, as indicated by his overall fitness level (compared to other young players in pre-season testing). Some of that might be related to his size / age, but in this era it's quite remarkable that a young player is engaging in very little on-ice training in the off-season (as Laine has indicated).

There was a very interesting interview with Ben Hankinson (Buff's agent). He talked about how Guentzel and other young players really "bought in" to the team in terms of their salary expectations, basically saying "that's enough salary". Perhaps that is unrealistically "kumbaya", but there is a spectrum between team-focused and individual-focused. On a team where a number of the core young players have taken relatively team-friendly deals (Scheifele, Ehlers, Connor, Hellebuyck, Morrissey), there is perhaps a socialized expectation that Laine not view himself as having much higher "value". Other analogous situations might be Boston, whereas the Leafs would offer the opposite (where the top players all ended up "reaching for the top" in salary, driven by Tavares and Matthews).

 

[abax44]

Nice try but that false equivalency instantly discredits any weak point you were trying to make. Major swing and a miss.
It's anything but "isolated" or "absurd".

What's "absurd" is the constant Wheeler bashing that is in this thread and dozens of other ones theorizing that he's "gossiping across the league". Gimme a ****ing break.

There's not a GM in the league that thinks Wheeler is a bad leader but he's constantly getting accused of it on here and blamed for lots of Laine's bad habits

Where there's smoke, there's fire...

 

[ecolad]

First, you can absolutely score a lot of goals with relatively "low effort", if others are driving the play. 40% of Laine's NHL goals have been on the power play, and I would say that Laine might have the least "heavy lifting" on the PP of any of the players.

Having said that, I don't think Laine is a "low effort" player in game action. He seems quite diligent and responsible. But Laine shows signs of being somewhat "low effort" in terms of his off-season training, as indicated by his overall fitness level (compared to other young players in pre-season testing). Some of that might be related to his size / age, but in this era it's quite remarkable that a young player is engaging in very little on-ice training in the off-season (as Laine has indicated).

There was a very interesting interview with Ben Hankinson (Buff's agent). He talked about how Guentzel and other young players really "bought in" to the team in terms of their salary expectations, basically saying "that's enough salary". Perhaps that is unrealistically "kumbaya", but there is a spectrum between team-focused and individual-focused. On a team where a number of the core young players have taken relatively team-friendly deals (Scheifele, Ehlers, Connor, Hellebuyck, Morrissey), there is perhaps a socialized expectation that Laine not view himself as having much higher "value". Other analogous situations might be Boston, whereas the Leafs would offer the opposite (where the top players all ended up "reaching for the top" in salary, driven by Tavares and Matthews).

You continue to put significant weight on the problems created by a possible contract with Laine that would disturb the player cap structure that is in place right now. This is of course a legitimate consideration but it is something that was totally foreseeable by Chevy going back to last years negotiations, and is something that every GM is faced with as they attempt to negotiate with elite RFA`s in recent years. Sure Scheifele`s salary is a great value right now, but I respectfully suggest that it was a product of a market-based discussion at that time, and not as you imply,something less than market he graciously offered because of his buy-in to the team. The disturbance to player cap structure across the League was nowhere more noticeable than in Colorado where Rantanen signed a deal well above McKinnon`s earlier negotiated contract.

 

[surixon]

You continue to put significant weight on the problems created by a possible contract with Laine that would disturb the player cap structure that is in place right now. This is of course a legitimate consideration but it is something that was totally foreseeable by Chevy going back to last years negotiations, and is something that every GM is faced with as they attempt to negotiate with elite RFA`s in recent years. Sure Scheifele`s salary is a great value right now, but I respectfully suggest that it was a product of a market-based discussion at that time, and not as you imply,something less than market he graciously offered because of his buy-in to the team. The disturbance to player cap structure across the League was nowhere more noticeable than in Colorado where Rantanen signed a deal well above McKinnon`s earlier negotiated contract.

Agreed. All of the contracts that we have signed to our young core players have been market rate deals at the time of signing. There haven't been any discounts given by the player.

Scheifele signed a similar deal to Barkov, Mackinnon and Monahan. Those were his direct market comps the year he signed. Now 3 of those players are significantly under paid but that is due to the market changing.

Morrissey is inked to deal that pays him in the 30th range of dmen in the league. That is fair value given that he ranks somewhere in that range as a player.

Ehlers deal is comparable to other deals to good wingers like Forsberg.

Helle got a similar contract to a similar caliber goalie at the same age in Holtby and Gibson.

The market has changed lately and expecting Laine to take a discount now is not at all realistic.

 

[sakux]

Komarov and Laine was on the same team in the world championships during Laine's draft year. In interviews I got the feeling that Komarov wasn't too fond of Laine.

Maybe my imagination or maybe he was tired of only getting asked questions about Laine.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Without knowing who supposedly likes or doesn’t like Laine within the dressing room.
The question needs to be asked , are we better off with or without Laine?
IF the answer within the walls of the dressing room are we are better off without him then surely Chevy has heard those issues and probably should address the situation.
I don’t recall Chevy insinuating this.
IF it’s simply a few players who don’t get along then it really doesn’t matter what “gossip” is being reported.
IF Laine supposedly values himself at 10 million or whatever...it’s not anyone else’s concern in that dressing room as they signed for whatever they believed was fair.
IF there is resentment over a perception of entitlement on Laine’s behalf then those affected need to grow up.

 

[ecolad]

Agreed. All of the contracts that we have signed to our young core players have been market rate deals at the time of signing. There haven't been any discounts given by the player.

Scheifele signed a similar deal to Barkov, Mackinnon and Monahan. Those were his direct market comps the year he signed. Now 3 of those players are significantly under paid but that is due to the market changing.

Morrissey is inked to deal that pays him in the 30th range of dmen in the league. That is fair value given that he ranks somewhere in that range as a player.

Ehlers deal is comparable to other deals to good wingers like Forsberg.

Helle got a similar contract to a similar caliber goalie at the same age in Holtby and Gibson.

The market has changed lately and expecting Laine to take a discount now is not at all realistic.

The market has changed and is still changing. And I have no idea how negotiations with Laine might ultimately come to a conclusion (nor does anyone else). But I truly hope that this notion put forward by Whileee that there may exist amongst the players a "socialized expectation" that Laine not view himself as having much higher value, is simply unfounded. If it does exist, Chevy has got far more problems than we can imagine.

 

[Atoyot]

I don't think Laine doesn't give 100% during games, maybe he might sometimes do it during practices but i just don't see that in games. I do see Scheifele and Wheeler dog it back to bench for line changes sometimes, does that mean they aren't giving 100%. We are trying too hard to find a problem within this team if you ask me.

Another note is that players who aren't fast are often perceived as not giving effort whereas waterbug players are often perceived as giving more effort, even though it's all often just visual. Good examples are Antropov and Wellwood vs James Wright.

 

[Jets 31]

Another note is that players who aren't fast are often perceived as not giving effort whereas waterbug players are often perceived as giving more effort, even though it's all often just visual. Good examples are Antropov and Wellwood vs James Wright.

Totally agree, Malkin never looks like he's breaking a sweat.