News Article: Kovacevic: No excuses for Crosby, Malkin

[IcedCapp]

And this goes back to an argument I got killed for by some a couple months back:

Malkin and Crosby are not Gretzky or Lemieux. They aren't even Jagr in his prime. This tournament once again is proof positive of that.

The game has gotten too systematic, too smart. Gone are the days where your bottom 2-3 defenseman can't pivot well in a certain direction where they can be exploited. Gone are the days where Kurri and Hull would be on highlight reels and taking one timers with NOBODY around them, as if it's some shock that the greatest shooters in the world can score goals.

Today, even the world's best players are a hair's length above those who are considered below them in talent. Today, even the world's best players need help and support.

Alas no. Once again, even the best writer out there falls to the simplistic line of thinking that "THE BEST PLAYERS NEED TO SCORE ALL THE TIME, EVERY TIME!!!" Is it any wonder how casual hockey fans read this and believe it?

You probably got killed for it because it's an inane argument.

Gretzky and Lemieux wouldn't be Gretzky and Lemieux in today's NHL.

Would they still put up absurd point totals? Yes. But the difference between them and #2/#3 wouldn't be nearly as drastic as it was in their era.

Moreover, Lemieux, for all his greatness, only has one more cup than Crosby and Malkin, and they are still in their mid 20s.

And Gretzky, for all his greatness, fell short after leaving the Oilers - who, by the by, continued to win without him.

tl;dr - being Gretzky and Lemieux doesn't mean much in 2014, and when you word it like that (instead of the rest of your post, which is valid), it comes off as a really pointless insult.

 

[#66]

And this goes back to an argument I got killed for by some a couple months back:

Malkin and Crosby are not Gretzky or Lemieux. They aren't even Jagr in his prime. This tournament once again is proof positive of that.

The game has gotten too systematic, too smart. Gone are the days where your bottom 2-3 defenseman can't pivot well in a certain direction where they can be exploited. Gone are the days where Kurri and Hull would be on highlight reels and taking one timers with NOBODY around them, as if it's some shock that the greatest shooters in the world can score goals.

Today, even the world's best players are a hair's length above those who are considered below them in talent. Today, even the world's best players need help and support.

Alas no. Once again, even the best writer out there falls to the simplistic line of thinking that "THE BEST PLAYERS NEED TO SCORE ALL THE TIME, EVERY TIME!!!" Is it any wonder how casual hockey fans read this and believe it?

Do we even get into why they shouldn't be playing an F3 style or does the bolded already explain it?

 

[Crafton]

word up to MtlPensFan for going all bee-in-the-bonnet on Kovacevic on twitter.

Kovacevic and some others in the media seem to think that calling out Crosby/Malkin at every opportunity, often in stunningly inane ways, when coupled with a rah-rah disposition concerning every other facet of the team will create some aura of objectivity.

 

[MtlPenFan]

word up to MtlPensFan for going all bee-in-the-bonnet on Kovacevic on twitter.

Kovacevic and some others in the media seem to think that calling out Crosby/Malkin at every opportunity, often in stunningly inane ways, when coupled with a rah-rah disposition concerning every other facet of the team will create some aura of objectivity.

All of the Pens media, DK included, are taking little jabs at Canadian media and fans complaining about Kunitz being on the team. And I really, REALLY like DK.

When you point out an obvious pro Pens bias, they take umbrage. "I'm NEVER bias when it comes to covering sports" is the response.

So why the jokes about Kunitz being a bum for not scoring 4 goals and making the Latvia game a blowout? And correct me if I'm wrong, EVERY time Kunitz scored a goal for the Pens, it was a collective "Hey Yzerman, here's your perfect winger for Sid"

I don't even want to get started on Madden saying Fleury should be the goalie for Canada.

 

[Shockmaster]

You probably got killed for it because it's an inane argument.

Gretzky and Lemieux wouldn't be Gretzky and Lemieux in today's NHL.

Would they still put up absurd point totals? Yes. But the difference between them and #2/#3 wouldn't be nearly as drastic as it was in their era.

Moreover, Lemieux, for all his greatness, only has one more cup than Crosby and Malkin, and they are still in their mid 20s.

And Gretzky, for all his greatness, fell short after leaving the Oilers - who, by the by, continued to win without him.

tl;dr - being Gretzky and Lemieux doesn't mean much in 2014, and when you word it like that (instead of the rest of your post, which is valid), it comes off as a really pointless insult.

Gretzky and Lemieux were also helped by the fact that coaches weren't so hellbent on defense and systems and that goalies were smaller.

 

[MtlPenFan]

You probably got killed for it because it's an inane argument.

Gretzky and Lemieux wouldn't be Gretzky and Lemieux in today's NHL.

Would they still put up absurd point totals? Yes. But the difference between them and #2/#3 wouldn't be nearly as drastic as it was in their era.

Moreover, Lemieux, for all his greatness, only has one more cup than Crosby and Malkin, and they are still in their mid 20s.

And Gretzky, for all his greatness, fell short after leaving the Oilers - who, by the by, continued to win without him.

tl;dr - being Gretzky and Lemieux doesn't mean much in 2014, and when you word it like that (instead of the rest of your post, which is valid), it comes off as a really pointless insult.

We'll agree to disagree here. To me, Malkin and Crosby are more Forsberg and Sakic than Lemieux, Gretzky or Jagr.

I think people way, way overstate how much better Sid and Geno are than Tavares, Stamkos, etc.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

If people still think today's superstars are in the same league as Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr, it's totally your right to do so.

Personally, I think that's crazy talk.

 

[#66]

The games changed to much to even try to compare players. Then add in the fact that Lemieux and Gretz played 10+ mins more per game than Sid and Malkin.

Its a lot of rush hockey these days. To be honest I think 4 lines has hurt the game and some moron that can just move his feet has taken over for someone that can just fight... but I guess hockeys more about running plays more than creativity now a days.

 

[SEALBound]

Sooooo let's just cut to the overall arguments:

- Is it Crosby/Malkin?

- Is it the players they get to play with?

- Is it how easy DB is to shut down in a 7 game series w/o any adjustments?


These are the three main points that will basically make this thread up. Good article but stats tell part of a story. I'm interested to see where this debate, if it can stay rational, goes. To me, I break it down 33.3% of everything. I blame all three. I don't like how DB stays stubborn in seven game series. I don't like the make up of this team right now. I think Crosby/Malkin DO need to find an unstoppable gear that for us to be successful.

Well...damn...there's goes any comments I had on the matter.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Sooooo let's just cut to the overall arguments:

- Is it Crosby/Malkin?

- Is it the players they get to play with?

- Is it how easy DB is to shut down in a 7 game series w/o any adjustments?


These are the three main points that will basically make this thread up. Good article but stats tell part of a story. I'm interested to see where this debate, if it can stay rational, goes. To me, I break it down 33.3% of everything. I blame all three. I don't like how DB stays stubborn in seven game series. I don't like the make up of this team right now. I think Crosby/Malkin DO need to find an unstoppable gear that for us to be successful.

I'd put most of the blame on Sid/Geno

Over the last year Sid/Geno have been no shows in the biggest games they have played(Boston series/Olympics) i think its something you have to be worried about going into the playoffs.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Crosby and Malkin are far, far down the list of what our biggest problems have been since 2009.

Goaltending, defense, coaching, top six wingers, bottom six depth, and injuries have all been WAY bigger problems than they have.

They are great, the two best in the world, and they work harder than anyone else on the team. But it's absolutely ridiculous that they are expected to carry the team night in and night out. They need help, and I don't understand how it's their fault that they don't get it.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I wouldn't put any blame on Sid/Geno til the Boston series last year, those guys are payed to score goals and its a fact that they haven't done there job in the biggest games this past year.

Sid/Geno both admitted last year in the Boston series that they didn't play good, im sure Geno would say the same thing about the Olympics this year.

Sid still has 2 games to change that at the Olympics this year, im sure he realizes he needs to step up his game.

 

[stepdad gaary]

haha sick article, DK

 

[Waffle Fries]

I wouldn't put any blame on Sid/Geno til the Boston series last year, those guys are payed to score goals and its a fact that they haven't done there job in the biggest games this past year.

Sid/Geno both admitted last year in the Boston series that they didn't play good, im sure Geno would say the same thing about the Olympics this year.

Sid still has 2 games to change that at the Olympics this year, im sure he realizes he needs to step up his game.

I just find the notion that we should "worry about" the two best players in the world come playoff time to be a bit ridiculous. They are the least of our worries.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

If people still think today's superstars are in the same league as Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr, it's totally your right to do so.

Personally, I think that's crazy talk.

Are we to believe out of all the sports, hockey is the only one where it's players will never improve?

 

[Al Smith]

Are we to believe out of all the sports, hockey is the only one where it's players will never improve?

The bottom players (and goalies) have improved more than the superstars have since before the clutch and grab era. And hockey dumbs down the enforcement of its rules to hinder the superstars' ability to be superstars (in contrast to the NFL). If Sid and Geno were playing in 1988, I don't know if they'd be scoring 200 points a season, but I'm confident they would be into the 150-170 range.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The bottom players (and goalies) have improved more than the superstars have since before the clutch and grab era. And hockey dumbs down the enforcement of its rules to hinder the superstars' ability to be superstars (in contrast to the NFL). If Sid and Geno were playing in 1988, I don't know if they'd be scoring 200 points a season, but I'm confident they would be into the 150-170 range.

The bolded has been a big issue for me for a while now. Compare the NHL to the other North American pro leagues, and it's the one league that seems to do the most to stifle its superstar players, whereas the other leagues are finding ways to highlight those guys.

I don't care how talented a player is, I don't think we'll ever see a player dominate the league as much as those guys (Mario, Wayne, Jagr, etc.) again until the league itself changes its mindset about what aspect of the game it wants to be known for.

 

[sf expat71]

I just love articles that complain without providing solutions. So yeah, sid and geno need to score more, right? That is dk's solution to how we would've won all of the previous series? seriously, if they are the problem, there is no solution...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I would put a portion of the blame on the players, but for the most part it's the coaching staff.

They are the guys that over see them, they are the ones that have to come up with a game plan to use the firepower they have, effectively and come up with a game plan that counters the other team's strategies.

One of the biggest gripes we all have is that...

• Bylsma is stubborn
• Bylsma & his staff refuse to adapt
• Bylsma needed help and asked for a 3rd assistant, but how much of a difference was made to the team's overall game strategy/system?
• The coaching staff does not effectively use its roster.

Other teams have buried us not because they have a better roster or anything of that sort, I find it's mostly because the coach knows how to say the right things to it's players, get the most out of them and come up with the right tweaks/adjustments to the strategy/system to effectively counter or have a better shot at countering the other team's strengths and exploiting their weaknesses.

This coaching staff likely does not have the mental make up to make that happen, although I think the gold medal win for Bylsma could be the sort of thing that wakes him up and makes him want to try new things.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I just find the notion that we should "worry about" the two best players in the world come playoff time to be a bit ridiculous. They are the least of our worries.

In Sid and Geno's biggest games this past year which i consider to be the Boston series and Olympic games

Geno has 1 goal and 3 points in 9 games.

Sid has 2 assists in 8 games.

That's awful, especially when you consider some of the opponents Sid and Geno played against in the Olympics.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

http://triblive.com/sports/dejankov...viewpenguins+(Penguins+Stories)#axzz2tjeJnWGu

Kovacevic is the most consistent pens writer for the trib and he makes some great points. The Crosby stat of just one 3rd period goal in his last 28 playoff hockey games is surprising to say the least.

That being said, what do you guys make of both Crosby and Malkin's recent subpar (for their lofty standards) playoff performances? Since 2011, Crosby has 13 points in 17 games, Malkin has 11. Have we been that severely outcoached in the playoffs recently, or is this a case of the two best players in the world not being able to "get to their game?"

Teams have figured out how to beat the Pens in the POs. With the poorly constructed top 2 lines, put you best 2 guys on Sid or Geno and let their line-mates try to beat the other 3 guys.

 

[vodeni]

The blame will go in history books on Geno and Sid. History does not care whether you had bad coach, bad system or any other reasons. there may be some geek analyst that will research this era and say well maybe they did not win all of that because of this or that,

If they want to win they have to be vocal in demanding things that allow them to shine. if they are handcuffed in aseries and being shadowed by two players they have to tell coach get me someone who can do something to relief the pressure or whatever it may be..

messi is by far the best soccer player in the world. he flourished in a structured well oiled machine of Barcelona where some of the other best players in the world carry a lot of water around enabling him to do the magic. Needles to say when he plays for Argentina, again with some of the best players in the world, he is invisible cause they usually don't have a half decent coach,or play without any resemblence of system...

 

[Shady Machine]

Do we even get into why they shouldn't be playing an F3 style or does the bolded already explain it?

You keep saying this. What do you mean by an F3 style? There is always an F3

Please explain what this means.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Are we to believe out of all the sports, hockey is the only one where it's players will never improve?

I'm talking about the best of the best. Is Marshawn Lynch better than Walter Payton? Is Yasiel Puig better than Barry Bonds? Is Roy Hibbert better than Hakeem Olajuwon?


Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr are on a different level. Part of the reason why players don't take minute-long+ shifts anymore is because these guys aren't playing in their prime anymore, producing like they used to be. They set a standard. Everybody followed.

If these guys were playing in the NHL today (in their prime), the league would look a lot different and coaches would also coach differently.

There's no way a coach today would take an in-your-prime Gretzky and insist he play a 200-foot game, or work on face-offs. When you produced offense as consistently as Gretzky or Lemieux did, you could let some of the details slide.

The emphasis on more and more coaching came into play once these guys were no longer in their prime, or had already retired. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Waffle Fries]

In Sid and Geno's biggest games this past year which i consider to be the Boston series and Olympic games

Geno has 1 goal and 3 points in 9 games.

Sid has 2 assists in 8 games.

That's awful, especially when you consider some of the opponents Sid and Geno played against in the Olympics.

Using the Olympics in this discussion makes no sense. Not only would I argue that 3 of the 4 (5 in Geno's case) Olympic games they played weren't "big" games at all, but to make judgements about the NHL playoffs based on a completely foreign situation with a different ice surface, less ice time, and linemates they are uncomfortable with makes no sense to me. It's also not like they have looked bad in the games they've played. The points aren't there, but they played well for the most part.

You can use the Boston series, but no one scored in that series and we had a plethora of other issues. Again, they are the least of my concerns. Crosby is the 5th fastest to reach 100 career playoff points (or if you still want to talk about the Olympics, the Golden Goal scorer) and Geno is a Conn Symthe winner.