Koskinen stealing the starting job?

[GOilers88]

I dunno, I hear you, Quick is burned out, that's fair. But Quick has never had to encounter playing on a team like this that routinely allows 40SA in games and allows a Dozen premium scoring chances a game. I've seen a ton of games (Kings are my 2nd team) where Quick faced maybe 3-4 quality chances in a night and gave up 2. What I'm saying though is confirmed somewhat with the career stat. If Talbot really was very ordinary outside one year than his stats would reflect that. Overall he's been solid in his career. The thing is its not easy being a goalie here. Koski is just starting to encounter that.

Lets not forget that this club has been a goalie graveyard and with some that resurrected their career elsewhere and some that never could. But with most coming in here with promise. The Edmonton Oilers have been the "short straw" goalie assignment for a longtime. Goalies haven't necessarily wanted to come here.

I agree, Talbot has had to cover for an exceptionally bad defense corps. But I don't think it's fair to expect him to have to be a vezina goalie when I really don't think he is. Having Both Talbs and Koski could be a damn fine tandem until the Oilers finally manage to find that definite number 1 guy, assuming you can sign them both for less than they currently are.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Technique doesnt really matter to me, its make the saves or dont.

You already know my stance on Talbot, and its not changing. I have no faith in him at all.

Im actually getting concerned with Koski, but i know hes still the better option at this point in time.

Well, that's it in a nutshell and where we disagree. Except that I gave two examples where form revolutionized a sport and position and one of them was Tretiak. You seriously gonna say that Tretiak's form didn't matter? Every player on both teams would disagree with that assessment. For decades he was considered the best goalie that lived and he was that because of his revolutionary form and technique.

But hey. why would you NEVER have faith in Talbot? Or is your blanket assessment just faith based in which case its not possible to discuss it. You used the word faith, I'm not trying to play semantics, but I think we're onto something in regards how you cannot like Talbot.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I agree, Talbot has had to cover for an exceptionally bad defense corps. But I don't think it's fair to expect him to have to be a vezina goalie when I really don't think he is. Having Both Talbs and Koski could be a damn fine tandem until the Oilers finally manage to find that definite number 1 guy, assuming you can sign them both for less than they currently are.

I think if you put a goalie on Talbot on the right team he would be considered much differently. For instance Chicago won Stanley Cups without elite goaltending. Blues, Sharks never got their because they never had it. Put Talbot on a Sharks club the last number of seasons and they could have won a cup.


the good news for Oilers fans is its not clear yet whether Rittich in Calgary is elite or not. Its too early to tell. NHL correction has not occurred. Just because a goalie hasn't been solved yet doesn't mean it won't occur. I think a Ryan Smyth or Glen Anderson would completely unravel Rittich. That's just an aside. But if I'm an NHL coach I'm telling players to get in his grill. Bump him, frustrate him, beak at him. He's a loose cannon.

The other good news is obviously that a Talbot resign is probably easier now. The bad news is Chia may mistakenly move him for nothing much in return. For that alone people should want Talbot to do as well as possible.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Please tell me you are not this specious. Do you judge goalies simply on amount of shutouts? does anybody?

Talbot has played lots of good games this season, and last season and it certainly hasn't "been 2years since he's been good" as another poster commonly suggests and even after he's corrected on it.

It might surprise you but look back and you see that Talbot has played around 10 good games this season. Its not like its rare. He's had 5 where he's been excellent. Needs to be more, I get that, but the thought that he's done is what I'm reacting to.

Talbot has flashes of good goaltending for sure. He has a lot more flashes of poor goaltending. The poster who said he hasn’t been consistently good in two years is correct. Unless setting a record for most goals on the 1st shot of the game last year is considered good.

 

[GMofOilers]

Well, that's it in a nutshell and where we disagree. Except that I gave two examples where form revolutionized a sport and position and one of them was Tretiak. You seriously gonna say that Tretiak's form didn't matter? Every player on both teams would disagree with that assessment. For decades he was considered the best goalie that lived and he was that because of his revolutionary form and technique.

But hey. why would you NEVER have faith in Talbot? Or is your blanket assessment just faith based in which case its not possible to discuss it. You used the word faith, I'm not trying to play semantics, but I think we're onto something in regards how you cannot like Talbot.

Talbots technique isn’t good in my opinion. He’s mentally weak. He can’t just let in 1, it’s always followed by 1 in succession.

He makes himself small in the net, and loses his position in net way to often. He also has one of the worst gloves in the league. I have also never seen a goalie not see a puck so much in my life. I also think he’s a brutal puck handler.

Koski, the book is still out on him. He’s a huge goalie that makes saves look easy (not the last few games) I like his battle and compete. Looking to be a streaky goalie at this point.

We know what we have in Talbot. We have a back up goalie. He won’t be here next year.

I would like to see what we have in Koski, cause no one knows right now. Very well could be a backup goalie.

At this point the Oilers are lucky they didn’t depend solely on Talbot in the off-season. Our record could be worse then last year without Koski.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Talbot has flashes of good goaltending for sure. He has a lot more flashes of poor goaltending. The poster who said he hasn’t been consistently good in two years is correct. Unless setting a record for most goals on the 1st shot of the game last year is considered good.

Thanks for a reasonable reply.

Some of our takes stem from differences in when we were introduced to hockey. It used to be a common statement that goalies needed a first shot to be relatively easy to feel the puck and get into the game. Goaltending being also confidence based. It used to be regarded as terrible to goalies for teams to make the first SA a 5 bell scoring chance, which the Oilers make a habit of doing.

My own term is happenchance. That shit just sometimes happens. Some of what unfolds is almost random. The first shot GA started being a thing, people started tracking it, blaming it all on Talbot, and thinking that it was an enormous outlier. On average teams get scored on on first shot around 10 times a year. So even on average its going to happen a fair amount. I can't remember how many Talbot had last year. I do remember the team starts games late and gives up a lot early on. But I wouldn't judge a goalie on that too much. That's not even looking at the technique or form. That's looking at an odd stat that says as much about team. This team also packed in some of the games before they started and McLellan said at times the team wasn't ready to play.

 

[GOilers88]

I think if you put a goalie on Talbot on the right team he would be considered much differently. For instance Chicago won Stanley Cups without elite goaltending. Blues, Sharks never got their because they never had it. Put Talbot on a Sharks club the last number of seasons and they could have won a cup.


the good news for Oilers fans is its not clear yet whether Rittich in Calgary is elite or not. Its too early to tell. NHL correction has not occurred. Just because a goalie hasn't been solved yet doesn't mean it won't occur. I think a Ryan Smyth or Glen Anderson would completely unravel Rittich. That's just an aside. But if I'm an NHL coach I'm telling players to get in his grill. Bump him, frustrate him, beak at him. He's a loose cannon.

The other good news is obviously that a Talbot resign is probably easier now. The bad news is Chia may mistakenly move him for nothing much in return. For that alone people should want Talbot to do as well as possible.

I also think we should keep him. I also believe Corey Crawford has been criminally underrated for years.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Talbots technique isn’t good in my opinion. He’s mentally weak. He can’t just let in 1, it’s always followed by 1 in succession.

He makes himself small in the net, and loses his position in net way to often. He also has one of the worst gloves in the league. I have also never seen a goalie not see a puck so much in my life. I also think he’s a brutal puck handler.

Koski, the book is still out on him. He’s a huge goalie that makes saves look easy (not the last few games) I like his battle and compete. Looking to be a streaky goalie at this point.

We know what we have in Talbot. We have a back up goalie. He won’t be here next year.

I would like to see what we have in Koski, cause no one knows right now. Very well could be a backup goalie.

At this point the Oilers are lucky they didn’t depend solely on Talbot in the off-season. Our record could be worse then last year without Koski.

I've bolded the distortions in your posts. Because these are different from what scouting would state.

He isn't mentally weak. Nobody can play 85 Reg season/playoff games at an exceptional level and be mentally weak. It just isn't possible. You're flat out wrong.

Talbot is above average at tracking a puck. Conversely Dubs had lots of trouble tracking pucks here and had to take specific instruction offseason to get over that.

Talbot is not a back up goalie. He could probably be a starter in 10-12 teams in this league. More to the point 20 or more teams would have had him as their starter in 16-17. Consensus was that the Oilers hit a jackpot with Talbot after that season. Plus that Talbot has been the starter here since. He was last season, he started this season, and I bet he finishes this season as starter.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

I kind of agree we keep talbot, but what would you guys pay him. Factoring in his play in the last two years.

 

[bone]

Please tell me you are not this specious. Do you judge goalies simply on amount of shutouts? does anybody?

Talbot has played lots of good games this season, and last season and it certainly hasn't "been 2years since he's been good" as another poster commonly suggests and even after he's corrected on it.

It might surprise you but look back and you see that Talbot has played around 10 good games this season. Its not like its rare. He's had 5 where he's been excellent. Needs to be more, I get that, but the thought that he's done is what I'm reacting to.

Yes he's had good starts but too many bad this year. it's just been too inconsistent. Using the Quality Start metric, he's only had 8 quality starts out of 21. That's not good enough. However his good starts have been really good with 4 of them being over .950, and the other 4 being over .926. But he's also had 6 sub .850 games which is really bad.

The good news though is that he seems to be coming out of it though as he's had 3 really good starts in his last 6, 1 average start (St. Louis) and the two poor starts were in very poor team performances (Winnipeg, San Jose). He's also been solid in both relief appearances.

Reality is we need them both to be successful as neither is overly consistent at the moment and hopefully each of them finds another hot streak or two through the rest of the year to keep the team playing meaningful hockey.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Yes he's had good starts but too many bad this year. it's just been too inconsistent. Using the Quality Start metric, he's only had 8 quality starts out of 21. That's not good enough. However his good starts have been really good with 4 of them being over .950, and the other 4 being over .926. But he's also had 6 sub .850 games which is really bad.

The good news though is that he seems to be coming out of it though as he's had 3 really good starts in his last 6, 1 average start (St. Louis) and the two poor starts were in very poor team performances (Winnipeg, San Jose). He's also been solid in both relief appearances.

Reality is we need them both to be successful as neither is overly consistent at the moment and hopefully each of them finds another hot streak or two through the rest of the year to keep the team playing meaningful hockey.

Koskinen was consistent and then completely fell off the deep end.

 

[bone]

Koskinen was consistent and then completely fell off the deep end.

Consistency to me isn't defined by a 10 game hot streak where a guy plays lights out. It's someone who consistently plays well keeping the cold streaks as short as possible, which Cam did two years ago and has struggled with since.

Mikko certainly has had better numbers overall, but he's also only put up 3 "Quality Starts" in his last 10 and only 1 in his last 6 while also having 2 disaster starts (.333 and .625). Hopefully, he's got his first cold streak out of the way, but if he hasn't we need Cam to help weather the stormy periods (or vice versa).

Since December 5th, Cam is 3-2-1 with 2.68 GAA, and .917 Pct in 447 minutes. Kosko is 4-5-0, 3.34 GAA and .901 Pct. in 449 minutes.

We need both guys if we want to have any chance.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yes he's had good starts but too many bad this year. it's just been too inconsistent. Using the Quality Start metric, he's only had 8 quality starts out of 21. That's not good enough. However his good starts have been really good with 4 of them being over .950, and the other 4 being over .926. But he's also had 6 sub .850 games which is really bad.

The good news though is that he seems to be coming out of it though as he's had 3 really good starts in his last 6, 1 average start (St. Louis) and the two poor starts were in very poor team performances (Winnipeg, San Jose). He's also been solid in both relief appearances.

Reality is we need them both to be successful as neither is overly consistent at the moment and hopefully each of them finds another hot streak or two through the rest of the year to keep the team playing meaningful hockey.

With fairness this metric is not counting his two relief performances which have both been excellent. Mopping up is hard to do. That brings the figure to 10 solid games .

Not familiar with the metric you are using but it seems to be arbitrary cutoffs. As bad as Talbot has been in 6 games he's had zero GP that approach the toxic, get pulled 2 starts that Koski has had. In an arbitrary metric this could mean Koski has had only two very bad starts but they were horrifically bad. If one digs further the 6 games in which Talbot was bad, the whole club was brutal most of those games.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Koskinen has turned back into a pumpkin.

 

[bone]

With fairness this metric is not counting his two relief performances which have both been excellent. Mopping up is hard to do. That brings the figure to 10 solid games .

Not familiar with the metric you are using but it seems to be arbitrary cutoffs. As bad as Talbot has been in 6 games he's had zero GP that approach the toxic, get pulled 2 starts that Koski has had. In an arbitrary metric this could mean Koski has had only two very bad starts but they were horrifically bad. If one digs further the 6 games in which Talbot was bad, the whole club was brutal most of those games.

It's based off games where their save percentage is above league average, or above .885 if the opposition had less than 20 shots against (I think Vollman created it). It isn't perfect and it does lose context a bit though as it doesn't count a game like Kosko vs. Avalanche due to some late goals, despite that being subjective a quality start, but it is a quick way to look at things.

Agreed Talbots non-"Quality Starts" weren't really that bad though when viewed with proper context, (i.e. St. Louis's strange goal followed by a 5 min penalty kill dropped his percentage below average on the games despite a decent start, the entire team belly flopping vs. San Jose and Winnipeg going ballistic on Edmonton in the third period) and certainly nowhere near the belly flops of Kosko vs. Vancouver and LA.

Agreed, his relief performance were very good and ultimately they are responsible for the overall swing though in GAA and Pct. I posted a few posts back. Especially when coupled with Kosko's poor start in each of those as you'd think the opposition wouldn't continue to score at the same rate if Kosko stayed in. (excluding those games Kosko is 4-3, 2.60, 0.924 and Talbot, 3-2-1, 3.13, 0.910). Understanding the swing in these case show that Talbot has been a little more consistent the past month, but less spectacular.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

I kind of agree we keep talbot, but what would you guys pay him. Factoring in his play in the last two years.

one year show me deals

 

[Olof]

Koskinen is much better than Talbot. Stats support this fact. Koskinen is a product of a Finnish goaltending school.

Goaltending is not about voodoo and spiritual fugacci . ItsI about your technical, mental and physical skills. And Koskinen is better in all of those. I think Edmonton staff overplayed Talbot on previous years and he hasn't recovered from it .. Oilers problem s are not inbein-bet the pipes. .

 

[Canada Drai]

Koskinen has turned back into a pumpkin.

Nah, he got that Cinderella swag back.

 

[GMofOilers]

3 wins in his last 5 games

Talbot has 4 wins in his last 14 games.

 

[Canada Drai]

3 wins in his last 5 games

Talbot has 4 wins in his last 14 games.

"Have you seen Koskinen's last 2 games though"
-Drivesaitl

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Nah, he got that Cinderella swag back.

Because his coach bailed him out after he let in an oopsie.

 

[Canada Drai]

Because his coach bailed him out after he let in an oopsie.

He would have saved it if it wasn't offside.

 

[GMofOilers]

I would love to see Koski play 10 in a row, even if he has a bad game, throw him right back in there the next.

Talbot helps this team lose, hes done here. Time to see what we have with Koski.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

He would have saved it if it wasn't offside.

...But he didn't. That's the point. The Canuck being on the ice had no bearing on him getting scored on, unless Koskinen likes watching line changes.

He was out of position on quite a few chances that the Canucks thankfully flubbed on.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I would love to see Koski play 10 in a row, even if he has a bad game, throw him right back in there the next.

Talbot helps this team lose, hes done here. Time to see what we have with Koski.

Good to know that Todd McLellan has landed on his feet as an HFOil poster.