Player Discussion: Kristian Vesalainen [Update: Signed ELC]

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I sincerely believe that Granlund and Armia would have become even better if they had just played longer in Europe and just taken care of their physical development a bit longer per season. Shorter season, so more time to train their physics in the off season. In Granlund’s case though it’s hard to say for sure. He for sure has tunred out very good anyway. So I can’t at least claim that the AHL was really harmaus for him.

Armia is a grey colored 3rd or 4th liner that I was in fact originally projecting Rantanen pretty much to become. So in Armia’s case I don't see much of positive things with how the AHL ”developed” him. But this is probably more of a matter of taste. I’m just not really at all enthusiastic about his type of players. Well, sure he might be kind of useful for team Finland as a PK Specialist and a pretty good 4th liner, but by all means he is nothing like priceless in those roles even for team Finland. Just not at all the player that he should have had potential of becoming.

Most players don't reach their full potential, it's really hard to say what a prospect's potential is and why someone doesn't meet it.

Armia didn't reach the potential he had when he was drafted, but he has definitely developed since then into a valuable player. I think it is incredibly hard to determine what affects development directly and how to measure the impact. How do you know the players that were more successful coming from Finland or other countries in Europe were not more successful for reasons other than where they played? Or that they wouldn't have been just as or even more successful if they came over to the AHL? Development is such an individual process that I think it is more important that the player themselves are comfortable with what they are doing and confident that what they are doing is right for them.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with you or a player preferring to develop longer in their home country, but writing off the AHL as a place to avoid at all costs and not good for development is imo, stupid.

 

[Ippenator]

Most players don't reach their full potential, it's really hard to say what a prospect's potential is and why someone doesn't meet it.

Armia didn't reach the potential he had when he was drafted, but he has definitely developed since then into a valuable player. I think it is incredibly hard to determine what affects development directly and how to measure the impact. How do you know the players that were more successful coming from Finland or other countries in Europe were not more successful for reasons other than where they played? Or that they wouldn't have been just as or even more successful if they came over to the AHL? Development is such an individual process that I think it is more important that the player themselves are comfortable with what they are doing and confident that what they are doing is right for them.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with you or a player preferring to develop longer in their home country, but writing off the AHL as a place to avoid at all costs and not good for development is imo, stupid.

Sorry btw if I make a too harsh impression on this. I’m still also not claiming that AHL route can’t work even extremely well for some European youngsters.

As we have discussed, Rantanen is definitely proof of how it can work even extremely well. My point was though that there are still many of the Europeans that it really doesn't work well for after all. And I think a big reason is still the way how the AHL road is really built more for the North American approach and mentality than for the European approach and mentality in general, which is definitely fine and how it should be even, but it can be still quite often too different and difficult for a European youngster to be and stay well enough motivated on that road.

The European way of playing shorter seasons and training a bit longer in the off season, but with the possibility to get to play also some international top class games is a pretty good and appealing road for many young Europeans. The ones taking the AHL route need to have a special kind of attitude to succeed. And as Rantanen for sure has showed, that can in the best case lead into exceptional results. But honestly I think that diamonds like him are after all extremely rare, and thus I see more risks with the player development for the Europeans that are not as mentally strong, mature and good with adjusting to the new environment, as Rantanen was as a youngster.

 

[FinPanda]

Rantanen was build to play on the small ice, that's why AHL worked so well for him.

I don't get Vesalainen's decision but I don't totally hate it. He is a very passionate guy who does what he thinks is the best for him. If he saw he has only chance to play 4th line role with the Jets, why not play in the KHL and make a bit more money than the AHL and be ready next year to play with the Jets.

Also good for Finnish WJC team.

 

[abax44]

I guess you know that Laine trains with the same trainer that Rantanen trains with? I wonder how good Rantanen would be then if you think that he would also be a lot better if he would train with some North American trainers? Probably hitting 60 points right about now, eh? Maybe getting a 240 points season when it’s all said and done?

If he had a good trainer he'd be better, obviously. 240 points might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I don't see why he couldn't get 210, or even 212 pts.

 

[bustamente]

Wherever he ends up this year I hope that he works on his game and he continue's to improve, nothing is given to you in the NHL and he was not ready.

 

[sipowicz]

So does Versa-Laine-Lite want to play in the NHL one day or in Europe, the North American AHL game should be his best route to playing a north-south game and not east-west and everywhere but loose Euro style (how did that style work out for the bum Burmi?)

 

[BB88]

Pulkkinen just isn't that good.

Puljujärvi is an interesting case, I'm not sure that blaming his development on playing in the AHL makes sense though, I'd be more inclined to blame the lack of plan for him where he was going back and forth between the AHL and NHL and playing 4th linemates to playing top 6 minutes.

Granlund turned out pretty good after playing in the AHL, Armia as well. You referred to it as 'a place to avoid at all costs' when there is nothing wrong with playing there. I also have no issue with him playing for Jokerit if that's what he feels like is best for himself right now, he negotiated in the out clause and he has the right to use it. Hopefully he develops and plays great over there.

Puljus/Edmontons problem is that Edmonton has never actually bothered to try to develop him, it's been a mess situation.
But with Edmonton it's not the biggest surprise in the World.

Vesalainen could have easily gotten into WJC from AHL, and with a strong showing to Worlds later in the season if he wanted to.

Should have stayed to get comfortable in NA rink and be ready next year.

& if we are talking of Mikael Granlund I thought he stayed for too long in Europe, getting to NA was a shock to him and his game/physique wasn't where it should have been.
The earlier these kids know what it takes to make it the better.

 

[Whileee]

Ya thank God Rantanen never played in the AHL.

Oh wait.

Rantanen seems incredibly focused on being the very best he can be as an NHLer.

 

[PhilJets]

Cant Compare Rantanen here.

The kid is good but he plays 22 minutes a game with arguably a top 7 c in the league.

He should get his points if he has the talent and he has.

Ves and Niku should have been taken in that Finland games even as extras . But ship has sailed.

 

[mcpw]

about the financial aspect: KHL salaries aren't public, but the salaries of Avtomobilist, one of the better KHL teams outside of the SKA/CSKA bubble, were published in sports-express (here).

Their 10th-highest paid forward, young 23-yo Anatoli Golyshev, who has 19 points in 23 games right now, has a base salary of 20M rubles plus performance bonuses of another 20M rubles. 20M rubles are US$300k at the current exchange rate. Of course his salary is so low because he's young. (their highest base salary is 150M rubles -- US$2.275M for Nigel Dawes)

If Vesalainen would stay with the Moose, and the Jets won't call him up for reasons (*cough* slide rule *cough*), he would make US$53,817 during the remainder of the season. So even if Jokerit would only pay him as much as Avto's 10th highest paid forward, and only for slightly more than half a season (Jokerit have played 26/62 games so far), that's still more than $100k he's losing out on by staying in Winnipeg, and that doesn't even account for bonuses, or the difference between being paid in EUR vs RUB.

I'm all for young men making smart decisions. And seriously, the KHL isn't bad.

 

[TannedBum]

I’m just not really at all enthusiastic about his type of players. Well, sure he might be kind of useful for team Finland as a PK Specialist and a pretty good 4th liner, but by all means he is nothing like priceless in those roles even for team Finland. Just not at all the player that he should have had potential of becoming.

Stop embarrassing yourself already.

 

[KingBogo]

I remember posting this summer that I thought it likely that KV would return to Europe if he didn't stick with the Jets and was okay with it then and I'm okay with it now. I understand the decision and wish him well. He will be another prospect to watch closely at the WJC and I hope the Finnish posters keep us up to date with how he is doing with Jokerit. Any first hand viewing reports would be great to hear about.

 

[Ippenator]

Stop embarrassing yourself already.

So you think he would be in a higher ranked line than 4th line, in team Finland in a best against best tournament? Rantanen, Laine, Granlund(s), Teräväinen, Kapanen, Donskoi, Lehkonen and most probably also Kotkaniemi, Vesalainen, Borgström and Tolvanen should be all better options as wingers than Armia for a 3rd line or higher ranked line in team Finland. If you suggest him as higher ranked than at least the first seven wingers that I listed, then someone is for sure embarrassing himself here, and it ain’t clearly me...

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

https://www.tsn.ca/report-vesalainen-could-be-heading-back-to-europe-1.1210288?tsn-amp

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Stop embarrassing yourself already.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[almostawake]

I'd rather he develop in the AHL and be available to the Jets, but I cannot really fault him for this. And given his ELC will slide, going to the KHL bothers me even less.

 

[libertarian]

So far Vesa has not announced he is leaving for Finland. Now that announcement may come in the next couple of days but it is not a sure thing yet.

 

[HannuJ]

Pulkkinen just isn't that good.

Puljujärvi is an interesting case, I'm not sure that blaming his development on playing in the AHL makes sense though, I'd be more inclined to blame the lack of plan for him where he was going back and forth between the AHL and NHL and playing 4th linemates to playing top 6 minutes.

Granlund turned out pretty good after playing in the AHL, Armia as well. You referred to it as 'a place to avoid at all costs' when there is nothing wrong with playing there. I also have no issue with him playing for Jokerit if that's what he feels like is best for himself right now, he negotiated in the out clause and he has the right to use it. Hopefully he develops and plays great over there.

it's funny.
Morrissey is what he is due to almost two patient years in the AHL.
IF stanley becomes something, it will be due to seasoning in the A. same with Appleton. Definitely the same with Niku.

the AHL isn't the goon league it was in the 80s. it's an excellent developmental league for the NHL.

 

[Maukkis]

It is one thing to do this for financial security, and I'm not sure he can be blamed for that.

However, if his aim is to ever become a NHLer, I see no upside in returning to Europe. When somebody picks up an injury, it is no longer you who gets called up to fill the gap. You won't get accustomed to NA ice and rhythm.

Don't quite get it from the standpoint of becoming a NHLer, but obviously there is more money up for grabs in the KHL.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Has this been confirmed by someone not living in the arctic circle?

 

[FinJetster]

There is another interesting angle to this story. Kristian became a hockey player in HIFK Helsinki where he played all his junior years. HIFK is a Finnish Liiga team with long and successful history. When Vesalainen was 16 he, in his own opinion, was already ready to make the jump to the HIFK Liiga team. But instead he was told (according to himself) by HIFK that he was pretty mediocre player and that it would take about 6 years for him to become a Liiga-player.

Now, Jokerit (also from Helsinki) is a KHL team but they used to be a Liiga team also for most of its history. And all those almost 50 years they played at the same league, these two team were the "arch enemies", as the case tends to be with the teams from the same city. The rivalry also is still there what comes to their junior teams.

So here he also has a great opportunity to show the middle finger to the team that seemed to think so little of him even after all those years. And also not 6 but just 3 years later. Not to mention the possibility to play on his hometown and possibly on the World Championships also (which is bigger than the Stanley Cup or winning the Liiga in Finland). Jokerit has also lost some of their key wingers lately, so he'll probably gonna get some good minutes on top lines.

I also think Vesalainen has already shown he can make it in NA. He has been great lately on the AHL, so I don't think the smaller rink will be a problem for him. Will be a loss for the Moose, though.

 

[Bob E]

He needs a year to gain confidence and continue to grow his offensive game, before making the NHL full time, imo. He’s starting to do that in AHL, and would in all likelihood be a ppg+ player there if he stayed the year with Moose. Potentially 20+ goals and 30+ assists, and that’s great production for a young player.

Now, if he stayed in NA, and the Jets had an injury or two, he may luck into a bigger role (top 6) with the Jets this year, but most likely he would be used as a 4th liner getting 5-7 mins a night. Not much chance to continue to grow an offensive game with that use.

For me, heading back to Finland and KHL would be fine. The kid is 19. Let him play at home and gain more confidence in his offensive game. His board play and defensive awareness is fine. I’d like to see him put up solid offensive numbers in a league better than Liiga.

So let him gain confidence, play at WJC and hopefully the World Championship. Then next year, he can really challenge for a top 9 spot in NHL, a year older and more confident offensive player. And to begin next year, if you want to let him have success out of the gate, pair him with Scheifele and Wheeler.

KV-Scheif-Wheels
Connor-Roslovic-Laine
Perreault-Little-Ehlers
Copp-Lowry-Tanev

Though I think KV replaces Perreault (cap savings) next year and the Jets find another forward (ideally a C) in the next 10 months. Maybe through a Trouba trade or FA signing?

 

[Weezeric]

Plot twist!

 

[Whileee]

Plot twist!

Well, that's a surprise. Does Lemieux go back down? When does KV get back into the lineup?

 

[Weezeric]

Well, that's a surprise. Does Lemieux go back down? When does KV get back into the lineup?

Question: I think orlesky said that he could go to the KHL before nov 17th, and only if he wasn’t on the NHL roster. Any chance the jets just press box him until the 18th and then send him down again?