Kyle Dubas Discussion

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

He did a great job this off season, I wouldn't have kept 15th overall but he did address the defense with Brodie and Bogosian so it's all good.

Now this is HIS team there are no more excuses for him, he's either going to seen as a genius or this team fails and it's HIS fault.

There needs to be REAL progress round 1 is no longer good enough and I'm not sure round 2 is either.

 

[Garthinater]

There are definitely primary goals like the long term pursuit of playoff success and championship runs. But in the short term you can also earn favourable marks by positioning the team better or winning a trade or bringing on a better coach, etc.

Trades are subjective while playoff success is not.

Last year I was told over and over that dubas won the kadri trade. His supporters were saying it was such a steal for us. Turns out they were quite wrong.

 

[ottomaddox]

He did a great job this off season, I wouldn't have kept 15th overall but he did address the defense with Brodie and Bogosian so it's all good.

Now this is HIS team there are no more excuses for him, he's either going to seen as a genius or this team fails and it's HIS fault.

There needs to be REAL progress round 1 is no longer good enough and I'm not sure round 2 is either.

I've been pretty critical of Dubas, but I like a few of his offseason moves. More than anything "The Big 4" really have to come through. Likely there will be a shortened season, so no one in this group can afford to slowly hit their stride. Dubas went to bat for them. Time to pay it back.

 

[Bomber0104]

Trades are subjective while playoff success is not.

Last year I was told over and over that dubas won the kadri trade. His supporters were saying it was such a steal for us. Turns out they were quite wrong.

The Leafs are always the off-season Champions. It's always been that way and always will be.

That's why no one should really put too much stock into a poll about the GM made during the off-season.

If you took a poll in 2009, most everyone here was favorable towards Brian Burke's off-season (Kessel trade, Komisarek/Beauch/Orr signings, etc) before the team finished 2nd last.

I know, I know, this time it's different..

 

[ACC1224]

He did a great job this off season, I wouldn't have kept 15th overall but he did address the defense with Brodie and Bogosian so it's all good.

Now this is HIS team there are no more excuses for him, he's either going to seen as a genius or this team fails and it's HIS fault.

There needs to be REAL progress round 1 is no longer good enough and I'm not sure round 2 is either.

Yep on paper it looks like he had a great off season. Hopefully that translates into success on the ice. Winning the off season is nice, most would rather they win the post season.

 

[ottomaddox]

Yep on paper it looks like he had a great off season. Hopefully that translates into success on the ice. Winning the off season is nice, most would rather they win the post season.

This progress because at one point fans only wanted to win the draft lottery.

 

[Fogelhund]

The Leafs are always the off-season Champions. It's always been that way and always will be.

That's why no one should really put too much stock into a poll about the GM made during the off-season.

If you took a poll in 2009, most everyone here was favorable towards Brian Burke's off-season (Kessel trade, Komisarek/Beauch/Orr signings, etc) before the team finished 2nd last.

I know, I know, this time it's different..

I think if you are a pragmatic realist, you've probably looked at this team the last few years, and questioned whether the defence was good enough before the season even started. Maybe we hoped for better, but knew. Sure, most people are probably optimists, no argument there, but there are realists... and a number of people who are pessimistic on everything too.

Barrie and Ceci didn't address anything we really needed last year, that was obvious. This year we picked up Lehtonen, Bogo and Brodie... Who knows what Lehtonen is in the NHL, but Brodie really should help, and Bogo provides physicality in the #6/7 spot. I think there is good reason to be a little more optimistic than normal... off season Champions... no... our young three guns really need to learn to compete more, play a more complete game, do what it takes to win. These guys, and Tavares, need to be the difference makers, the team leaders in every way. Three guys, paid at elite NHL talent level, so they really need to become that Elite NHL talent, in every manner. That's the question going into this year... can our "elite" talent, be "elite" in every way? They can score, they can do amazing things with the puck, but can they "win"?

As an aside, Beauchemin should have been a very good addition to the Leafs. He was very good before we obtained him, and very good after he left us... Just not so good while with the Leafs, he just didn't fit in. Komisarek should have been a decent addition, but then just broke down with injuries.

But, you are right... some things look great on paper, and then aren't. Some things look mediocre, and are good..... The players, the team, the coaches, have to find a way to not only meet expectations of that team on paper, but find a way to maximize the team, and be greater than just the sum of the parts. Adding Thornton is interesting... he's not exactly a perennial winner, but he is experienced and vocal... maybe he's the guy, who helps the young guns find ways to become winners??

I think we've addressed some of the short-comings this team had last year. Did we bring in enough grit? That's still a question mark...but then, our skill guys need to bring a bit more grit to their game too.... Matty started that a bit at times last year, we need more of that commitment.

Interesting enough, our hits leaders on forward last year were; Timashov, Kapanen, Gauthier and then Moore. All not to be seen this coming year.

We've got what looks to be a better surrounding cast... but, it's up to our core young guys, to become winners.....

Edit - Dubas can do everything within his power, to build a complete, competitive team... He can put all the parts together... but, it's up to the players, to really become the winners. There are no spreadsheets, for the intangible fight to win.

 

[Bomber0104]

I think if you are a pragmatic realist, you've probably looked at this team the last few years, and questioned whether the defence was good enough before the season even started. Maybe we hoped for better, but knew. Sure, most people are probably optimists, no argument there, but there are realists... and a number of people who are pessimistic on everything too.

Barrie and Ceci didn't address anything we really needed last year, that was obvious. This year we picked up Lehtonen, Bogo and Brodie... Who knows what Lehtonen is in the NHL, but Brodie really should help, and Bogo provides physicality in the #6/7 spot. I think there is good reason to be a little more optimistic than normal... off season Champions... no... our young three guns really need to learn to compete more, play a more complete game, do what it takes to win. These guys, and Tavares, need to be the difference makers, the team leaders in every way. Three guys, paid at elite NHL talent level, so they really need to become that Elite NHL talent, in every manner. That's the question going into this year... can our "elite" talent, be "elite" in every way? They can score, they can do amazing things with the puck, but can they "win"?

As an aside, Beauchemin should have been a very good addition to the Leafs. He was very good before we obtained him, and very good after he left us... Just not so good while with the Leafs, he just didn't fit in. Komisarek should have been a decent addition, but then just broke down with injuries.

But, you are right... some things look great on paper, and then aren't. Some things look mediocre, and are good..... The players, the team, the coaches, have to find a way to not only meet expectations of that team on paper, but find a way to maximize the team, and be greater than just the sum of the parts. Adding Thornton is interesting... he's not exactly a perennial winner, but he is experienced and vocal... maybe he's the guy, who helps the young guns find ways to become winners??

I think we've addressed some of the short-comings this team had last year. Did we bring in enough grit? That's still a question mark...but then, our skill guys need to bring a bit more grit to their game too.... Matty started that a bit at times last year, we need more of that commitment.

Interesting enough, our hits leaders on forward last year were; Timashov, Kapanen, Gauthier and then Moore. All not to be seen this coming year.

We've got what looks to be a better surrounding cast... but, it's up to our core young guys, to become winners.....

Edit - Dubas can do everything within his power, to build a complete, competitive team... He can put all the parts together... but, it's up to the players, to really become the winners. There are no spreadsheets, for the intangible fight to win.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

Truth be told, I'm actually far more interested in seeing this iteration of the team than last year's even though the hype was way higher.

All the heat the big guns have been taking may actually motivate them to achieve something beyond individual stats, social media followers, and bigger bank accounts.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Kapanen is going to be playing with Crosby on the top line i read. His points will go up. The cap saving alone was reason to move him. The return looks good nonetheless.
Johnsson was great cap relief which was needed for other areas along with the Kappy money.
Kappy and Johnsson were really cap dumps. The fact the return was Amirov,Hallander and Anderson and $6,600,000 cap space was incredible.
That money improved the defense and allowed the depth to improve for not only this year but years to follow with the prospects.
This defense is improved no doubt but Rielly has to get his game back for it to be a above average upgrade. The 72 point guy he was is not expected/ necessary. A dozen goals and 40 assists type number would be awesome.

That said, Rielly’s contract will be a drag on depth when it cones up for renewal. I don’t see the cap possibly going up by that time. We wanted the defense improved so we definitely got that. We wanted cap flexibility and got that with all the 1 year deals. We wanted toughness and a quality backup and got that.
It’s on the players that are supposed to lead to get it done. Dubas has done sufficiently what we generally wanted. I think he has delivered and the media and beliefs that he is under the gun for his job is flawed thinking everything considered.
I’d say Dubas done all he could and maintained flexibility if it isn’t just right yet.
The prospect pool is solid also. Its improved significantly actually through this. I am surprised and pleased with the manoeuvres.

 

[Stephen]

Trades are subjective while playoff success is not.

Last year I was told over and over that dubas won the kadri trade. His supporters were saying it was such a steal for us. Turns out they were quite wrong.

I think it’s possible for a fan to hold two somewhat conflicting thoughts in their head and then evolve those opinions depending on what happens next year. Like:

“Dubas has failed to build a winner in the two years, and I didn’t like the way he managed some of the assets along the way, but I think the moves that were made were promising for X, Y, Z on paper. We shall see how it plays out on the ice.”

 

[Wafflewhipper]

That pretty much sums up my thoughts as well.

Truth be told, I'm actually far more interested in seeing this iteration of the team than last year's even though the hype was way higher.

All the heat the big guns have been taking may actually motivate them to achieve something beyond individual stats, social media followers, and bigger bank accounts.

I think the top players will mature easily in the next couple years.

 

[meefer]

Outside of the Kadri trade (and I believe Kerfoot will have more success this year) and the contract to Marner, I'm pretty happy with Kyle's tenure. We finally have a partner for Rielly and thus two capable D pairings with the remaining players certainly able to form a decent 3rd pair. He appears to have added 3 top quality players via the draft: Sandin, Robertson, and Amirov. Given our positions in the last 3 drafts these players look to be excellent choices. The Babcock saga could have been settled earlier, it appears KD wanted to move on after the playoff loss but was over-ruled, and we shall see how this new group of coaches will lead the team forward, I'm hopeful. What I like the most is his ability to recognize his own weaknesses/biases. While he prioritizes skill and intelligence, he's accepted that grit and 'heaviness' have a role. Dubas may have been too young to take over this team, but I think he's done a good job of learning on the job, and as the years pass, whether he remains with the Leafs or otherwise, he's going to have a pretty successful career. I think he's a better GM today than when he took the job, and I think he will keep improving as the years pass.

That said, this year is pivotal. Tavares is a known quantity. We're about to see the buy in from MMN. If they produce as expected, if they lead, the Leafs should do well. If one or more takes their foot off the gas for an extended time, or craps the bed in the playoffs, Dubas will have a career defining choice to make come next offseason.

 

[hobarth]

It sometimes feels like Kadri has somehow become the perfect player after he was traded, in some people's minds. We know Kadri, we know how inconsistent he is from game to game, month to month and year to year, offensively, physically, defensively but mostly mentally. He had a good year this year because of injuries and replacing the injured on McKinnon's line, is he a lock to do the same next year, no, especially if McKinnon's linemates don't get injured. Babs had not interest in playing Kadri beyond the 3rd line, no matter what, so at $4.5 mil. per Kadri was too expensive for TO and I expect him to become too expensive for Colorado, soon.

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot was a great trade for TO especially considering Colorado ate some of Barrie's money.

 

[Fogelhund]

It sometimes feels like Kadri has somehow become the perfect player after he was traded, in some people's minds. We know Kadri, we know how inconsistent he is from game to game, month to month and year to year, offensively, physically, defensively but mostly mentally. He had a good year this year because of injuries and replacing the injured on McKinnon's line, is he a lock to do the same next year, no, especially if McKinnon's linemates don't get injured. Babs had not interest in playing Kadri beyond the 3rd line, no matter what, so at $4.5 mil. per Kadri was too expensive for TO and I expect him to become too expensive for Colorado, soon.

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot was a great trade for TO especially considering Colorado ate some of Barrie's money.

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot, may very well have been the only trade available... I don't know, but I doubt that there were many options.

 

[meefer]

It sometimes feels like Kadri has somehow become the perfect player after he was traded, in some people's minds. We know Kadri, we know how inconsistent he is from game to game, month to month and year to year, offensively, physically, defensively but mostly mentally. He had a good year this year because of injuries and replacing the injured on McKinnon's line, is he a lock to do the same next year, no, especially if McKinnon's linemates don't get injured. Babs had not interest in playing Kadri beyond the 3rd line, no matter what, so at $4.5 mil. per Kadri was too expensive for TO and I expect him to become too expensive for Colorado, soon.

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot was a great trade for TO especially considering Colorado ate some of Barrie's money.

To be clear about my earlier comment, I was a fan of the trade when it occurred. I didn't pay enough attention to those saying Barrie was weak in his own zone. I learned I was wrong. However, a GM should be aware of those types of shortcomings. Now, did Babcock ruin a chance for a smoother transition? Perhaps. But in this case, for me, the GM overplayed his tendencies towards offense. Regardless, I'm of the opinion that Kerfoot will be an intriguing player for us this year, I expect better than last. And, we now have Brodin. Dubas is learning on the job, a good thing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It sometimes feels like Kadri has somehow become the perfect player after he was traded, in some people's minds. We know Kadri, we know how inconsistent he is from game to game, month to month and year to year, offensively, physically, defensively but mostly mentally.

Yep. When players are here, people here tend to focus solely on the negative aspects of the player, and ignore the positives. When players are somewhere else, people here tend to focus solely on the positive aspects of the player, and ignore the negatives.

In actuality, the Kadri trade was good value, and addressed something we desperately needed. Even with both Kerfoot and Barrie having relatively down years for a variety of reasons (broken face, Babcock trying to reinvent veteran players instead of playing them to their strengths, being thrown around the lineup due to injuries), they were pretty undervalued last year. We were better with Kerfoot/Barrie than we would have been with Kadri and whatever defenseman we could have signed for 1.75m or less. Kadri's 2018-2019 contributions were fairly easily replaced.

 

[Buttsy]

Kyle is “all in” with regards to Sheldon. This guy is going to sink our GM or make him look like a genius. The one thing I really like about SK is his player management in the Columbus series. Yes we lost but if you are going to have the Big 4 like we do for goodness sakes come playoff time let them play! Rolling 4 lines is not an option in must win games for this team. Overall team defence has to improve, our D and goaltending are fine but they can’t be left to defend against 3 forwards in our zone constantly. As mentioned this season is the time to go deep into the playoffs and continue the development of the Big 3, as Tavares of course is who he is at this point. IMO anyway ......

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Yep. When players are here, people here tend to focus solely on the negative aspects of the player, and ignore the positives. When players are somewhere else, people here tend to focus solely on the positive aspects of the player, and ignore the negatives.

In actuality, the Kadri trade was good value, and addressed something we desperately needed. Even with both Kerfoot and Barrie having relatively down years for a variety of reasons (broken face, Babcock trying to reinvent veteran players instead of playing them to their strengths, being thrown around the lineup due to injuries), they were pretty undervalued last year. We were better with Kerfoot/Barrie than we would have been with Kadri and whatever defenseman we could have signed for 1.75m or less. Kadri's 2018-2019 contributions were fairly easily replaced.

I would rather have Kadri for a $1,000,000 more than Kerfoot. It was a bad trade and I actually like what Dubas has done on the entirety of his work. It was a bad trade. It would mean a cap management of $1,000,000 difference and Kadri quality in the line-up. We were not better for doing that trade bro. Not by a long shot then and now. It’s the Engvall difference in money. Easily overcome is what i am saying.

 

[IPS]

It sometimes feels like Kadri has somehow become the perfect player after he was traded, in some people's minds. We know Kadri, we know how inconsistent he is from game to game, month to month and year to year, offensively, physically, defensively but mostly mentally. He had a good year this year because of injuries and replacing the injured on McKinnon's line, is he a lock to do the same next year, no, especially if McKinnon's linemates don't get injured. Babs had not interest in playing Kadri beyond the 3rd line, no matter what, so at $4.5 mil. per Kadri was too expensive for TO and I expect him to become too expensive for Colorado, soon.

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot was a great trade for TO especially considering Colorado ate some of Barrie's money.

I wanted to see Kadri tried on the wing alongside Tavares or Matthews, I think he would have done great. Too bad our coach was mind-numbingly stubborn and would have never tried it.

 

[A1LeafNation]

I would rather have Kadri for a $1,000,000 more than Kerfoot. It was a bad trade and I actually like what Dubas has done on the entirety of his work. It was a bad trade. It would mean a cap management of $1,000,000 difference and Kadri quality in the line-up. We were not better for doing that trade bro. Not by a long shot then and now. It’s the Engvall difference in money. Easily overcome is what i am saying.

I definitely miss Kadris playoff contributions.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Kyle is “all in” with regards to Sheldon. This guy is going to sink our GM or make him look like a genius. The one thing I really like about SK is his player management in the Columbus series. Yes we lost but if you are going to have the Big 4 like we do for goodness sakes come playoff time let them play! Rolling 4 lines is not an option in must win games for this team. Overall team defence has to improve, our D and goaltending are fine but they can’t be left to defend against 3 forwards in our zone constantly. As mentioned this season is the time to go deep into the playoffs and continue the development of the Big 3, as Tavares of course is who he is at this point. IMO anyway ......

Dubas is not in this “hot seat”, it’s imagined and implied but fictional. Keefe making him look good is a narrative but it’s really true. For me personally i view it as the players need to be better on the whole in their play. Dubas is safe to continue tweeking and building or this franchise is back to knee jerk moves. Stability will pay off in every faucet of the franchise if it’s allowed to run it’s course. Champions take time build. So lets not get impatient here in our thinking. I don’t see us as a championship team right now and i love all the moves made so far. Hopeful sure but not convinced management has it nailed down here. There is reason i say this but its long winded to explain right now.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I definitely miss Kadris playoff contributions.

If i though you were joking i would ignore this. Since you aren’t I’ll ignore this

 

[Dekes For Days]

I would rather have Kadri for a $1,000,000 more than Kerfoot.

Whether you would or wouldn't is irrelevant. That's not all that was involved in the trade, and we have only seen a small portion of how it has played out. Kadri's impact was replaced by Kerfoot at ES and Nylander on the PP, and it's not that hard to replace nothing in the playoffs. What was desperately needed was defensemen, and say what you want about Barrie being disappointing relative to expectations and what he is capable of, but there's a good case that his presence over whatever low-end player we could have gotten for a maximum of 1.75m could have been the difference between playoffs and no playoffs, if everything else had played out the same (other than Covid).

And beyond that, what do you think would have happened if we got the same injuries to our defense that we got this year, but didn't have Barrie, Holl didn't unexpectedly break out, and Dermott struggled coming back from his major off-season surgery? Is Kadri going to suddenly become a defensemen? What you need isn't always the same as what you want.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Whether you would or wouldn't is irrelevant. That's not all that was involved in the trade, and we have only seen a small portion of how it has played out. Kadri's impact was replaced by Kerfoot at ES and Nylander on the PP, and it's not that hard to replace nothing in the playoffs. What was desperately needed was defensemen, and say what you want about Barrie being disappointing relative to expectations and what he is capable of, but there's a good case that his presence over whatever low-end player we could have gotten for a maximum of 1.75m could have been the difference between playoffs and no playoffs, if everything else had played out the same (other than Covid).

And beyond that, what do you think would have happened if we got the same injuries to our defense that we got this year, but didn't have Barrie, Holl didn't unexpectedly break out, and Dermott struggled coming back from his major off-season surgery? Is Kadri going to suddenly become a defensemen? What you need isn't always the same as what you want.

What we think is not irrelevant Son. Just get that straight

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Gotta say, I thought he did well this off season. Unfortunately, last year was the year that mattered.