Player Discussion: Kristian Vesalainen [Update: Signed ELC]

[Whileee]

Yeah, if we buy into the myth that once a player leaves the continent of North America, their development will grind to a halt.

I agree that it's hard to assess development opportunities, though there is a risk that he gets less ice-time and opportunity with Jokerit than he would with the Moose.

Financially, the best thing for him would be for his ELC to kick in this season, which would mean another 5 games with the Jets. I think there's a reasonable chance that injuries would have opened up 5 more games for him, in which case he would have come off his ELC a year sooner. That would likely be worth a fair bit financially.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Yeah, if we buy into the myth that once a player leaves the continent of North America, their development will grind to a halt.

That's just your interpretation of what I meant.

 

[Adam da bomb]

If Ves gets injured in Europe who pays? I mean, if its a serious injury and he was over playing for the Moose I imagine the Jets org has to take care of him and keep paying him, but, since he exercised this claus, does it then become the KHL team's problem?

 

[Adam da bomb]

I agree that it's hard to assess development opportunities, though there is a risk that he gets less ice-time and opportunity with Jokerit than he would with the Moose.

Financially, the best thing for him would be for his ELC to kick in this season, which would mean another 5 games with the Jets. I think there's a reasonable chance that injuries would have opened up 5 more games for him, in which case he would have come off his ELC a year sooner. That would likely be worth a fair bit financially.

Letting him off his ELC early only costs the team more. Better to keep players cheap for longer. So the Jets would have probably called up Appleton and Seuss first.

 

[Ukkosenjumala]

This move to me is pretty consistant for his character, he always has bet on himself. He got heat for leaving Frölunda and that supposedly was some big indication of "character issues", which were promptly forgotten when he showed what he could do in HPK and then at Kärpät. He's betting on himself again by relinquishing the opportunity to get some meaningless call-up that he knows is unlikely and where he would play minor 4th line minutes instead focusing on putting in a years work and being confident that he's gonna be good enough to crack the roster from the get-go next year. Guy has balls.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Meh, at least i have a reason to watch Jokerit again. Will provide highlights. Also I've said a thousand times that you're not gonna get your usual humble Finn in Vesalainen. He has always carved his own path, as Ukkosenjumala said.

doesn't the KHL have Putin's team that is stacked and gets like 12 PP's a game?

Yes and they also start every game up one goal.

 

[Jussi]

Not to mention that it's not like Ves was sitting there thinking he's making a decision between being a better NHL player next year or making a few hundred thousand more this year as some people seem to imply. KHL is the better league and while it's not a development league per say, it's a finnish team with Kurri as GM and other finnish hockey people in operations so they're gonna have an interest to develop him more than your average KHL team.

There's not that much left of the KHL regular season so he wouldn't get a full season's pay. About a half a season is what he'd be looking at.

 

[civic204]

Jets signed him to the deal that included the KHL clause, so it's hard to be mad, plus the ELC slides.

We have been healthy though.. If the injuries piled up, I'm sure he'd be back with the Jets.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

If the injuries piled up, I'm sure he'd be back with the Jets.

I thought if he goes to the KHL the Jets can't recall him. At least, not until Jokerit's season is over.

 

[Whileee]

According to a Finnish journalist on 1290 this morning, KV's deal with the Jets allows him to opt out and return to Europe by November 17th, which is probably the reason it's all happening now.

 

[abax44]

Yeah, if we buy into the myth that once a player leaves the continent of North America, their development will grind to a halt.

Laine leaves every summer and his development grinds to a halt.

 

[Vekke]

Laine leaves every summer and his development grinds to a halt.

Yes he havent even scored hundred yet.

 

[abax44]

Yes he havent even scored hundred yet.

If he trained in NA he'd be pushing for 125 already.

 

[mondo3]

Meh, at least i have a reason to watch Jokerit again. Will provide highlights. Also I've said a thousand times that you're not gonna get your usual humble Finn in Vesalainen. He has always carved his own path, as Ukkosenjumala said.


Yes and they also start every game up one goal.

Where would you guess he fits on Jokerit? As he's quite young, do you think he gets minimal play time?

 

[Vekke]

If he trained in NA he'd be pushing for 125 already.

It is pretty natural that people want to go home for holidays. Btw he is 10th on goals scored for franchise, 2nd on hattrick and 6th on PPG.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Where would you guess he fits on Jokerit? As he's quite young, do you think he gets minimal play time?

If i had to guess I'd say they'll probably try him with Brian O'neill on the second line. That's who Tolvanen played with when he was there. He'll get #1 PP minutes too, for sure. I'd be interested to hear how much Jokerit paid for his rights...

 

[Ippenator]

really puzzling as to why Vesalainen went back home. he was starting to perform well in the AHL. he was 1 forward injury (or trade) away from forcing himself back on the Jets.

Told you guys this is going to happen. I was a bit surprised though that he played even some games in the AHL. But probably a good experience for him to see what he should avoid at all costs in the future. Motivates him to become clearly better.

People really don’t seem to understand what is the point here. Money is still just a side issue. Krisu is ambitious and he loves to play for the national team and being a hero for the Finns. He gets now possibly a double chance to try for international gold medals. First with the U20 which should be a quite strong team really, and possibly also in the spring with the men’s team in the WHC. People seriously don’t seem to understand that young Finnish players do usually value the Finnish national team extremely highly, especially now when Finland has again a great coach (Jukka Jalonen, WHC and WJC gold medalist), whom really knows how to handle young talented players and whom gives them responsibility and fair chances for proving themselves. This is the main reason behind Krisu’s decision. And also the fact that AHL is not at all appealing in general for European youngsters.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Told you guys this is going to happen. I was a bit surprised though that he played even some games in the AHL. But probably a good experience for him to see what he should avoid at all costs in the future. Motivates him to become clearly better.

People really don’t seem to understand what is the point here. Money is still just a side issue. Krisu is ambitious and he loves to play for the national team and being a hero for the Finns. He gets now possibly a double chance to try for international gold medals. First with the U20 which should be a quite strong team really, and possibly also in the spring with the men’s team in the WHC. People seriously dont seem to understand that young Finnish players do usually value the Finnish national team extremely highly, especially now when Finland has again a great coach (Jukka Jalonen, WHC and WJC gold medalist), whom really knows how to handle young talented players and whom gives them responsibility and fair chances for proving themselves. This is the main reason behind Krisu’s decision. And also the fact that AHL is not at all appealing in general for European youngsters.

Ya thank God Rantanen never played in the AHL.

Oh wait.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Ya thank God Rantanen never played in the AHL.

Oh wait.

I don't think it matters too much where he plays, but his decision is a bit strange. I do not buy Ippenator's explanation that "Finnish kids hold the national team in such high regard". What they hold in even more regard is NHL. They do what they're told is the best way for them. Vesalainen does what he thinks is the best for him. And he does not seem to hold AHL in high regard, for whatever reason.

OH and also Mr. Ippenator didn't even think Rantanen would become a very good NHL player. 3rd liner or something like that.

 

[Ippenator]

Ya thank God Rantanen never played in the AHL.

Oh wait.

Worked for him for sure, but there are more of very bad examples of how it is for the Finns in general. How about Puljujärvi? Or Pulkkinen? Well, ok, Pulkkinen at least was just not good enough for the NHL type of play. Still my point was not that it can’t work for some, but really about the fact that it still is not at all an appealing league for young talented Europeans, especially if they have good chances of competing for international medals for the national teams of their countries.

 

[Ippenator]

I don't think it matters too much where he plays, but his decision is a bit strange. I do not buy Ippenator's explanation that "Finnish kids hold the national team in such high regard". What they hold in even more regard is NHL. They do what they're told is the best way for them. Vesalainen does what he thinks is the best for him. And he does not seem to hold AHL in high regard, for whatever reason.

OH and also Mr. Ippenator didn't even think Rantanen would become a very good NHL player. 3rd liner or something like that.

Yes, I have many times myself admitted at HFboards that I was dead wrong with the level that Rantanen could become. The reason why I doubted him though was his lack of intensity and real special qualities except his strength and physical conditioning. I did for sure underestimate the pure skill that the dude has. Also he developed his skating and his shot a lot after that time. It was already more than two years ago when I was doubting him.

But ok, mistakes happen for sure for everyone. On the other hand I have been right about the level of Laine, Aho and Puljujärvi (I was doubting if Pulju becomes a real star in the NHL, and it really seems like he is far from it at least so far) in the NHL, and also I have been correct about Jokiharju being clearly NHL ready and much better than people have in general thought of him. Tolvanen has been for sure a bit of a disappointment for me and maybe I have been a bit wrong with him, but I did say about him, that I see him quite bad with his physical conditioning, so I did have at least some doubts in him being right away good in the NHL. But the disappointment has been that he hasn’t been able to light the lamp much in the AHL either. That kid seems to be at least two years away from the NHL at this rate. And I did expect him to get at least somekind of a role in the NHL already at some point of his first season.

But with Vesalainen my estimations have been pretty spot on. Anyway, I have my own opinions on the motives for him. He has been always passionate about the Finnish national team in the interviews, so I’m pretty sure that I’m right about it. You can always disagree, but I seriously think you are wrong then. Anyway as usual, we disagree on something here. I also disagree on your decision of having an account with Paul Maurice’s name and picture. To me it’s an offending approach towards this site and the posters here, and even towards Maurice himself, and honestly I think something like that shouldn’t be allowed on this kind of a site. But that’s of course another story...

 

[abax44]

It is pretty natural that people want to go home for holidays. Btw he is 10th on goals scored for franchise, 2nd on hattrick and 6th on PPG.

Imagine if he trained with a good trainer. He'd be 5th in goals scored, 1st in hat tricks and PP and last in lazy turnovers.

 

[Ippenator]

Imagine if he trained with a good trainer. He'd be 5th in goals scored, 1st in hat tricks and PP and last in lazy turnovers.

I guess you know that Laine trains with the same trainer that Rantanen trains with? I wonder how good Rantanen would be then if you think that he would also be a lot better if he would train with some North American trainers? Probably hitting 60 points right about now, eh? Maybe getting a 240 points season when it’s all said and done?

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Worked for him for sure, but there are more of very bad examples of how it is for the Finns in general. How about Puljujärvi? Or Pulkkinen? Well, ok, Pulkkinen at least was just not good enough for the NHL type of play. Still my point was not that it can’t work for some, but really about the fact that it still is not at all an appealing league for young talented Europeans, especially if they have good chances of competing for international medals for the national teams of their countries.

Pulkkinen just isn't that good.

Puljujärvi is an interesting case, I'm not sure that blaming his development on playing in the AHL makes sense though, I'd be more inclined to blame the lack of plan for him where he was going back and forth between the AHL and NHL and playing 4th linemates to playing top 6 minutes.

Granlund turned out pretty good after playing in the AHL, Armia as well. You referred to it as 'a place to avoid at all costs' when there is nothing wrong with playing there. I also have no issue with him playing for Jokerit if that's what he feels like is best for himself right now, he negotiated in the out clause and he has the right to use it. Hopefully he develops and plays great over there.

 

[Ippenator]

Pulkkinen just isn't that good.

Puljujärvi is an interesting case, I'm not sure that blaming his development on playing in the AHL makes sense though, I'd be more inclined to blame the lack of plan for him where he was going back and forth between the AHL and NHL and playing 4th linemates to playing top 6 minutes.

Granlund turned out pretty good after playing in the AHL, Armia as well. You referred to it as 'a place to avoid at all costs' when there is nothing wrong with playing there. I also have no issue with him playing for Jokerit if that's what he feels like is best for himself right now, he negotiated in the out clause and he has the right to use it. Hopefully he develops and plays great over there.

We clearly agree about Pulkkinen at least. But with Puljujärvi we definitely disagree then. The dude has honestly seriously REGRESSED as a player during the time that he has been in North America. Part of it has probably to do with his self confidence being fragile and getting too easily crushed, but also it seems that the training and the advising has been pretty much rubbish so far by the Oilers and their farm team in Bakersfield.

I also sincerely believe that Granlund and Armia would have become even better if they had just played longer in Europe and just taken care of their physical development a bit longer per season. Shorter season, so more time to train their physics in the off season. In Granlund’s case though it’s hard to say for sure. He for sure has turned out very good anyway. So I can’t at least claim that the AHL was really harmful for him.

Armia is a grey colored 3rd or 4th liner that I was in fact originally projecting Rantanen pretty much to become. So in Armia’s case I don't see much of positive things with how the AHL ”developed” him. But this is probably more of a matter of taste. I’m just not really at all enthusiastic about his type of players. Well, sure he might be kind of useful for team Finland as a PK Specialist and a pretty good 4th liner, but by all means he is nothing like priceless in those roles even for team Finland. Just not at all the player that he should have had potential of becoming.