Knowing what you know now.....

[indigobuffalo]

The Kessel trade for me.

If Kessel and Seguin cancel each other out (i'd rather have seguin but whatever) then it's basically having Hamilton or getting Clarksons contract off the books.

I'd rather have Hamilton.

Till the day comes you can't re-sign Hamilton because of the cap room Clarkson eats up playing 4th line minutes...

 

[silentbob37*]

Except Grabovski isn't Clarkson... And I am worried about Nylander, but Shanahan has come in now and has started putting in place the necessary tools to improve the Leafs' player development record (which to date is pretty terrible).

There was a good chunk of risk placed in drafting Nylander, and it's far too early to say he's made it or busted, but I think if it weren't for Shanahan and his organizational changes, the Leafs wouldn't have the same hope to see him develop properly, and the same applies to Seguin.

What you're saying with your post is that player development under Burke, Nonis, and Shanahan are all the same. I strongly disagree. I mean, just the introduction of the Analytics Department alone will have major ramifications on player development in Toronto. They'll be implementing high-res movement tracking to gauge strengths and weaknesses in muscular strength, agility, dexterity, etc. on a scale unparalleled by "conventional" eye-test systems.

That will in-turn result in better training regimens for each player tailored to their specific needs and abilities.

And it's just one facet that Shanahan has the Leafs investing into that Burke/Nonis never thought to try, or opposed based on their ideological beliefs.

Except we were paying Grabovski more then we are paying Clarkson, and this Grabovski is on pace for 6 more points, clarkson for 5 more goals.........

The leafs devlopment record is actually pretty good, above average. And the development system as only improved signficantly because of the addition of the highly draft players. Guys like Percy and Brown and Finn only look better then who they had in the past because you have hope for them, we know who wa sa failure in the past.

My mind is slow to expand into the realm of finite fantastic fantasy.

It's all fact.

Rebuild over Kessel does not = Seguin and Hamilton.

Rebuild was never an option, the board did not approve = does not translate into Seguin and Hamilton.

If no trade for Kessel the concept that Burke would look to get someone else is the most plausible thing going.

If another trade were made with a 1st we would have a different set of players therefore our situation and end position would change.

Vs

Clarkson put us to the cap max and literally has not lived up to the contract. He is a negative value asset vs Phil who still had GREAT value. The domino effect after Clarkson Bolland etc has you right now in bad shape.

Vs.

When we had Kessel Orr Komarov Grabo etc and made it to Game 7 against Boston.

There just is no arguing with me and if you can't concede to that well good luck.

You don't say.....

Prove to us all right now Burke would have been ABLE to get someone else if Kessel didn't come here (remember, bewteen the draft and when the got him in August...? he didn't add anyone like that) AND that to get that player it would have cost them the Seguin pick.I'll wait while you prove it.

Once you prove that, prove that the teamw ould have been just as bad with Kessel.

Oh,a nd Burke had full control over the team, it wasn't the board. So Burke changing direction if he failed to get Kessel and the team sucked as bad as it sucked that year is very, very possible.

Your answer to Clarkson is grabovski who would be just as productive as Clarkson but making more money. How ist hat better?

 

[silentbob37*]

Till the day comes you can't re-sign Hamilton because of the cap room Clarkson eats up playing 4th line minutes...

I'd rather have that problem and deal with it then have Kessel and Clarkson.

 

[roosterman]

My mind is slow to expand into the realm of finite fantastic fantasy.

It's all fact.

Rebuild over Kessel does not = Seguin and Hamilton.

Rebuild was never an option, the board did not approve = does not translate into Seguin and Hamilton.

If no trade for Kessel the concept that Burke would look to get someone else is the most plausible thing going.

If another trade were made with a 1st we would have a different set of players therefore our situation and end position would change.

Vs

Clarkson put us to the cap max and literally has not lived up to the contract. He is a negative value asset vs Phil who still had GREAT value. The domino effect after Clarkson Bolland etc has you right now in bad shape.

Vs.

When we had Kessel Orr Komarov Grabo etc and made it to Game 7 against Boston.

There just is no arguing with me and if you can't concede to that well good luck.

According to Peddie a rebuild was never approved as nobody ever presented it to the board.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/prime-ti...on-prime-time/

start at 15:09.

Burkie could have sold it but didn't believe in it. That is, by far, his biggest mistake IMO.

Had Burkie wanted to do a rebuild there would have never been a "lets trade two firsts and a second for a stud (like kessel)". In a rebuilding scenario we likely would have drafted Seguin (or hall), and Hamilton (or better).

 

[thewave]

Except we were paying Grabovski more then we are paying Clarkson, and this Grabovski is on pace for 6 more points, clarkson for 5 more goals.........

The leafs devlopment record is actually pretty good, above average. And the development system as only improved signficantly because of the addition of the highly draft players. Guys like Percy and Brown and Finn only look better then who they had in the past because you have hope for them, we know who wa sa failure in the past.



You don't say.....

Prove to us all right now Burke would have been ABLE to get someone else if Kessel didn't come here (remember, bewteen the draft and when the got him in August...? he didn't add anyone like that) AND that to get that player it would have cost them the Seguin pick.I'll wait while you prove it.

Once you prove that, prove that the teamw ould have been just as bad with Kessel.

Oh,a nd Burke had full control over the team, it wasn't the board. So Burke changing direction if he failed to get Kessel and the team sucked as bad as it sucked that year is very, very possible.

Your answer to Clarkson is grabovski who would be just as productive as Clarkson but making more money. How ist hat better?

The only limb I have is that Burke would be seeking other players had he not got Kessel. How is this hard to understand? He is a GM with a mandate to retool so to appease your view of the situation you have superimposed the fantasy that a GM like Burke would not try to make his team better? That's rather laughable.

At least I am not going around saying had we not got Kessel we would have Seguin and Hamilton, as though Kessel had no effect on the teams position. What if it was because we had Kessel that we got the 2nd OA. What then? What if the other players did better without him as a group. What if we picked up a Boyd Devereaux who got hot and single handedly lead us to 5th pick. You can't not make this stuff up.

 

[thewave]

According to Peddie a rebuild was never approved as nobody ever presented it to the board.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/prime-ti...on-prime-time/

start at 15:09.

Burkie could have sold it but didn't believe in it. That is, by far, his biggest mistake IMO.

And that's fine I am ok with that. It remains a fact that rebuild was never the direction of this team under Burke.

 

[roosterman]

And that's fine I am ok with that. It remains a fact that rebuild was never the direction of this team under Burke.

Agreed. The board cannot approve something that was never presented / recommended.

 

[silentbob37*]

And that's fine I am ok with that. It remains a fact that rebuild was never the direction of this team under Burke.

And if he failed to get the player he wanted and the team sucked, its IMPOSSIBLE that he would have changed his mind?

The only limb I have is that Burke would be seeking other players had he not got Kessel. How is this hard to understand? He is a GM with a mandate to retool so to appease your view of the situation you have superimposed the fantasy that a GM like Burke would not try to make his team better? That's rather laughable.

At least I am not going around saying had we not got Kessel we would have Seguin and Hamilton, as though Kessel had no effect on the teams position. What if it was because we had Kessel that we got the 2nd OA. What then? What if the other players did better without him as a group. What if we picked up a Boyd Devereaux who got hot and single handedly lead us to 5th pick. You can't not make this stuff up.

ANd if he doens't find any? That would mean they land Seguin right? Basically for no Kessel trade to no = Seguin a Leaf a very specific thing has to happen. And as it was pointed out, he didn't have that mandate........Making things up again aren't you?

Without Kessel the teamw ould only have been worse. You can make a thousand whats if's up, but most likely....remove the best player the team gets worse.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

And if he failed to get the player he wanted and the team sucked, its IMPOSSIBLE that he would have changed his mind?



ANd if he doens't find any? That would mean they land Seguin right? Basically for no Kessel trade to no = Seguin a Leaf a very specific thing has to happen. And as it was pointed out, he didn't have that mandate........Making things up again aren't you?

Without Kessel the teamw ould only have been worse. You can make a thousand whats if's up, but most likely....remove the best player the team gets worse.

That all rests on the assumption he makes no other moves. Seemed pretty clear from the get go he was looking to make big moves. Kessel, Sedin, Sedin, etc. What if he moves for a goalie?

 

[thewave]

That all rests on the assumption he makes no other moves. Seemed pretty clear from the get go he was looking to make big moves. Kessel, Sedin, Sedin, etc. What if he moves for a goalie?

The Kessel move itself was not the damning move.

Armstrong Komisarek Connolly JSG Beauchemin(didn't work for Wilson) there's a lot more too. Trade for Versteeg etc.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I dont think there is a worst poster on HF boards. What a load of BS. Rehab.

Yeah..Leafs escaped that 22 year old Center who is leading the league in goal scoring and is third in points.

Troll.

You think that's bad? You should have seen his post where he accused people of hating on Phaneuf because they were jealous of his "rugged good looks".

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

If you're comparing Quinn's teams to these POS Burke/Nonis jokers...you are even less knowledgeable than I thought you were...and also at the end of their reign when they were long in the tooth...yeah..they should been traded except they exercised their right to their NTC in their contracts.

That WHOOSH was something going over your head.

 

[silentbob37*]

That all rests on the assumption he makes no other moves. Seemed pretty clear from the get go he was looking to make big moves. Kessel, Sedin, Sedin, etc. What if he moves for a goalie?

What if he decided to rebuild after he lost Kessel?

The Kessel move itself was not the damning move.

Armstrong Komisarek Connolly JSG Beauchemin(didn't work for Wilson) there's a lot more too. Trade for Versteeg etc.

The Kessel trade was the point of return, and the one price that REALLY hurt.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

My mind is slow to expand into the realm of finite fantastic fantasy.

It's all fact.

Rebuild over Kessel does not = Seguin and Hamilton.

Rebuild was never an option, the board did not approve = does not translate into Seguin and Hamilton.

If no trade for Kessel the concept that Burke would look to get someone else is the most plausible thing going.

If another trade were made with a 1st we would have a different set of players therefore our situation and end position would change.

Vs

Clarkson put us to the cap max and literally has not lived up to the contract. He is a negative value asset vs Phil who still had GREAT value. The domino effect after Clarkson Bolland etc has you right now in bad shape.

Vs.

When we had Kessel Orr Komarov Grabo etc and made it to Game 7 against Boston.

There just is no arguing with me and if you can't concede to that well good luck.

Oh yea because whether the board approved or not of a rebuild had a real meaningful impact on our standings that year.

We were garbage that year no matter what those windbags put their stamp of approval on.

 

[ACC1224]

While I don't agree he'd be in rehab, I think he'd have staggered in his development, and wouldn't be leading the league in scoring at this point. Whether he may have eventually gotten to where he is now in Toronto, I can't say, but I don't have faith in the Burke/Nonis/Wilson/Carlyle era to have been able to do what was needed to develop this kid properly.

I don't think Seguin could've gone the same route Kadri did and come out of it the same.

Rehab was a joke. Obviously he wouldn't be in Rehab, the kids no quitter.

 

[leafsfan5]

Till the day comes you can't re-sign Hamilton because of the cap room Clarkson eats up playing 4th line minutes...

I would rather have a problem signing my number 1 d-man than finding my number 1 d-man

 

[The Apologist]

And if he failed to get the player he wanted and the team sucked, its IMPOSSIBLE that he would have changed his mind?

I believe he had changed his mind, that's why Nonis is now our GM.

Without Kessel the teamw ould only have been worse. You can make a thousand whats if's up, but most likely....remove the best player the team gets worse.

And drafts Taylor Hall. Are we further ahead with Hall than we are Kess?

 

[The Apologist]

Except this isn't a given.

The recent history of the Toronto Maple Leafs certainly seems to indicate it's the most likely situation.

 

[Bomber0104]

That all rests on the assumption he makes no other moves. Seemed pretty clear from the get go he was looking to make big moves. Kessel, Sedin, Sedin, etc. What if he moves for a goalie?

Ok...

So operating under the assumption that Brian Burke is a complete and utter idiot, steadfastly thinking that the Leafs were one piece away from rounding into form, at the expense of multiple first round picks and more...

I guess there is no guarantee the Leafs would be destined to draft in the lottery for the next 5+ seasons.

You're not really making your boy Burke look good right here you know...

 

[Bomber0104]

And drafts Taylor Hall. Are we further ahead with Hall than we are Kess?

Taylor Hall is 4 years younger than Kessel.

That alone gives Edmonton a leg up on Toronto when comparing their best asset to ours.\

Ohhh and don't forget about the three other draft picks that Toronto gave up.

You wouldn't want to seem dishonest, now would you

?

 

[Bomber0104]

It's pretty telling how bad a trade is when it's being compared to one of the worst UFA signings in modern day NHL..

Yes...even worse than Burke's Komisarek, Armstrong, Connolly, and Liles deals.

 

[The Apologist]

Since were all playing the game, knowing what I know now, I would have tanked in the years leading up to the Crosby draft, and then found a way to get Kopitar too.
I would not have traded for what's his face goalie dude from San Jose and instead used our first rounder on PK subban, then tank again for Tavares.
In fact I'd probably go back even further and buy stock in Microsoft and disney and a couple other big names, buy the leafs, and somehow convince Kerry Fraser to give up refereeing while also convincing Marty Brodeur to never take up hockey.

Am I doing this right?

 

[Menzinger]

The ironic thing about many posts in this thread is that I strongly suspect that if we hadn't made the kessel trade , they'd still be trying to run Seguin out of town for being a soft, party-boy with character issues.

 

[hotpaws]

And drafts Taylor Hall. Are we further ahead with Hall than we are Kess?

you're actually defending the deal by pointing to our record with Kessel ?

4 and probably 5 straight 82 game seasons in the bottom 10 since the deal and you're saying we're still better off we traded the picks for him ?

 

[The Apologist]

The ironic thing about many posts in this thread is that I strongly suspect that if we hadn't made the kessel trade , they'd still be trying to run Seguin out of town for being a soft, party-boy with character issues.

Except we'd have Hall, a one dimensional talented winger. And maybe RNH too. We'd be the Oilers! Yes!!!