Post-Game Talk: Laine hits 30! 5-4 Leafs

[Ducky10]

But I am open to you showing me how he sucked, and am willing to go over points of the game that support this notion.

If you are not willing to make factual notes of bad play, and the game time they occured, I question whether you believe your assessment of Melch's game Tuesday night.

To say he sucked as bad as you say he did, it should be an easy excercise to watch the game and log the events that support this, there should be ample examples to back up your claim.

I did rewatch and I could only find 2 solid instances of this, and several examples of smart productive plays he made.

This is not me acting greater than thow. I am open to being wrong here, but please show me?

Oh Lord, I gave my assessment of what I think he didn't do well back in this thread, I don't need to make play by play factual notes, I have a life FFS (debatable obviously based on how much time I spend here). You're looking for big event, obvious errors he made, I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about what I saw in him when certain plays needed to be made to help the Jets more quickly counter attack and help their transition game, plays he was unable to make and unable to make the right read on. If you're happy with him making the odd pass, blocking a few shots and chipping the puck up and out and alleviating pressure, that's great for you, I was never talking about that ****, any passable Dman can do that, which is why we need to go beyond that.

He was there, he played safe, he didn't make any nuclear errors that single handedly robbed the Jets of victory but he certainly wasn't a player that helped to do anything to help win the game or help in areas in which gives them a better chance to win hockey games on a regular basis.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

There's a critical two seconds missing there. Matthias has to take away the cross seam from Matthews.

Point man sneaking down low on a powerplay is really hard to contain, with the obvious trade-off being that it's a guaranteed odd man rush or breakaway if there's a clean turnover. In reality, neither Matthias nor Melchiori is going to get a check on Nylander, but Melchiori is in far better position to take away the shooting lane and maybe get Nylander hesitating on the shot, which gives Helle time to get across.

It was a smart/lucky play by the Leafs and Melchiori ultimately deserves little blame for the goal, but it is an example of how slowly he reacts. Toby, as much as everyone seems to crap on him here, is exactly the guy you'd want on that play. He's great at anticipating.

I agree that it was highly unlikely either defender stops the shot, but I disagree with who had the better opportunity to do so.

If Mathias was paying attention to the high winger instead of watching the shooter, who was already being checked by Tanev, he would have cut that shooting lane off well in advance of the shot just by backing up with a rushing NYlander.

Its very unreasonable to expect a Dman to understand that the shot was a bank pass, understand what is happening behind you when your assignment is in front, break off your assignment instantly and provide some resistance to the shooter.

To make that play would have been quite impressive, and he still would have been covering up for Mathias's lost coverage.

 

[Ducky10]

Corsi was referenced a few pages back.

Melch is down low playing off Komarov, then Hyman. Mathews gets the puck, faces up for the shot, Mathias is watching the shooter, who was also being watched by Tanev. Melch has his man tagged in front, Mathias has no one. When Nylander creeps from the point he automatically becomes Mathiases responsibility, Hyman and Komorov are Melchs responsibility.

The power play goal. Nylander starts off from our blue line, holding the point position. He should be watched by Mathias:

Not in that frame, Matthias needs to shade to the middle and watch Hyman, cut off the passing lane to the back door if Nylander comes low and pop up top if the puck came back across the top to Nylander, all of which he was in position to do. Personally I don't think at this stage Komarov is much of a danger and Melch is playing to low on him and not preventing a screen anyway, he should be a bit further up top maintaining the box. When the puck comes across to Matthews Tanev can step up on him (in the game he way over committed to the shooter, which was a large problem), Morrissey can collapse on Komarov and Melch can watch the back door, which is where Nylander came from, not that the play was Melch's fault, it was a lucky bounce. I also think Melch's feet were in a bad position defensively which contributed to his slower reaction, Tanev's as well (coaching).

There is now way a down low dman is going to not watch the shot, turn around, ignore his net assignments and tag off on the creeping blue line player. Mathias was sleeping there.

I'm not convinced any of them were in a great spot at this point, that' a tough play with such a bounce, if the puck caroms any wider it's probably a 2-1 for the Jets the other way. I will say in that frame, Melch looks to be the least aware of where the puck is of all four players, his body position is almost entirely the other way, a result of his previous positioning, Mark Stuart is famous for this, coincidence?

Anyway, that's not a play I blame on Melch, but there is lots to critique.

 

[Huffer]

As strange as this discussion started, I have to say, I really enjoyed the last few posts with screenshots, and actual discussion of what's happening on the ice.

I really wish there was more of this type of detailed discussion here.

 

[ps241]

On that note, I think we'll lock this thread up tonight (or earlier).

Good call Hank I believe we have reached a stalemate

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Oh Lord, I gave my assessment of what I think he didn't do well back in this thread, I don't need to make play by play factual notes, I have a life FFS (debatable obviously based on how much time I spend here). You're looking for big event, obvious errors he made, I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about what I saw in him when certain plays needed to be made to help the Jets more quickly counter attack and help their transition game, plays he was unable to make and unable to make the right read on. If you're happy with him making the odd pass, blocking a few shots and chipping the puck up and out and alleviating pressure, that's great for you, I was never talking about that ****, any passable Dman can do that, which is why we need to go beyond that.

He was there, he played safe, he didn't make any nuclear errors that single handedly robbed the Jets of victory but he certainly wasn't a player that helped to do anything to help win the game or help in areas in which gives them a better chance to win hockey games on a regular basis.

So you saw a type of play that our ENTIRE Defense demonstrated, yet you single Melch out as sucking badly?

And to say someone sucks for playing a safe style game is a little out in left field dont you think? Maybe you can state he is a little to conservative for your liking, but to attack a player and not back it up, then state that he didnt screw up didnt do anything that bad, you just dislike his style of play, well that is very different than saying a played sucked badly.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Not in that frame, Matthias needs to shade to the middle and watch Hyman, cut off the passing lane to the back door if Nylander comes low and pop up top if the puck came back across the top to Nylander, all of which he was in position to do. Personally I don't think at this stage Komarov is much of a danger and Melch is playing to low on him and not preventing a screen anyway, he should be a bit further up top maintaining the box. When the puck comes across to Matthews Tanev can step up on him (in the game he way over committed to the shooter, which was a large problem), Morrissey can collapse on Komarov and Melch can watch the back door, which is where Nylander came from, not that the play was Melch's fault, it was a lucky bounce. I also think Melch's feet were in a bad position defensively which contributed to his slower reaction, Tanev's as well (coaching).



I'm not convinced any of them were in a great spot at this point, that' a tough play with such a bounce, if the puck caroms any wider it's probably a 2-1 for the Jets the other way. I will say in that frame, Melch looks to be the least aware of where the puck is of all four players, his body position is almost entirely the other way, a result of his previous positioning, Mark Stuart is famous for this, coincidence?

Anyway, that's not a play I blame on Melch, but there is lots to critique.

Actually, Morrissey should man Komorov, Melch should have Hyman, Mathias should have been watchign Nylander, and Tanev on the shooter, if everyone switched properly.

 

[TheDeuce]

Good call Hank I believe we have reached a stalemate

Not in Gary Bettman's NHL! Off to a shootout.




m.

 

[Ducky10]

So you saw a type of play that our ENTIRE Defense demonstrated, yet you single Melch out as sucking badly?

And to say someone sucks for playing a safe style game is a little out in left field dont you think? Maybe you can state he is a little to conservative for your liking, but to attack a player and not back it up, then state that he didnt screw up didnt do anything that bad, you just dislike his style of play, well that is very different than saying a played sucked badly.

Oy vey, attack? Not back it up? You're tone deaf

I'm done.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

As strange as this discussion started, I have to say, I really enjoyed the last few posts with screenshots, and actual discussion of what's happening on the ice.

I really wish there was more of this type of detailed discussion here.

Its my hope one day that forums like this one will have a built in app that does it seemlessly within a post.

Its annoying to screen shot, copy and paste, edit, then upload, then link, but I agree, it adds alot to the discussion, and it can support or distinguish most arguments.

 

[ecolad]

As strange as this discussion started, I have to say, I really enjoyed the last few posts with screenshots, and actual discussion of what's happening on the ice.

I really wish there was more of this type of detailed discussion here.

Let`s use these two screenshots to simply focus on the PK- notice the Jets are using what most call a Diamond formation. The difficulty with this formation is exactly what we are experiencing here -- it can be difficult to identify individual coverage responsibilities. If we can have legitimate differences of view even after- the-fact with the help of screenshots, imagine the potential for breakdown during the heat of battle.

IMO, the best PK formation of all is the "wedge+1", whereby Morrissey and Melchiori would both maintain normal low position,forming a base to the wedge, with Mathias forming a top in the approximate position he shows. Tanev being the +1 would have responsibility to aggressively pursue whomever has the puck above the circles ( Mathews in this case). As the puck moves from side to side of the ice, Tanev would basically trade positions with Mathias such that the aggressive puck pressure could be maintained.

With the "wedge+1"in play, the responsibility for monitoring Nylander would rest with the head of the wedge, that being Mathias in this hypothetical.

The great benefit to using this formation lies in it`s potential to utilize pressure to disrupt setup plays and even create a few turnovers and breakaways.

 

[Duke749]

The issue I find with the diamond is, in my humble opinion, that it seems too easy to leave someone open down low. Perhaps with the right players it could be effective, but I find it naive to assume everyone can make the same reads. Reality is some guys can't think the game at a high enough level.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

good post Ecolad, and I agree with Duke, the diamond leaves you open to low net presence. and can break down quickly with lost assignments. I prefer the the wedge, and I still do not mind the old fashion box, if you have some stick lenght on the ice.

 

[John Agar]

Good call Hank I believe we have reached a stalemate

I am not so sure...

Things have been kick started...

I can't supply you with a break down of each posters opposing points...

I offer these graphics instead and I hope they shed some light on this pitched battle:

I pause now and eagerly await further discourse...

 

[Ducky10]

The diamond is most useful against an Umbrella, if teams are running of off the half wall it's way too wide open, mostly in the slot. It requires a lot of communication to play it tighter and be able to collapse it like you can with a box, your angles playing the diamond have to be really good or else there are too many lanes open and it requires good reads to prevent the cross ice. If teams aren't running an Umbrella you're better off in a box.

The wedge+1 is an even more aggressive PK and I'm not so sure it's suited to the Jets, certainly not with Stu and Chiarot as mainstays out there. Tons of shifting, constant rotation and high communication, it's the formation most likely to leave back door plays open if someone misses a read, as well as 10 bell chances from the slot. The Jets struggle mightily running formations in their own end to begin with, I'm not sure a system that requires the communication that the wedge does will be their forte, not yet anyway. They have the forwards quick enough to pressure the puck, although Lowry and Thor aren't either of them, so if they went with a wedge+1, that would have to change.

The passive box is probably the best formation for the Jets to run, considering the personnel they run. Keep play to the outside, collapse the middle and don't give up the big chance. No matter what they run though, they need to run it cohesively and get their reads and angles right, something they just don't do well. They constantly over shift, over pursue, leave shooting and passing lanes wide open and don't box out. That can partly be attributed to personnel, but it's mostly on coaching, it's been brutal.

 

[Eyeseeing]

I am not so sure...

Things have been kick started...

I can't supply you with a break down of each posters opposing points...

I offer these graphics instead and I hope they shed some light on this pitched battle:

I pause now and eagerly await further discourse...

Tie between you and Blue Shakehead as my favourite posters
Sip is up there too as he sounds like a crusty old fart like me

 

[yukonfloyd*]

Okay, so I'm actually reading a thread where several pages are dedicated to whether Julian Melchiori's ONE GAME in the NHL was good or bad... this is really happening, right?

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Let's move on to the bye week thread, shall we.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2193225