Value of: Kreider or Buchnevich to SJ

Shootertooter

Registered User
Feb 20, 2016
3,676
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That you did not want him was not only point being made.
Kreider is not a 2nd line value, so he commands 1st line return, wherever he goes, if he goes.

I am anticipating they eventually settle on a 1st line of
Kakko-Kravtsov-Panarin

pushes Kreider and Zib w/correct pivot [Nieves] to 2nd line

Kreider still commands first line value returned if moved.

Just stop dude.
The 1C is not being supplanted by a rookie winger who has 6 games experience at C in an international tournament.
Last years 4C, Nieves, might not even make the team this year and will not be playing 2C because you think he is a good passer....yet you continue to ignore the fact that he has essentially zero offensive ability. Non of your dream moves are the right ones.

All the Rangers need to do is bury or buyout a couple of players and the cap thing becomes a non issue.....I agree with you that Kreider's value will not be hurt by current cap constraints.
 

Kupo

MAFIA, MOUNT UP!
Sponsor
Oct 31, 2017
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Yikes you missed the point. Players on their last year of their contract continue lose trade value once the trade deadline passes like an option.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound right now?

That's like telling me water is wet. Everyone knows UFA's have practically no value at all once the deadline passes. It's July 2019. Not July 2020. Kreider still has value. He will continue to have value until the deadline.

I don't even understand what point you're trying to make right now.
 

FoxysExpensiveNYDigs

Boo Nieves Truther
Feb 27, 2002
6,388
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Colorado
Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound right now?

That's like telling me water is wet. Everyone knows UFA's have practically no value at all once the deadline passes. It's July 2019. Not July 2020. Kreider still has value. He will continue to have value until the deadline.

I don't even understand what point you're trying to make right now.
Me either but I know it's not a good point. Of course every player has zero value once they get past the deadline and cant be traded before they hit UFA. Such a weird take, like this is some unique scenario.
 

PattyLafontaine

Registered User
Apr 5, 2006
2,631
931
Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound right now?

That's like telling me water is wet. Everyone knows UFA's have practically no value at all once the deadline passes. It's July 2019. Not July 2020. Kreider still has value. He will continue to have value until the deadline.

I don't even understand what point you're trying to make right now.

Not my problem if you’ve don’t understand derivatives.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
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Da Big Apple
Just stop dude.
The 1C is not being supplanted by a rookie winger who has 6 games experience at C in an international tournament.
Last years 4C, Nieves, might not even make the team this year and will not be playing 2C because you think he is a good passer....yet you continue to ignore the fact that he has essentially zero offensive ability. Non of your dream moves are the right ones.

All the Rangers need to do is bury or buyout a couple of players and the cap thing becomes a non issue.....I agree with you that Kreider's value will not be hurt by current cap constraints.

I will not stop.
You wish to disagree, that is your right.
No censorship.

There is a rationale that Kappo-Kravtsov-Panarin might be one best line, in that scenario, Krav with his vision should get full first shot at pivot.

We've been thru the other line also.
Kreider - Zib are a good pair, and since Zib is righty shot, he can easily handle RW without going to his off side.
You could consider another way based on scoring exclusively and imagine Chytil, but if you go by other factors, Nieves is the most complementary and best ideal fit.

No more bs b'c guys have to be showcased.
Cut the wheat from the chaff now, and sell the surplus high, and give max mins to our core.
Nieves should be the 2C betw Kreider - Zib in that construct.
 

Patty Ice

Straight to the Banc
Feb 27, 2002
13,881
3,404
Not California
to each their own
but he will get more than Hayes
book it

Not sure he gets more but something comparable. Hayes was a deadline deal so that return was a bit inflated but I agree that Kreider should pull a 1st and a good prospect. I am curious, however in a previous post you think that Kreider would sign for $6.2M but yet you value him higher (as do I) than Hayes who signed for $7.1M. What's your reasoning there?
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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Fremont, CA
So? Are you attempting to now convince me he’s somehow better than all the Sharks forwards, or was this just a fun nugget of info to share?

Not sure why you’re so adamant about this guy, you really do love him though.

However I won’t be persuaded, until I see actual results, because if he is truely as amazing as you make him out to be, than I’m honestly horrified at how bad his hands and vision must be to struggle to score points like he does, and of the pedestrian assists he does accumulate, the majority are secondary. Based on what you’re making him out to be he should be a god, yet he’s not, something isn’t adding up.

I'm not attempting to show you he's better than all the Sharks players. What I am disproving is your idea that he is "the shiniest nickel in a sack of pennies and nickels". You are the one who decided that goal differential was a valid metric, so if you think that, then you can't possibly agree that he is the shiniest nickel.

Out-scoring the other team to the degree that the Rangers have over Kreider's past 3 years are actual results. His primary scoring rates are also actual results and they are low-end first line.

You have misrepresented my arguments and Kreider's results at every turn here.
 

themelkman

Always Delivers
Apr 26, 2015
11,425
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Calgary, Alberta
to each their own
but he will get more than Hayes
book it
He will get similar. That was a deadline deal and New York had space to negotiate, right now they are much more cap strapped and teams know it.

I think the offer of a conditional first plus Gambrell is a pretty similar deal that makes sense value wise. Maybe the sharks add a small asset as well
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
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Da Big Apple
Not sure he gets more but something comparable. Hayes was a deadline deal so that return was a bit inflated but I agree that Kreider should pull a 1st and a good prospect. I am curious, however in a previous post you think that Kreider would sign for $6.2M but yet you value him higher (as do I) than Hayes who signed for $7.1M. What's your reasoning there?

$ is not insignificant; it is an important factor; but it is not everything.

Supposedly Kreider likes it here, wants to stay.
Also there was a point where Zib's nmc would not kick in until July 1, so there was a possibility he would be sold high. Did not happen. So CK knows if he returns, he has likely 3 years working with a complementary F, which is good for his game. I think if enough players we get down to a primary core, and Nieves other than scoring is a great fit for that pair, with speed size power skating passing and fab def.

So yeah, he may want to go in another direction, but he can have a comfortable fit on an emerging club w/huge adds and some talent in the pipeline.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
27,689
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Da Big Apple
He will get similar. That was a deadline deal and New York had space to negotiate, right now they are much more cap strapped and teams know it.

I think the offer of a conditional first plus Gambrell is a pretty similar deal that makes sense value wise. Maybe the sharks add a small asset as well

the bold is clearly true, but unlike Marleau situation where Leafs seemed to have a gun up vs their heads, they have other options.

It's a fair ? to ask if CK, or anyone else, SHOULD go.
But at this point, he does NOT HAVE TO go.
 

Shootertooter

Registered User
Feb 20, 2016
3,676
1,487
I will not stop.
You wish to disagree, that is your right.
No censorship.

There is a rationale that Kappo-Kravtsov-Panarin might be one best line, in that scenario, Krav with his vision should get full first shot at pivot.

We've been thru the other line also.
Kreider - Zib are a good pair, and since Zib is righty shot, he can easily handle RW without going to his off side.
You could consider another way based on scoring exclusively and imagine Chytil, but if you go by other factors, Nieves is the most complementary and best ideal fit.

No more bs b'c guys have to be showcased.
Cut the wheat from the chaff now, and sell the surplus high, and give max mins to our core.
Nieves should be the 2C betw Kreider - Zib in that construct.


Where is that rationale you speak of.............because you continuously harp about something? You act as if your random non factual thoughts hold any weight or value to anyone other than you.

Kravtsov is not a center, he is not coming in off the street to center the Rangers #1 line despite playing well in 6 games as a C at the IIHC.....a spot he was thrust into due to injury to another player. It is not happening. Wondering if he could be a viable choice at C is a way more logical and prudent thought process than automatically penciling him in as you have done here. There is no actual logic or fact to support your "reasoning".

None of what you are saying can be supported by facts such as "this guy is the best at his position(supported by his body of work) so he naturally should slot up". You want Nieves whom lacks any kind of offensive ability to be put in a primarily offensive role because........synergy, despite there actually being 3 or 4 other players who are more offensively talented C's.

I am wondering how so many people can tell you that your ideas are not based on any sort of reality or credibility yet you can't see it and adamantly defend them with words like synergy and vision and expect anyone to agree with you. It is ponderous.

What does "his vision" regarding Krav actually mean? You make these general statements as if you see something in these players that is a known fact. Krav with "his vision". Nieves is a "great" passer and has synergy with Kreider, yet you completely ignore the fact he has hands of stone and zero offensive upside. Oh but he can pass the puck really swell, so make him the #2 C........there is zero logic in your thought process here.

Kravtsov is a talented player, of whom I am more than confident you have not seen play sans for a few youtube video's, if that. You already made it clear you were basing your statements about Krav off what what someone on the Rangers forum said, so doubling down on it without even seeing the guy play is beyond ignorant. If we are going on whims, maybe I should argue that Panarin and Kakko should be our #1 and #2 C's just because they seem to have the most offensive hype. Krav is not usurping Zib who is actually a C and is coming off his best ever season. Nor is Nieves. Chances are pretty damn high that Zib will be the #1 for the rest of his contract at least and by next season Nieves will be signed to another team.

You made the statement that showcasing is over...........I agree.......... let the kids play....in that sense........Chytil should be given a crack at 2C and Howden and Andersson in no particular order should be the #3 and #4, they should get time over Nieves, who if he makes the team out of camp, might be the 13th forward. So which way do you want it? Give the kids a shot or not? Nieves is signed to a 1yr deal and is likely not in the Rangers future plans past this season. He is depth or an injury call up.....not a regular if the other kids are playing.
 

Patty Ice

Straight to the Banc
Feb 27, 2002
13,881
3,404
Not California
they have other options.

I agree with this also which is why I believe that they can ask for a 1st and a good prospect right now, he is their most marketable asset right now that is available. Now as it gets closer to the beginning of the season and there is no market for the other options, the Rangers might have to settle for less. I think something gets done sooner rather than later if they want good value for Kreider.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
27,689
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Da Big Apple
Where is that rationale you speak of.............because you continuously harp about something? You act as if your random non factual thoughts hold any weight or value to anyone other than you.

Kravtsov is not a center, he is not coming in off the street to center the Rangers #1 line despite playing well in 6 games as a C at the IIHC.....a spot he was thrust into due to injury to another player. It is not happening. Wondering if he could be a viable choice at C is a way more logical and prudent thought process than automatically penciling him in as you have done here. There is no actual logic or fact to support your "reasoning".

None of what you are saying can be supported by facts such as "this guy is the best at his position(supported by his body of work) so he naturally should slot up". You want Nieves whom lacks any kind of offensive ability to be put in a primarily offensive role because........synergy, despite there actually being 3 or 4 other players who are more offensively talented C's.

I am wondering how so many people can tell you that your ideas are not based on any sort of reality or credibility yet you can't see it and adamantly defend them with words like synergy and vision and expect anyone to agree with you. It is ponderous.

What does "his vision" regarding Krav actually mean? You make these general statements as if you see something in these players that is a known fact. Krav with "his vision". Nieves is a "great" passer and has synergy with Kreider, yet you completely ignore the fact he has hands of stone and zero offensive upside. Oh but he can pass the puck really swell, so make him the #2 C........there is zero logic in your thought process here.

Kravtsov is a talented player, of whom I am more than confident you have not seen play sans for a few youtube video's, if that. You already made it clear you were basing your statements about Krav off what what someone on the Rangers forum said, so doubling down on it without even seeing the guy play is beyond ignorant. If we are going on whims, maybe I should argue that Panarin and Kakko should be our #1 and #2 C's just because they seem to have the most offensive hype. Krav is not usurping Zib who is actually a C and is coming off his best ever season. Nor is Nieves. Chances are pretty damn high that Zib will be the #1 for the rest of his contract at least and by next season Nieves will be signed to another team.

You made the statement that showcasing is over...........I agree.......... let the kids play....in that sense........Chytil should be given a crack at 2C and Howden and Andersson in no particular order should be the #3 and #4, they should get time over Nieves, who if he makes the team out of camp, might be the 13th forward. So which way do you want it? Give the kids a shot or not? Nieves is signed to a 1yr deal and is likely not in the Rangers future plans past this season. He is depth or an injury call up.....not a regular if the other kids are playing.

we disagree on a few of the details here, such as Nieves having 'hands of stone'.
He is currently better than either Howden or Andersson. All three have to learn how to shoot.
If we are moving excess and sell high on Strome, which we should do, the only real option alternative is Chytil, who is a serious shooter, but not nec the best chemistry fit for Kreider-Zib.

It is reasonable to speculate that the three most talented players with best mesh is Kappo-Krav-Pan, and you refuse to concede that possibility. If you accept that premise, Krav is the immediate choice for pivot.

In short, we agree to disagree on this.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
27,689
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Da Big Apple
I agree with this also which is why I believe that they can ask for a 1st and a good prospect right now, he is their most marketable asset right now that is available. Now as it gets closer to the beginning of the season and there is no market for the other options, the Rangers might have to settle for less. I think something gets done sooner rather than later if they want good value for Kreider.

that is fair and logical, but you are still going w/ "beginning" of season timetable.
I don't see a huge dif betw. a deal now and then as to what Rangers demand and get for him.
I can see that resulting in some chaos potentially for a winning bidder, who will have to make adjustments.
But I don't expect to any significant degree NY gets burned there.
 

Shootertooter

Registered User
Feb 20, 2016
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1,487
You are saying play the kids........Nieves at 25 1/2yrs of age is likely at his ceiling, he does not project to be anything more than a defensive 4C. Saying he is better right now than a 20 and a 21yr old "rookie", who has not reached his potential is a matter of personal opinion......you are not comparing apples to apples here.

Maybe we sell high on Strome......but what is that? a 3rd rd pick? Maybe he stays as ins. in case one of the kids falters.

You are moving the goal posts again, I don't accept your premise that Krav is a natural for center because he has vision. I'm not even sure if he actually is one of the most talented players on the team. I would say Panarin and Zib likely are......oh, so how about we make Zib the 1C?

I agree with you on Chytil not being the best fit for Zib/Kreider.......if you accept your own premise.......... then Nieves has no business being in the convo as anything more than a 4C. I am thinking Quinn will at least try Chytil out at 2C to begin the season. If we are going on talent, as you mentioned as the reason for Krav to be a C, then you must see this as logical.

I disagree with your top line.

Kakko/Zib/Panarin should be that line.

Kreider/Chytil/Krav or Buch.
We seem to have a shortage of RH forwards but the answer is not taking our #1C and making him a winger and throwing a scrub in his spot.
 
Last edited:

doomscroll

Registered User
Jan 15, 2018
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1,167
Chris Kreider is not an elite first line winger, but arguing that he is not a first line winger at all leads me to believe not only that one does not consistently watch or have a background on the players they comment on, but that one is simply stat-watching and espousing a baseless opinion.
 

themelkman

Always Delivers
Apr 26, 2015
11,425
8,403
Calgary, Alberta
Chris Kreider is not an elite first line winger, but arguing that he is not a first line winger at all leads me to believe not only that one does not consistently watch or have a background on the players they comment on, but that one is simply stat-watching and espousing a baseless opinion.
I don’t think that he cant be a first line winger, just that he shouldn’t be for a good team
 

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