News Article: Kovacevic: No excuses for Crosby, Malkin

[Rhyno871]

http://triblive.com/sports/dejankov...viewpenguins+(Penguins+Stories)#axzz2tjeJnWGu

Kovacevic is the most consistent pens writer for the trib and he makes some great points. The Crosby stat of just one 3rd period goal in his last 28 playoff hockey games is surprising to say the least.

That being said, what do you guys make of both Crosby and Malkin's recent subpar (for their lofty standards) playoff performances? Since 2011, Crosby has 13 points in 17 games, Malkin has 11. Have we been that severely outcoached in the playoffs recently, or is this a case of the two best players in the world not being able to "get to their game?"

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[Crafton]

i think they'll be drawn and quartered if they continue to disappoint. personally, i think that'd be letting them off easy.

 

[Michael8771*]

I put more blame on the coach than I do the players and here's why: In the playoffs there is far more defensive strategies, schemes and game plans geared at stopping these guys. Our coaches inability to adapt and modify his system to counteract, or at least to some degree mitigate the oppositions attempts, is where I see the biggest issue with the team. In other words coach disco has no answer. Or at the very least not a very good one. With Jacques Martin brought in, my hope is he will help improve our chances in developing a scheme to neutralize these problems. I really like JM, He's one of the reasons I have some modicum of optimism for the post season.

 

[ColePens]

Sooooo let's just cut to the overall arguments:

- Is it Crosby/Malkin?

- Is it the players they get to play with?

- Is it how easy DB is to shut down in a 7 game series w/o any adjustments?


These are the three main points that will basically make this thread up. Good article but stats tell part of a story. I'm interested to see where this debate, if it can stay rational, goes. To me, I break it down 33.3% of everything. I blame all three. I don't like how DB stays stubborn in seven game series. I don't like the make up of this team right now. I think Crosby/Malkin DO need to find an unstoppable gear that for us to be successful.

 

[Rhyno871]

I put more blame on the coach than I do the players and here's why: In the playoffs there is far more defensive strategies, schemes and game plans geared at stopping these guys. Our coaches inability to adapt and modify his system to counteract, or at least to some degree mitigate the oppositions attempts, is where I see the biggest issue with the team. In other words coach disco has no answer. Or at the very least not a very good one. With Jacques Martin brought in, my hope is he will help improve our chances in developing a scheme to neutralize these problems. I really like JM, He's one of the reasons I have some modicum of optimism for the post season.

There was lots of talk about Martin when he was first brought in during the offseason, but so far I've yet to see the impact from his schemes during the regular season. It seems to me that its the same old story of players like Orpik, Glass, Adams, Engelland (when he plays D) being out there during the most critical points. And we know as long as Byslma is in charge, that is not going to change. So even in a seven game series where Martin's expertise could be best utilized, I just don't see any major impact being made unless he can convince Dan to stop being so damn stubborn.

 

[UnrealMachine]

http://triblive.com/sports/dejankov...viewpenguins+(Penguins+Stories)#axzz2tjeJnWGu

Kovacevic is the most consistent pens writer for the trib and he makes some great points. The Crosby stat of just one 3rd period goal in his last 28 playoff hockey games is surprising to say the least.

That being said, what do you guys make of both Crosby and Malkin's recent subpar (for their lofty standards) playoff performances? Since 2011, Crosby has 13 points in 17 games, Malkin has 11. Have we been that severely outcoached in the playoffs recently, or is this a case of the two best players in the world not being able to "get to their game?"

You completely missed the qualifying statements in your paraphrasing of that article. From the article:

In NHL playoff series in which the Penguins were eliminated since winning the Stanley Cup in 2009 — not including 2011, when Crosby and Malkin were injured — Crosby had 13 points in 17 games, Malkin 11 points in 17 games. And nothing at all on Tuukka Rask, you might recall.

Those 17 games games were only referring to games against Montreal, Philadelphia & Boston. Overall Crosby has 42 points in 33 games since 2009. Malkin = 35 points in 34 games. To me, it shows we lack secondary & tertiary scoring. If a teams' winning in the playoffs is predicated on two players scoring a point per game every playoff series, you need a new plan.

 

[Rhyno871]

i think they'll be drawn and quartered if they continue to disappoint. personally, i think that'd be letting them off easy.

Ray Shero put together one of the most formidable lineups in recent memory during last years playoffs, albeit at the expense of some potentially promising assets. Regardless of how screwed up the lines were, I expect more from the two best players in the world in high pressure situations, especially when I have seen them produce at more than a ppg level with so much less i.e. Talbot, Fedotenko, Guerin

 

[Al Smith]

Sooooo let's just cut to the overall arguments:

- Is it Crosby/Malkin?

- Is it the players they get to play with?

- Is it how easy DB is to shut down in a 7 game series w/o any adjustments?


These are the three main points that will basically make this thread up. Good article but stats tell part of a story. I'm interested to see where this debate, if it can stay rational, goes. To me, I break it down 33.3% of everything. I blame all three. I don't like how DB stays stubborn in seven game series. I don't like the make up of this team right now. I think Crosby/Malkin DO need to find an unstoppable gear that for us to be successful.

You need to add the general suspension of rules like interference/hooking/holding in the playoffs to your list.

And you could add the quality of the opponents in the playoffs (probably only a small part, but they ran into a superior team in Boston last year; Flyers not so much).

I disagree with the article suggesting Geno is not as difficult to play with as Sid is. I think this is a big issue in the Olympics when the players have virtually no time to play with each other. These guys are just on a different plane when it comes to playmaking and that takes some time to get used to.

This year's Olympics have been interesting for, among other things, the fact that there have been few blowouts, including none of the traditional 10-2/12-1 types that, without going back to check, I think we've seen in the past. Weaker European teams have figured out how to slow the more skilled teams down, refs allowing some clutching and grabbing, and the general skill level of players probably getting a little closer.

As far as recent playoff performances go, I'd say it's a little bit of the three factors you cite, as well as the lack of rule enforcement. And, I know it's sacrilege here, but I'd but HCDB's contribution at a bit less than the other three.

 

[LetangInTheSO]

You completely missed the qualifying statements in your paraphrasing of that article. From the article:



Those 17 games games were only referring to games against Montreal, Philadelphia & Boston. Overall Crosby has 42 points in 33 games since 2009. Malkin = 35 points in 34 games. To me, it shows we lack secondary & tertiary scoring. If a teams' winning in the playoffs is predicated on two players scoring a point per game every playoff series, you need a new plan.

Ding ding ding!

If we added one more serviceable bonafide top 6 player, we would have the undisputed best top 6 of any NHL team. Currently, we share the title for "best top 6" with Chicago. In other words, our top 6 isn't the problem. Our bottom 6, however, is probably the worst in the NHL.

Our 3rd/4th lines don't score, they don't prevent the opposition from scoring, and they don't wear the opposition down to ease the battle for our top 6. They have absolutely no identity. I can't think of a Stanley Cup champion in my lifetime with a worse bottom 6 than our team boasts now. This needs to be Shero's area of focus going forward, and I'm confident that it will be.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

The points in the last 17 playoff games is sketchy. So 2012, Crosby is coming back from the concussion with, like, 20 games played and with a broken jaw in 2013; Malkin had injury problems in the 2013 season. But ignoring that, 4 of those games is a stacked team scoring 2 ****ing goals while getting swept. Remove that and it 13/13 for Crosby and 11/13 for Malkin. And yes, I do consider Boston to be a team **** up of epic proportions, they were too offensively stacked to single out Crosby and Malkin.

The injury issue is still ever present, and I'm still pissed about the coaching with that series. I'm not going to put that on those two, but the inability of this team to be healthy is maddening.

GWG are an odd stat to me. It ignores tieing goals, go ahead goals, back breaking goals, opening scoring, setting up the GWG, etc. So, meh. Crosby only having 1 third period goal is similar, it ignores what was happening in those games and if he set anything up. The Olympics, it's 3 games in and Ovechkin and Malkin ignore each other from what I've seen; which is actually an interesting subject.

There are legitimate post season concerns, but not the spouting stats kind. Bylsma's coaching, Fleury's Fleurying, team collapses, Crosby and Malkin freaking out, the winger situation. Those are concerns, but stats are easier and sound more dramatic.

 

[IcedCapp]

I don't care how many 3rd period goals someone scores.

That's lazy, ignorant, fast food thinking.

If you're more focused on how many goals someone is scoring in the 3rd period than goals they are scoring, period, you realize you're not smart and are desperate to cover it up.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I don't care how many 3rd period goals someone scores.

That's lazy, ignorant, fast food thinking.

If you're more focused on how many goals someone is scoring in the 3rd period than goals they are scoring, period, you realize you're not smart and are desperate to cover it up.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. Dejan essentially cherry picked random ass stats that fit his argument. Claiming that using "third period goals" is a great point is even more laughable.


And the 17 games were from series we were eliminated in, a fact the OP conveniently left out.

So you're telling me that in the games we lose, our players score less? I am completely shocked by this revelation.

 

[Crafton]

So you're telling me that in the games we lose, our players score less? I am completely shocked by this revelation.

How dare you scoff at such hard hitting analysis?

 

[tinkezione]

Sooooo let's just cut to the overall arguments:

- Is it Crosby/Malkin?

- Is it the players they get to play with?

- Is it how easy DB is to shut down in a 7 game series w/o any adjustments?

I'd say it's a split between the last two (good) points. Crosby and Malkin are awesome individuals, arguably the best two hockey players in the world, but the sport has developed so much also tactically during recent years, that there is no room for individuals to create miracles alone any more. Everything boils down to team support, which leads to the last two points you mentioned. Our bottom-6 is atrocious comparing to constant contender teams like Chicago, Boston and St.Louis, and the way Bylsma stubbornly employs certain pieces and schemes pretty much hands the keys to the opposing coach. Bylsma might be the best possible coach for 1-game series, but in 7-game series today, the better coaching usually wins.

EDIT: LetangInTheSO brilliantly mentioned our bottom-6 above.

 

[Michael8771*]

There was lots of talk about Martin when he was first brought in during the offseason, but so far I've yet to see the impact from his schemes during the regular season. It seems to me that its the same old story of players like Orpik, Glass, Adams, Engelland (when he plays D) being out there during the most critical points. And we know as long as Byslma is in charge, that is not going to change. So even in a seven game series where Martin's expertise could be best utilized, I just don't see any major impact being made unless he can convince Dan to stop being so damn stubborn.

The system has been modified. It was likely gonna be anyhow coming into this season. But I do believe JM has some input here. We have more reversals and D to D than ever before under Dan. Also both the PK and PP are number one or two in the league. I believe JM has a hand in some of this as well. We are less predictable and can play a more patient east-west style ala the LA Kings. I think we have more diverse ways of attacking and defending. This quick up, stretch pass, go go, north-south play is only part of what we do now. Once the Bruins realized we were relatively one dimensional, the series was over before it really got started. AT LEAST NOW WE ARE EMPLOYING DIFFERENT TACTICS which to some degree should be harder to defend. In theory anyway.

 

[Ugene Magic]

This article brings us back around full circle, again.

It's the same old stuff we've not only beat into the ground, it's been pulverized.

Top six wing:
Bottom six:
System:
DB not adjusting poor decisions:

Rinse and repeat. Just take the many threads and move them into here.

Are we not yet tired of talking about the same things over and over?

I know...I know. I'll remove myself at this point.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Another good article by Dejan, Crosby and Malkin were the 2 biggest reasons pens lost to Boston, if Canada and Russia lose and Crosby and Malkin continue to struggle they will be the main players who get the blame(with OV)

 

[Malkinburgh]

I wonder if they will get the Lebron treatment, but to me, their production is just a small part of the bigger problem.

 

[Penguinzilla*]

Well, teams key in on Crosby/Malkin in the playoffs, and then what's left? Not much. If they don't do virtually everything themselves, there's not much hope with this lineup. No one else is going to create offense.

The "2 mega superstar system" may not be the best option.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Another good article by Dejan, Crosby and Malkin were the 2 biggest reasons pens lost to Boston, if Canada and Russia lose and Crosby and Malkin continue to struggle they will be the main players who get the blame(with OV)

I actually thought in games 3 and 4 Malkin was pretty strong and unlucky. He played alright, Crosby was by far more disappointing in that series than Geno

 

[ZapRowsdower13]

You completely missed the qualifying statements in your paraphrasing of that article. From the article:



Those 17 games games were only referring to games against Montreal, Philadelphia & Boston. Overall Crosby has 42 points in 33 games since 2009. Malkin = 35 points in 34 games. To me, it shows we lack secondary & tertiary scoring. If a teams' winning in the playoffs is predicated on two players scoring a point per game every playoff series, you need a new plan.

Oh thank god. I almost had a heart attack looking at those stats thinking 'That's not true...THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!'

 

[Darth Vitale]

Don't agree with the inference about Malkin being selfish or "stick handling through entire nations".

In the first place, he's been looking to dish and not shoot practically every time they had solid possession in the zone. What's more I did not see him do that more than once or twice maybe when looking at the whole of the US and Finland games. If he tries to stick handle through the entire Norwegian team, who cares? It's Norway. When it counted most, Malkin was making smart plays this Olympics. But the guys he was playing with were not thinking the game at the same level either (much like Crosby). Malkin was a step ahead of them and surprised them with some of his passes.

In the second place, he tries to stick-handle through 3 or 4 guys at the blue line all the time in Pittsburgh. It's just what he does. When we're not able to gain possession with our normal system he tries to take over and skate it through traffic (which almost never works). I agree you can criticize him for that, but that's rarely his first move, and in any case it's about gaining zone possession not about hogging pucks or trying to get a bunch of shots off to pad his stats.

 

[DeadGator401]

I expect better. Plain and simple. Our best players need to play like the best to be successful. Someone said Earlier, they've done much more with less.

 

[vikingGoalie]

I will say, however, that I do blame Crosby some for our meltdown against boston.

Game 2, that idiotic pass across the middle at our blue line that led to boston goal, which started us running around like our hair was on fire. Crosby sometimes tries to force passes, that only he can make, when he really should not.

I feel like on our melt down games (see game 2 against boston, and most of the Philly series) That crosby tends to do to much and make plays that directly result in great scoring chances for the opposition.

He has to take what is given to an extent, not give the opposition golden scoring chances. He also needs to assert himself more vocally in the locker room when the team is playing like idiots. That is a huge part of wearing the "C" not just leading by example.

Don't get me wrong, love Crosby as our Captain. We are super fortunate to have Sid and Geno. Just saying I don't criticize them when they can't super mario their way through the other team and score at will, but rather when they play dumb and don't lead the team to playing smarter playoff hockey.

 

[MtlPenFan]

And this goes back to an argument I got killed for by some a couple months back:

Malkin and Crosby are not Gretzky or Lemieux. They aren't even Jagr in his prime. This tournament once again is proof positive of that.

The game has gotten too systematic, too smart. Gone are the days where your bottom 2-3 defenseman can't pivot well in a certain direction where they can be exploited. Gone are the days where Kurri and Hull would be on highlight reels and taking one timers with NOBODY around them, as if it's some shock that the greatest shooters in the world can score goals.

Today, even the world's best players are a hair's length above those who are considered below them in talent. Today, even the world's best players need help and support.

Alas no. Once again, even the best writer out there falls to the simplistic line of thinking that "THE BEST PLAYERS NEED TO SCORE ALL THE TIME, EVERY TIME!!!" Is it any wonder how casual hockey fans read this and believe it?