Player Discussion: Kristian Vesalainen [Update: Signed ELC]

[Ippenator]

Which is why I believe that there is a sizeable Games Played bonus for 18-19 on his ELC to hike up his 1st year salary, with the added benefit to K-Ves that the 10+ NHL Games needed to unlock such bonus would also burn the first year of his ELC.

"You stay, you play, but if you ditch for Russia, boy, we won't call up the rest of the season."

If he was planning to have his ELC Slide for 18-19 while he is in Jokerit and then make it to the NHL from 19-20 forwards, he in all likeliness would have wanted (and gotten) the Schedule A Performance Bonus for the 1st season (19-20) too. But he got enough negotiating power to have a different arrangement for 18-19 that sees him play mainly in AHL with KHL-comparable total income unless of course he breaks through to NHL big time. The Performance Bonus is missing from the 1st season because all parties understand that he won't unlock it playing in AHL in 18-19 and so it would be needless dead cap hit weight.

It's obviously possible that he didn't get a Games Played bonus and that he is content with merely the 1st ELC year getting burned in 18-19, though the added money would be easy to slip in there as a GP bonus. There's obviously the slight risk that someone would want to see the bonus money as a CBA circumvention to pay someone more AHL salary than allowed; I wouldn't think the GMs want this to become the new normal euroboy contract. At the same time, NHL don't want their prospects opting for KHL because of money either, so maybe no one would make a problem of it. The whole idea of Games Played bonus kind of is to hike up the AHL salary for a promising prospect.

But any case, 10+ in N, stays full season in NA, mark my words.

That might of course be. But I honestly don’t see him playing at least much in the AHL if he gets 10+ games in the NHL. And on the other hand if the Jets are really thinking of using him in more games than 9 games in the NHL, then it must really mean that he has impressed them a lot and they see him simply already better than a lot of Jets wingers. Most definitely they would in that case see him already as clear 3rd line capable player right from the start.

 

[Mud Turtle]

I'd rather see Ves spend another year in Europe than muddle through a season with the Jets in a depth role.

He has plenty of room for growth.

I've said it before, but a good chunk of his production was effectively a mirage. AHL or Europe are fine by me.

AHL has major benefits. No reason to rush him into the NHL.

Very interesting. Maybe a bit of reason to temper expectations just a little bit.

 

[Daximus]

That might of course be. But I honestly don’t see him playing at least much in the AHL if he gets 10+ games in the NHL. And on the other hand if the Jets are really thinking of using him in more games than 9 games in the NHL, then it must really mean that he has impressed them a lot and they see him simply already better than a lot of Jets wingers. Most definitely they would in that case see him already as clear 3rd line capable player right from the start.

I'd imagine he will be 1st line, 1st PP on the Moose next year if he doesn't make the Jets. Not sure where Jokerit has him slotted in but he will get prime time on the Moose next year.

 

[Lempo]

To anyone wondering what the hell I'm about, he CBA says it on the Games Played bonuses for Entry-level players that:

9.7 Games Played Bonuses for Group 1 Players. Games played bonuses may be provided to a Group 1 Player only for: (i) five (5) games played, (ii) ten (10) games played, and (iii) more than ten (10) games played. Such bonuses shall be subject to the maximum limit on the amount payable and subject to the other conditions for such bonuses, as set forth below.

(a) Subject to the Entry Level compensation limits set forth in Section 9.3 above, for Skaters: (i) bonuses awarded for five (5) games played shall be limited to a maximum of $25,000 in the aggregate; and (ii) bonuses awarded for ten (10) or more games played are not limited as to the maximum amount of the bonus; and

(b) Subject to the Entry Level compensation limits set forth in Section 9.3 above, for Goalies: (i) bonuses awarded for five (5) games played shall be limited to a maximum of $50,000 in the aggregate, with a minimum time-on-ice requirement of at least 30 minutes per game; and (ii) bonuses awarded for ten (10) or more games played are not limited as to the amount of the bonus, and shall not require a minimum amount of time-on-ice in any game; and

(c) Final National Hockey League official statistics shall be utilized in determining whether a Player earned a game played.

It's a balancing act if you get one, because the GP bonus counts against the allowed maximum salary of $925k and so your Base Salary will be that much lower. If you play only 9 games in NHL and miss out the bigger GP bonus, you'll also lose some money due to getting paid for your time on NHL roster on a reduced NHL Base Salary (assuming you'd have had the max otherwise but opted for the GP bonus instead when negotiating the ELC).

The GP is counted as salary for the Signing Bonus purposes so you still can get the allowed max $92.5k Signing Bonus even while having a GP Bonus and reduced Base Salary.

 

[Ippenator]

To anyone wondering what the hell I'm about, he CBA says it on the Games Played bonuses for Entry-level players that:



It's a balancing act if you get one, because the GP bonus counts against the allowed maximum salary of $925k and so your Base Salary will be that much lower. If you play only 9 games in NHL and miss out the bigger GP bonus, you'll also lose some money due to getting paid for your time on NHL roster on a reduced NHL Base Salary (assuming you'd have had the max otherwise but opted for the GP bonus instead when negotiating the ELC).

The GP is counted as salary for the Signing Bonus purposes so you still can get the allowed max $92.5k Signing Bonus even while having a GP Bonus and reduced Base Salary.

This is exactly in my opinion proof of Vesalainen being interested in playing in the KHL, if he will not get NHL games after the 9 games. In that case he would get good
money from the KHL. You also Lempo seem to not take into account at all the interest for Vesalainen to play in WJC and WHC. If he stays in the AHL it’s very likely that he doesn’t get to play in either. Maybe in the WJC, but he wouldn’t be able to count on that very much either.

Put into the scale more money from KHL and the good possibility to play in both international level tournaments, and I honestly don’t see a very big chance for him to play for the rest of the season in the AHL, if he doesn’t get more than 9 games in the NHL.

 

[Adam da bomb]

This is exactly in my opinion proof of Vesalainen being interested in playing in the KHL, if he will not get NHL games after the 9 games. In that case he would get good
money from the KHL. You also Lempo seem to not take into account at all the interest for Vesalainen to play in WJC and WHC. If he stays in the AHL it’s very likely that he doesn’t get to play in either. Maybe in the WJC, but he wouldn’t be able to count on that very much either.

Put into the scale more money from KHL and the good possibility to play in both international level tournaments, and I honestly don’t see a very big chance for him to play for the rest of the season in the AHL, if he doesn’t get more than 9 games in the NHL.

Is Ves even in that negotiating position? He either stays in Europe or he comes over plays some NHL games and then plays in the A. Does he really have all these different negotiating positions without pissing off the Jets org? Like I'll play 9 games than go play in KHL. I mean he doesn't want to be seen as difficult as the Jets have his NHL rights for a long time.

 

[Ippenator]

Is Ves even in that negotiating position? He either stays in Europe or he comes over plays some NHL games and then plays in the A. Does he really have all these different negotiating positions without pissing off the Jets org? Like I'll play 9 games than go play in KHL. I mean he doesn't want to be seen as difficult as the Jets have his NHL rights for a long time.

He definitely is in that position, if he will not fit to the Jets lineup after the 9 games. He has the Euro clause in his contract for a reason, and that is to give him the option to choose the path that he himself believes to be the best for his development if he doesn’t clearly fit to the NHL playing roster after the 9 NHL games.

Some of you seem to seriously believe that Vesalainen playing in Europe for one more season would be somehow a horrible thing for the Jets management. But if that would be the case, then they wouldn’t give him the Euro clause to his contract in the first place. It clearly implicates that they are fine with him maybe making the decision to play still in Europe for one more season.

European leagues are in fact very good leagues for player development and especially the top leagues like KHL, SHL, Liiga and NLA are in general better leagues for young European players to develop. The play is generally more based on pure skill and there are more tactical sides to the play. Not even close to as much of the dump and chase hockey that the AHL is so full of even nowadays.

 

[Lempo]

This is exactly in my opinion proof of Vesalainen being interested in playing in the KHL, if he will not get NHL games after the 9 games. In that case he would get good
money from the KHL. You also Lempo seem to not take into account at all the interest for Vesalainen to play in WJC and WHC. If he stays in the AHL it’s very likely that he doesn’t get to play in either. Maybe in the WJC, but he wouldn’t be able to count on that very much either.

Put into the scale more money from KHL and the good possibility to play in both international level tournaments, and I honestly don’t see a very big chance for him to play for the rest of the season in the AHL, if he doesn’t get more than 9 games in the NHL.

I don't believe WJC or WHC 2019 is his his #1 goal at this point, but a NHL career. As seen with Laine et al, WJC is a showcase tournament for those hoping to make a statement for NHL career, and little of worth for those with a skate already half in an NHL rink.

A season spent mostly in AHL with (a strong possibility for) burning a year off the ELC may be the best bet to get soon to the millions-scale NHL RFA money. Forfeiting a couple of KHL k's in 2018-19 season for that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Lempo]

Is Ves even in that negotiating position? He either stays in Europe or he comes over plays some NHL games and then plays in the A. Does he really have all these different negotiating positions without pissing off the Jets org? Like I'll play 9 games than go play in KHL. I mean he doesn't want to be seen as difficult as the Jets have his NHL rights for a long time.

It's a business, he got an agent doing the business business. They GMs sure understand that side of things if fans always don't. Besides, despite what some people think of the Entry Draft, it's not a slave drive and he's not the Jets' ***** until he contractually signs himself up to be. Which is what they are trying to do in the ELC negotiations. If Jets succeed, he's theirs for seven years at a bargain price.

Jokerit would gladly have signed him for a couple of hundred k's, pure AHL had but $70k to offer. It's a negotiation position.

 

[Ippenator]

I don't believe WJC or WHC 2019 is his his #1 goal at this point, but a NHL career. As seen with Laine et al, WJC is a showcase tournament for those hoping to make a statement for NHL career, and little of worth for those with a skate already half in an NHL rink.

A season spent mostly in AHL with (a strong possibility for) burning a year off the ELC may be the best bet to get soon to the millions-scale NHL RFA money. Forfeiting a couple of KHL k's in 2018-19 season for that shouldn't be an issue.

But playing a full season season in the AHL will in fact make his good NHL career a statistically less likely thing to happen. Euro players that get a clear top 6 role don’t come that often through the path of playing a full season in the AHL. And with Finnish players that is in fact incredibly rare.

Much more likely option to get a good top 6 based NHL career is getting a very strong international season after a very good European professional season. If a player of his age will really break through at the WHC it would be in fact much more useful knowledge about his true potential to play against the best players (that the WHC tournaments are stacked with) than having a very good season in the grinding league that the AHL definitely is.

 

[Lempo]

But playing a full season season in the AHL will in fact make his good NHL career a statistically less likely thing to happen. Euro players that get a clear top 6 role don’t come that often through the path of playing a full season in the AHL. And with Finnish players that is in fact incredibly rare.

Much more likely option to get a good top 6 based NHL career is getting a very strong international season after a very good European professional season. If a player of his age will really break through at the WHC it would be in fact much more useful knowledge about his true potential than having a very good season in the grinding league that the AHL definitely is.

That certainly is a thing to contemplate, especially in relation to the strong possibility that he leaves the Entry-level System in 2021 instead of 2022 if he goes to AHL with some NHL.

Also, you can't expect to walk into Jets top 6 no way no how, the way they're stacked.

 

[Trilliann]

Is Ves even in that negotiating position? He either stays in Europe or he comes over plays some NHL games and then plays in the A. Does he really have all these different negotiating positions without pissing off the Jets org? Like I'll play 9 games than go play in KHL. I mean he doesn't want to be seen as difficult as the Jets have his NHL rights for a long time.

The Jets chose to give him the Euro clause. If they have a problem with him using it, they're the ones being difficult.

 

[KingBogo]

They way I see the Vesalainen situation is the Jets have found themselves in fairly unique circumstances. At the expansion draft they traded down and got him at #24 and as it turned out he would have been a great pick at #13 and very likely he is a top 10 talent for that year's draft. The Jets then seen him develop extremely well in his D+1 season playing in Liiga. While he wants to play in the NHL he didn't grow up with the NA belief system of paying your dues in the minors mentality so he has no interest in playing for the Moose.

Now Vesalainen has much stronger bargaining power with the threat of losing him permanently to the KHL hovering in the background. So the Jets had to negotiate with him as a top tier prospect and a Euro clause to help keep performance bonuses down was likely something they were comfortable with. They saw him already develop well in D+1, and no doubt would have had discussions with Jokerit about his usage etc before agreeing to the Euro clause.

IMO Vesalainen will be given every opportunity to make the Jets and maybe even get the 9 games but then I see the options as him remaining a Jet or back to Europe, with a possible return to the Jets after the KHL season once roster limits increase post TD. I don't think we ever see him play for the Moose. And I think the Jets are okay with this and as many Finnish posters have pointed out, most top European players have developed in European leagues not the AHL.

What he loses in learning Jets system play can easily enough picked up when the time comes, but how he develops as a high scoring winger is what is most important in my opinion any way. And I land on the side of letting him run in Europe, over the tighter reigns he would be under with the Moose.

 

[surixon]

It personally doesn't matter to me where he develops just so long as he keeps developing.

I do think this notion that the AHL stunts Europeans is a bit overblown though. Playing in the AHL seemed to help guys like Nylander and Rantanen just fine. It's like anything you need to go to a team that prioritizes development over winning. It's why the Jets have had good success with their system as Vincient puts the prospects in positions to succeed and let's them make mistakes whereas an org like the Oilers plays vets ahead of the kids on the farm.

 

[Weezeric]

I don’t think it makes a huge difference if he plays in the AHL or in Europe this season. Both will be fine for his development. I’m sure the jets would prefer him in Winnipeg but I doubt they have a huge issue with the other option.

I’m most excited to see what he can do on the smaller NA ice. I think his game will be even better here

 

[KingBogo]

Agreed if he doesn't make the Jets it doesn't matter where he plays as much as he is comfortable where he plays. I just think to expect European players to have the same belief system as North Americans is at best unrealistic. We all grow up dreaming of playing in the NHL, and understand very well that the AHL is a natural stepping stone on the way for most players and accept it fully. European players also grow up wanting to play in the NHL as it is the best league in the world that pays the most money. But the AHL is just a lesser NA league that pays very poorly for young players. Why is that better than playing at home in the top league in Europe against better players at 10 X's the salary? We can argue it is better for his development but what are we than saying about European hockey? That they don't care about their players and that they play an inferior brand of hockey?

 

[Huffer]

It personally doesn't matter to me where he develops just so long as he keeps developing.

I do think this notion that the AHL stunts Europeans is a bit overblown though. Playing in the AHL seemed to help guys like Nylander and Rantanen just fine. It's like anything you need to go to a team that prioritizes development over winning. It's why the Jets have had good success with their system as Vincient puts the prospects in positions to succeed and let's them make mistakes whereas an org like the Oilers plays vets ahead of the kids on the farm.

I don’t think it makes a huge difference if he plays in the AHL or in Europe this season. Both will be fine for his development. I’m sure the jets would prefer him in Winnipeg but I doubt they have a huge issue with the other option.

I’m most excited to see what he can do on the smaller NA ice. I think his game will be even better here

Agreed if he doesn't make the Jets it doesn't matter where he plays as much as he is comfortable where he plays. I just think to expect European players to have the same belief system as North Americans is at best unrealistic. We all grow up dreaming of playing in the NHL, and understand very well that the AHL is a natural stepping stone on the way for most players and accept it fully. European players also grow up wanting to play in the NHL as it is the best league in the world that pays the most money. But the AHL is just a lesser NA league that pays very poorly for young players. Why is that better than playing at home in the top league in Europe against better players at 10 X's the salary? We can argue it is better for his development but what are we than saying about European hockey? That they don't care about their players and that they play an inferior brand of hockey?

My thoughts as well. Not too worried about where he ends up next year. It would be cool on the Moose as that's in our backyard and we know he would get a lot of ice time, but if it's in Europe, that's fine too as long as he's getting opportunities and getting coached properly. Wherever he plays, I hope he plays in the World Juniors. That is great experience IMO.

 

[Adam da bomb]

The Jets chose to give him the Euro clause. If they have a problem with him using it, they're the ones being difficult.

I have never seen the actual contract. Just figure the jets org want the best Moose team possible as that's how the org makes money. Can you imagine how good the Moose would be if all players choose to stay in Europe. I guess it's the same way with college. Either way the the moose would be awful and the team would lose a lot of money. As you say it's a business. And the jets make money win the Moose make money.

 

[ffh]

I'll beleive he has a European clause when the jets say he does not John Shannon. Every european player 19 or 20 who did not play junior signed to a elc all play in the nhl or ahl not the khl. Not 1. There is a reason for that. Tolvanen will play in ahl if he can't make Nashville. Vesalainen will be in Winnipeg 1 way or the other.

 

[truck]

I'm curious why you say his production was a mirage. I don't know enough about him to argue, I'd love to hear more about your take on him.

His shooting percentage was unsustainably high - about double what would be normal and near double what what Laine did in the same league.

If you cut his goals in half, his numbers are still good, just not as high up the all time ranks.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Thank God this Euro clause is drawing attention away from his off-season training.

 

[HannuJ]

that was posted on here...2 months ago.

 

[truck]

Very interesting. Maybe a bit of reason to temper expectations just a little bit.

I think he's a great prospect and I'd rather he score the goals than not, but there is no denying that his shooting percent was unsustainable.

 

[Trilliann]

I have never seen the actual contract. Just figure the jets org want the best Moose team possible as that's how the org makes money. Can you imagine how good the Moose would be if all players choose to stay in Europe. I guess it's the same way with college. Either way the the moose would be awful and the team would lose a lot of money. As you say it's a business. And the jets make money win the Moose make money.

I'll beleive he has a European clause when the jets say he does not John Shannon. Every european player 19 or 20 who did not play junior signed to a elc all play in the nhl or ahl not the khl. Not 1. There is a reason for that. Tolvanen will play in ahl if he can't make Nashville. Vesalainen will be in Winnipeg 1 way or the other.

Ohh, so you don't believe there is a European Assignment Clause?
Well, anyways, I hope he stays in WPG this year, even if it means a full season in the AHL.
But I can understand if he chooses otherwise.

 

[scarbrow21]

In terms of KV's development I really think he just needs to come to the NHL and play in a sheltered role. He's going to get 9 games and could prove me wrong, but I think he sticks for the season depending on how POMO constructs his lines. The line ups I've toyed with are:
A) B) C) D)
Connor-Scheif-Wheeler Connor-Scheif-Wheeler Vesalainen-Scheif-Wheeler Ehlers-Scheif-Laine
Ehlers-Little-Laine Ehlers-Roslovic-Laine Ehlers-Little-Laine Connor-Roslovic-Wheeler
Perrault-Roslovic-Vesalainen or Perrault-Little-Vesalainen or Connor-Roslovic-Perrault or Perrault-Little-Vesalainen

I don't see Petan or Dano beating out Vesalainen for a roster spot TBH. It does matter who takes the #2C role whether it be Little, or maybe even Roslovic. For me:

A) Vesa plays against lesser opponents in opposing teams lineup while having a young C, Roslovic is very good defensively and plays a hard fast game. This would give Roslovic time at C while getting Vesalainen aclimated both against the opponents weaker lines because opposition will have to deal with Connor-Scheif-Wheeler, then Ehlers-Little-Laine and that's no fun!

B) Vesa stays in the same position against opponents weaker lines while also having two stable vets on his wing and gets that boost much like Roslovic and Ehlers did while playing with the Perrault-Little duo. Vesa also has the benefit of being the shooter on this line.

C) May seem like the wrong spot for him, but he gets the Kyle Connor treatment in that he plays with the teams two best players yes against the oppositions best, but Vesa has played in a mens leauge, plays a similar style to Wheeler and could really benefit from Scheif and Wheels skilled playmaking like Connor did. He could easily pot 20-30 G in this role and it also reunites Connor-Roslovic as another young duo freeing them up to play against weaker opponents

D) Putting ESL together is just scary to other teams. Wheeler can drive the bus with Ros and Connor who do have chemistry together and could become dynamic. Vesa gets the same benefits of Perrault-Little as in B).