Player Discussion Kirill Kaprizov (Part 2)

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AKL

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Yet, all you guys are ready to ship him out the first chance you get. It's a contract negotiation. Between two complete assholes. Take a breath and let it play out.

I have taken many breaths through this process. At best we might get 5 years of a guy that doesn't really want to be here longer than 3, and 4 of the 5 years we're not going to be a very competitive team anyway. Maybe it's good for selling tickets, but it'll do virtually nothing for a Cup window 4+ years out. Trading him for pieces that will contribute to a Cup window 4+ years out is one potential logical solution.
 

16thOverallSaveUs

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The odds of Kaprizov actually having much involvement in this negotiation to this point are pretty slim
Whether he’s involved or not isn’t my point. He should have stepped in at this point to get this done. What more is he trying to get from us?
 
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2Pair

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Granted, we have limited information to go off of, but from what we think we know, it sounds like one side is being the notably bigger asshole.
All the information you're getting is coming from Guerin. Might have something to do with it appearing lopsided?


I have taken many breaths through this process. At best we might get 5 years of a guy that doesn't really want to be here longer than 3, and 4 of the 5 years we're not going to be a very competitive team anyway. Maybe it's good for selling tickets, but it'll do virtually nothing for a Cup window 4+ years out. Trading him for pieces that will contribute to a Cup window 4+ years out is one potential logical solution.

Where are you getting the idea that he doesn't want to play in Minnesota?

Whether he’s involved or not isn’t my point. He should have stepped in at this point to get this done. What more is he trying to get from us?
Why? Guerin destroyed the next 4 years of this team, why would missing training camp be any sort of concern?
 

BlackBusa24

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Dec 13, 2018
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All the information you're getting is coming from Guerin. Might have something to do with it appearing lopsided?




Where are you getting the idea that he doesn't want to play in Minnesota?

Why? Guerin destroyed the next 4 years of this team, why would missing training camp be any sort of concern?

Okay I don't even like BBB... But you guys need to stop blaming the buyouts solely on him... All he did was chose the flavor of his s*** sandwich.. those crappy contracts were in place for a long time and he had nothing to do with the structure of those. Everyone knew that neither of those players were going to live out the full length of the contracts... Even the wild management and ownership.

Like go ahead and go crazy and call the spurgeon contract garbage... Or not finding a reasonable center a complete mismanagement... I will be right there with you. But those contracts were set in motion a long long time ago so yell at Fletcher.
 

north21

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Why? Guerin destroyed the next 4 years of this team, why would missing training camp be any sort of concern?

What exactly was the alternative other than to have Parise and Suter on our cap over the next 5 seasons? This way we get some cap space for this season, 3 years of pain and then we are free. It just feels like these cap hits are being overblown, they weren't going to go away and the only real loss might have been Suter but from the sounds of things we needed to move on anyway.
 
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north21

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Yet, all you guys are ready to ship him out the first chance you get. It's a contract negotiation. Between two complete assholes. Take a breath and let it play out.

I do agree here, something will get done, its the stupid waiting around that sucks.
 
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2Pair

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What exactly was the alternative other than to have Parise and Suter on our cap over the next 5 seasons? This way we get some cap space for this season, 3 years of pain and then we are free. It just feels like these cap hits are being overblown, they weren't going to go away and the only real loss might have been Suter but from the sounds of things we needed to move on anyway.
Here's one scenario that took me about 10 minutes to put together
To Arizona - 1/4th of Parise and Suter's remaing contract/cap hit + MN 2022 2nd rounder, MN 2023 2nd Rounder, DAL 2022 2nd rounder, NYI 2022 2nd rounder, Leo Komarov.
To Dallas - Suter
To Islanders - Parise

Dallas would certainly give up a 2nd to get Suter at $1.8M per
Islanders actually clear cap this year
Arizona gets 4 2nd rounders for taking on $3.75M worth of cap each year for 4 years while only spending $5M total in actual dollars.

Minnesota saves $5M in cap next year, $7M in cap for 2023-24 and 2024-25 and then $1.6M for the following 4 years
 

Ban Hammered

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Here's one scenario that took me about 10 minutes to put together
To Arizona - 1/4th of Parise and Suter's remaing contract/cap hit + MN 2022 2nd rounder, MN 2023 2nd Rounder, DAL 2022 2nd rounder, NYI 2022 2nd rounder, Leo Komarov.
To Dallas - Suter
To Islanders - Parise

Dallas would certainly give up a 2nd to get Suter at $1.8M per
Islanders actually clear cap this year
Arizona gets 4 2nd rounders for taking on $3.75M worth of cap each year for 4 years while only spending $5M total in actual dollars.

Minnesota saves $5M in cap next year, $7M in cap for 2023-24 and 2024-25 and then $1.6M for the following 4 years

And recapture is still an issue...
That's why the buyouts were necessary...it killed the recapture.
 

Aurinko

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Theofanous has been just as big a dbag as Guerin, but I haven't noticed him talking shit about Guerin's offers?

Agent maxed out Panarin 12M & Bob 10M. It's easy to see why Kirill took him.

Just because the season starts doesn't mean that the contract negotiations end. You can ask the money you want as long as there are no better players available for that price.
 

BagHead

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Here's one scenario that took me about 10 minutes to put together
To Arizona - 1/4th of Parise and Suter's remaing contract/cap hit + MN 2022 2nd rounder, MN 2023 2nd Rounder, DAL 2022 2nd rounder, NYI 2022 2nd rounder, Leo Komarov.
To Dallas - Suter
To Islanders - Parise

Dallas would certainly give up a 2nd to get Suter at $1.8M per
Islanders actually clear cap this year
Arizona gets 4 2nd rounders for taking on $3.75M worth of cap each year for 4 years while only spending $5M total in actual dollars.

Minnesota saves $5M in cap next year, $7M in cap for 2023-24 and 2024-25 and then $1.6M for the following 4 years
Aside from cap recapture, which would actually put the Wild in an even worse position than it would have been if either player retired before their contracts were over, you have no movement clauses. Parise would waive, but Suter would not. He only started warming up to the idea of not being on the Wild once he wasn't on the Wild. He was very clearly not going to waive.

The real alternatives:
1) The Wild keep both players and have an internal budget well below their cap space, to compensate for potential recapture, putting them in the same situation they're in now.
2) The Wild trade Parise and keep Suter, while keeping the same budget from 1) because, if either player retires. they'll need that space.
3) The Wild do either 1) or 2) and spend to the cap. If either player retired in this scenario, the Wild would be forced to sell off assets quickly (and therefore cheaply), just to get under cap. They would almost certainly have to be expensive assets, and nobody would feel inclined to do the Wild a favor by taking Zuccarello instead of Fiala, Kaprizov, JEE, etc. The Wild in this scenario can't take salary back, so if they can't find anyone willing to do that, they would then have to start buying people out... and hey we're back to buyouts! This time, they'll be added to the cap recapture, and potentially last longer.

So, if Parise and Suter don't retire in the next 4 years, then yeah, not buying them out was better from a numbers standpoint (assuming we didn't have an internal budget during that time in order to be prepared for potential retirement). If either of them does retire in the next 4 years, the buyouts were the best option.

Personally, I think the smartest way to handle it is to be certain how much money you have to work with and go from there. If you can't even plan for that, you can't plan for the future of the roster at all.
 
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north21

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Here's one scenario that took me about 10 minutes to put together
To Arizona - 1/4th of Parise and Suter's remaing contract/cap hit + MN 2022 2nd rounder, MN 2023 2nd Rounder, DAL 2022 2nd rounder, NYI 2022 2nd rounder, Leo Komarov.
To Dallas - Suter
To Islanders - Parise

Dallas would certainly give up a 2nd to get Suter at $1.8M per
Islanders actually clear cap this year
Arizona gets 4 2nd rounders for taking on $3.75M worth of cap each year for 4 years while only spending $5M total in actual dollars.

Minnesota saves $5M in cap next year, $7M in cap for 2023-24 and 2024-25 and then $1.6M for the following 4 years

This is not real and was highly likely never to be an option, I am very sure we tried to make a trade work but both parise and suter had the option to kill any trades right? Plus we need to make it work with another team, which would have likely taken advantage of us and cost us more, hence the burn it down and buy them out. Which also had benefits for the expansion draft. Anyone can make up any trade scenario but pulling off a trade like that and what needed to be done can be worlds apart.
 

thestonedkoala

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Putting into perspective from Kaprizov's point of view; I think one of the big sticklers here is the terms. Minnesota doesn't want to back down from a 5 year contract, Kaprizov wants something shorter. We can debate the money issue at a later time, but looking at the terms - I can honestly see Kaprizov's point of view on this. Minnesota has done nothing this off-season to improve their team and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they took a massive step back. They don't have a great history in the playoffs either and they haven't made really any moves to improve the team at the deadline in the past few years. Why would a player want to stick around until their 30s to try and win a Cup?

Can anyone say with honesty that Minnesota is a top 4 team in the NHL? A top team in the NHL? This year? Next year? The next four years?

Losing wears on you. Being just good enough, but not great and losing the first round of the playoffs can really be a grind for players.
 

2Pair

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This is not real and was highly likely never to be an option, I am very sure we tried to make a trade work but both parise and suter had the option to kill any trades right? Plus we need to make it work with another team, which would have likely taken advantage of us and cost us more, hence the burn it down and buy them out. Which also had benefits for the expansion draft. Anyone can make up any trade scenario but pulling off a trade like that and what needed to be done can be worlds apart.
What part about that scenario isn't plausible?
 

2Pair

Registered User
Oct 8, 2017
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Aside from cap recapture, which would actually put the Wild in an even worse position than it would have been if either player retired before their contracts were over, you have no movement clauses. Parise would waive, but Suter would not. He only started warming up to the idea of not being on the Wild once he wasn't on the Wild. He was very clearly not going to waive.

The real alternatives:
1) The Wild keep both players and have an internal budget well below their cap space, to compensate for potential recapture, putting them in the same situation they're in now.
2) The Wild trade Parise and keep Suter, while keeping the same budget from 1) because, if either player retires. they'll need that space.
3) The Wild do either 1) or 2) and spend to the cap. If either player retired in this scenario, the Wild would be forced to sell off assets quickly (and therefore cheaply), just to get under cap. They would almost certainly have to be expensive assets, and nobody would feel inclined to do the Wild a favor by taking Zuccarello instead of Fiala, Kaprizov, JEE, etc. The Wild in this scenario can't take salary back, so if they can't find anyone willing to do that, they would then have to start buying people out... and hey we're back to buyouts! This time, they'll be added to the cap recapture, and potentially last longer.

So, if Parise and Suter don't retire in the next 4 years, then yeah, not buying them out was better from a numbers standpoint (assuming we didn't have an internal budget during that time in order to be prepared for potential retirement). If either of them does retire in the next 4 years, the buyouts were the best option.

Personally, I think the smartest way to handle it is to be certain how much money you have to work with and go from there. If you can't even plan for that, you can't plan for the future of the roster at all.
Why would they retire when they can go on LTIR and get paid millions to accomplish the same end result?
 

MNNumbers

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Putting into perspective from Kaprizov's point of view; I think one of the big sticklers here is the terms. Minnesota doesn't want to back down from a 5 year contract, Kaprizov wants something shorter. We can debate the money issue at a later time, but looking at the terms - I can honestly see Kaprizov's point of view on this. Minnesota has done nothing this off-season to improve their team and in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they took a massive step back. They don't have a great history in the playoffs either and they haven't made really any moves to improve the team at the deadline in the past few years. Why would a player want to stick around until their 30s to try and win a Cup?

Can anyone say with honesty that Minnesota is a top 4 team in the NHL? A top team in the NHL? This year? Next year? The next four years?

Losing wears on you. Being just good enough, but not great and losing the first round of the playoffs can really be a grind for players.

Kaprisov's agent's point of view is almost certainly maximizing career earnings. For that reason, he wants as short a contract as possible in order to arrive at UFA with as much earning time left in the life of his player. I'm not sure what the player thinks, but the agent is most certainly about money, and their gamble is that he will be worth more than 9M/yr in 3 years. That's why he wants a shorter contract.
 
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AKL

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Kaprisov's agent's point of view is almost certainly maximizing career earnings. For that reason, he wants as short a contract as possible in order to arrive at UFA with as much earning time left in the life of his player. I'm not sure what the player thinks, but the agent is most certainly about money, and their gamble is that he will be worth more than 9M/yr in 3 years. That's why he wants a shorter contract.

If he and his agent were trying to maximize career earnings, they would take the five year, 9M offer they have in front of them. At the end of it, Kaprizov will still only be 29 (same age Panarin was at the start of this season), and he will most likely be offered a seven year contract in UFA. That means a total of 12 years worth of high value UFA contracts. By looking for a three year contract now, and a seven year contract when it's over, he'll still be 34, well past the prime for getting paid as a UFA, unless he's still a spectacular player at that point.

So 5x9 and then 7x11 = 122
Or 3x7.5 and then 7x11 and then 2x6 = 111.5

Simple math says three years isn't about maximizing money, it's about not committing to being here longer than three years. And we all know what happens at the end of those three years.
 

thestonedkoala

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Kaprisov's agent's point of view is almost certainly maximizing career earnings. For that reason, he wants as short a contract as possible in order to arrive at UFA with as much earning time left in the life of his player. I'm not sure what the player thinks, but the agent is most certainly about money, and their gamble is that he will be worth more than 9M/yr in 3 years. That's why he wants a shorter contract.

Yes and no; his agent knows all about frustrating organizations that get no where. Bobrovsky and Panarin both spent a lot of time in an up and down organization. More so, marketing and the such.
 

Nsjohnson

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He can sign a f*cking 7 year contract and if he wants year 4 to get the hell out of dodge, and demand a trade, he can.

What I am saying is that he has no reason to not sign a 5 year contract.
 

nickschultzfan

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Wild could use cap space and a blue chip young forward. If Kap is not signed by end of camp, Guerin has the ability to trade him to a team who wants to win go for a Cup in the next 3 season (Leafs, Oilers, Rangers, Panthers, Islanders, Bruins, etc.).
 
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