Prospect Info: Kings Select LW Valentin Zykov 37th Overall
- Thread starter TonySCV
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Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
I remember Dean saying that they were trying to move down, but couldn't. In the end, he wanted Hickey because of his character/leadership qualities and because he was a smooth skating puck moving defenseman and he felt that he needed another young one with high upside to grow with Jack Johnson.
Remember, at this time Drew Doughty isn't even on our radar. We weren't really anticipating getting another shot at a player like that in that position. Lottery picks are fickle. You try to draft the best player available, but it is impossible to ignore need there as well, because whoever you select will likely play early and has a very good chance at being a franchise, long term player for your team.
If you have a weak defense, and the best player is a center, right next to him is a marquee defenseman, it is tempting to grab the defenseman just so you could have that player, for cheap, in that spot for 7 years+.
If you have the first overall pick, then BPA would be your best bet, but if you are sitting at 3-5 and there is some parody between the players, looking at need doesn't hurt too much. That was a pretty weak draft overall.
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Speaking of the terrible Hickey pick, I remember on draft day that Deano wouldn't drop the ball again. I was so happy and relieved when we got Doughty.
Reclamation Project
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Stupid Sexy Flanders
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Pick #2 and pick #32 that year, changed things. Although, pick #32 took 3+ years to add his impact.
Indeed DL picked Hickey due to his perceived need over BPA. Hickeys main attraction was his character and leadership, and the fact he was a D. Kings were aware there were better players on the board but were unable to trade down (see Lombardi interview after the pick). Also, as others mentioned, this was pre-Doughty
tigermask48
Maniacal Laugh
What makes it even worse is that all the rumors I heard at the time were that DL wanted to trade back to the later half of the first round but calling around discovered that Boston and Colorado had Hickey high and he'd be gone if they traded back... Boston takes Hammill (meh) and Colorado settles for Shattenkirk.... DOH!
Letting Slava develop did a hell of a lot of good for him. I really am becoming a big fan of Mark Morris and all he does for the guys that pass through Manchester. Seriously just look at what he's done with some of our prospects. Really great stuff.
Reclamation Project
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Slava Voynov, Alec Martinez, Jonathan Bernier, Jonathan Quick, Peter Harrold, Trevor Lewis, Davis Drewiske, Kevin Westgarth, Jake Muzzin, Matt Moulson, Tim Jackman, Brian Boyle, and Teddy Purcell. Among others.
Pucknut50
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I remember watching Hickey at world juniors after the Kings picked him. All I needed to see was one game and I said what? This is the guy we drafted? He was horrible so was Tuebert.
Hickey did develop his game and is just o.k. now.
Face Wash
Registered User
Again, the Kings won this entire DRAFT and it's no contest. And they won it on February 23, 2012 when the 1st round pick Lombardi has a clear track record of not getting the most value with was traded for what became the franchise's first Stanley Cup in 45 years only 110 days later.
Not too many GMs can say in all honesty that a traded draft pick (with Johnson of course, but I'm pretty sure a case can be made Columbus valued the pick as much as JJ and his career (-90)/$4.4M cap hit at THAT particular point in time) lead directly to turning a team's fortunes completely around the way this traded draft pick did.
Hands down, The Kings won this draft almost 500 days before it happened and they didn't even pick until the 2nd round when Dean DOES have a track record of getting incredible value and seems to have done it once again (Time will tell).
Kings won this draft and there's little or no argument against. everything anyone does in this league is geared toward winning the Cup...PERIOD!
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etherialone
dialed in your mom
If they aren't they are right there. Lots of kids returning and a couple of monster kids added for next season. They could do very well or at least I think so.
Face Wash
Registered User
Let's just look at Deano's ineptness at drafting in the first round...First let's all agree that Jonathan Bernier was an Al Murray selection and not really a Dean Lombardi pick considering Dean didn't have "his" people (Futa, Yannetti & the scouts) in place just yet having been hired 65 days before the 2006 entry draft.
Let's also agree that in 2008, a not-so-trained monkey or even someone as habitually inebriated as The Dingo, would have selected Doughty 2nd. That pick was about as obvious as Angelyne's plastic surgeries (Jeez, I'm turning into bigmouthbarry with my analogies...kill me...but anyway).
So in 2007 he takes Hickey. We all knew that was going to be a bad pick when he made it, but to illustrate how bad, 17 Defensemen from that draft alone have played more NHL games than the 4th overall pick in the draft including last season's Norris Trophy winner and (count 'em) 2 DMen currently on the Kings NHL roster and 1 DMan who's a Kings RFA (Ellerby/FLA, Muzzin/PIT & Martinez). And before you start talking about how injuries hurt Hickey, keep in mind eight of those 17 DMen were selected in the 3rd round or lower including Carl Gunnarson who was taken in the 7th round and ranks 2nd among DMen taken in that draft in Games Played with 224. Heck, the guy taken RIGHT AFTER Hickey has played the most games of any DMan taken in this draft (Alzner - 263).
In the '09 draft Lombardi takes Brayden Schenn. Now this was the obvious pick and when you consider what this ultimately lead to (a trade for Richards and a surly look on Brian Burke's face) the pick can't be considered a Hickey level bust. However, so far, as a player Schenn has not lived up to the Canadian-level hype. He was drafted 5th, but he's 10th in games played of players drafted in this draft (not awful) and 6th in points per game of players with a minimum of 60 NHL games played from this draft (.42 PPG). This isn't bad per se, but fact two players ahead of him in PPG from this draft were drafted in the 4th & 5th rounds (M. Foligno by Buffalo [.51] & G. Bourque by Nashville [.45]). Schenn's defensive play leaves a lot to be desired of course. So while not a total bust, Schenn hasn't lived up to the offensive hype, playing on an offensive-minded team. Imagine how he might have struggled on a team like the Kings that would have asked him to backcheck. He's not a good defensive player, which is why he didn't play more than those 8 games out of the Juniors for the Kings.
Of course in 2008 as great as the Doughty pick was, Lombardi screwed up again. He trades up, then back one and all he had to show for it was Colten Teubert (who couldn't even make it in EDM) and Andrew Campbell who may never crack the Kings roster. Imagine how much better that draft could have been if he takes Tyler Myers instead of Teubert and Campbell. Doughty, Myers & Voynov...wow!
After those picks, the jury is still out. Forbort could be a strong defender. He's big enough, so at least Dean drafted for the team's identity. But already one DMan picked after him has played over 100 games in the NHL (Justin Faulk/CAR) and 16 players have already gotten their feet wet in the NHL overall from this draft (including Toffoli) and Forbort is certainly not expected to get his feet wet even this coming season. Time will tell...we all hope Forbort will be a strong SAH DMan. Dmen do take longer to develop on average, but I'd say if he can't crack the '14-'15 squad, then it will be time to question the value of that 1st rounder as well.
The '11 draft is a complete waste of time and energy for the Amateur scouts. Of course eventually the trade of the 1st round pick helped us win a Stanley Cup (Penner) but here's the one 2nd round pick Lombardi whiffed on (Gibson). But he's had enough 2nd round triumphs to sluff this one off and I'm really focussing on 1st round ineptitude anyway.
The Pearson pick looks promising. But even then, it was the last pick of the first round, which leads one to think, the closer to the second round Dean picks, the better the pick will be.
As far as I'm concerned, Dean should trade for 1st round picks, so he can trade them for more 2nd round picks. Or keep trading 1st rounders for pieces he needs on the big club. If Dean never picks in the 1st round again, I'll be cool with it.
Let's also agree that in 2008, a not-so-trained monkey or even someone as habitually inebriated as The Dingo, would have selected Doughty 2nd. That pick was about as obvious as Angelyne's plastic surgeries (Jeez, I'm turning into bigmouthbarry with my analogies...kill me...but anyway).
So in 2007 he takes Hickey. We all knew that was going to be a bad pick when he made it, but to illustrate how bad, 17 Defensemen from that draft alone have played more NHL games than the 4th overall pick in the draft including last season's Norris Trophy winner and (count 'em) 2 DMen currently on the Kings NHL roster and 1 DMan who's a Kings RFA (Ellerby/FLA, Muzzin/PIT & Martinez). And before you start talking about how injuries hurt Hickey, keep in mind eight of those 17 DMen were selected in the 3rd round or lower including Carl Gunnarson who was taken in the 7th round and ranks 2nd among DMen taken in that draft in Games Played with 224. Heck, the guy taken RIGHT AFTER Hickey has played the most games of any DMan taken in this draft (Alzner - 263).
In the '09 draft Lombardi takes Brayden Schenn. Now this was the obvious pick and when you consider what this ultimately lead to (a trade for Richards and a surly look on Brian Burke's face) the pick can't be considered a Hickey level bust. However, so far, as a player Schenn has not lived up to the Canadian-level hype. He was drafted 5th, but he's 10th in games played of players drafted in this draft (not awful) and 6th in points per game of players with a minimum of 60 NHL games played from this draft (.42 PPG). This isn't bad per se, but fact two players ahead of him in PPG from this draft were drafted in the 4th & 5th rounds (M. Foligno by Buffalo [.51] & G. Bourque by Nashville [.45]). Schenn's defensive play leaves a lot to be desired of course. So while not a total bust, Schenn hasn't lived up to the offensive hype, playing on an offensive-minded team. Imagine how he might have struggled on a team like the Kings that would have asked him to backcheck. He's not a good defensive player, which is why he didn't play more than those 8 games out of the Juniors for the Kings.
Of course in 2008 as great as the Doughty pick was, Lombardi screwed up again. He trades up, then back one and all he had to show for it was Colten Teubert (who couldn't even make it in EDM) and Andrew Campbell who may never crack the Kings roster. Imagine how much better that draft could have been if he takes Tyler Myers instead of Teubert and Campbell. Doughty, Myers & Voynov...wow!
After those picks, the jury is still out. Forbort could be a strong defender. He's big enough, so at least Dean drafted for the team's identity. But already one DMan picked after him has played over 100 games in the NHL (Justin Faulk/CAR) and 16 players have already gotten their feet wet in the NHL overall from this draft (including Toffoli) and Forbort is certainly not expected to get his feet wet even this coming season. Time will tell...we all hope Forbort will be a strong SAH DMan. Dmen do take longer to develop on average, but I'd say if he can't crack the '14-'15 squad, then it will be time to question the value of that 1st rounder as well.
The '11 draft is a complete waste of time and energy for the Amateur scouts. Of course eventually the trade of the 1st round pick helped us win a Stanley Cup (Penner) but here's the one 2nd round pick Lombardi whiffed on (Gibson). But he's had enough 2nd round triumphs to sluff this one off and I'm really focussing on 1st round ineptitude anyway.
The Pearson pick looks promising. But even then, it was the last pick of the first round, which leads one to think, the closer to the second round Dean picks, the better the pick will be.
As far as I'm concerned, Dean should trade for 1st round picks, so he can trade them for more 2nd round picks. Or keep trading 1st rounders for pieces he needs on the big club. If Dean never picks in the 1st round again, I'll be cool with it.
Let's just look at Deano's ineptness at drafting in the first round...First let's all agree that Jonathan Bernier was an Al Murray selection and not really a Dean Lombardi pick considering Dean didn't have "his" people (Futa, Yannetti & the scouts) in place just yet having been hired 65 days before the 2006 entry draft.
Let's also agree that in 2008, a not-so-trained monkey or even someone as habitually inebriated as The Dingo, would have selected Doughty 2nd. That pick was about as obvious as Angelyne's plastic surgeries (Jeez, I'm turning into bigmouthbarry with my analogies...kill me...but anyway).
So in 2007 he takes Hickey. We all knew that was going to be a bad pick when he made it, but to illustrate how bad, 17 Defensemen from that draft alone have played more NHL games than the 4th overall pick in the draft including last season's Norris Trophy winner and (count 'em) 2 DMen currently on the Kings NHL roster and 1 DMan who's a Kings RFA (Ellerby/FLA, Muzzin/PIT & Martinez). And before you start talking about how injuries hurt Hickey, keep in mind eight of those 17 DMen were selected in the 3rd round or lower including Carl Gunnarson who was taken in the 7th round and ranks 2nd among DMen taken in that draft in Games Played with 224. Heck, the guy taken RIGHT AFTER Hickey has played the most games of any DMan taken in this draft (Alzner - 263).
In the '09 draft Lombardi takes Brayden Schenn. Now this was the obvious pick and when you consider what this ultimately lead to (a trade for Richards and a surly look on Brian Burke's face) the pick can't be considered a Hickey level bust. However, so far, as a player Schenn has not lived up to the Canadian-level hype. He was drafted 5th, but he's 10th in games played of players drafted in this draft (not awful) and 6th in points per game of players with a minimum of 60 NHL games played from this draft (.42 PPG). This isn't bad per se, but fact two players ahead of him in PPG from this draft were drafted in the 4th & 5th rounds (M. Foligno by Buffalo [.51] & G. Bourque by Nashville [.45]). Schenn's defensive play leaves a lot to be desired of course. So while not a total bust, Schenn hasn't lived up to the offensive hype, playing on an offensive-minded team. Imagine how he might have struggled on a team like the Kings that would have asked him to backcheck. He's not a good defensive player, which is why he didn't play more than those 8 games out of the Juniors for the Kings.
Of course in 2008 as great as the Doughty pick was, Lombardi screwed up again. He trades up, then back one and all he had to show for it was Colten Teubert (who couldn't even make it in EDM) and Andrew Campbell who may never crack the Kings roster. Imagine how much better that draft could have been if he takes Tyler Myers instead of Teubert and Campbell. Doughty, Myers & Voynov...wow!
After those picks, the jury is still out. Forbort could be a strong defender. He's big enough, so at least Dean drafted for the team's identity. But already one DMan picked after him has played over 100 games in the NHL (Justin Faulk/CAR) and 16 players have already gotten their feet wet in the NHL overall from this draft (including Toffoli) and Forbort is certainly not expected to get his feet wet even this coming season. Time will tell...we all hope Forbort will be a strong SAH DMan. Dmen do take longer to develop on average, but I'd say if he can't crack the '14-'15 squad, then it will be time to question the value of that 1st rounder as well.
The '11 draft is a complete waste of time and energy for the Amateur scouts. Of course eventually the trade of the 1st round pick helped us win a Stanley Cup (Penner) but here's the one 2nd round pick Lombardi whiffed on (Gibson). But he's had enough 2nd round triumphs to sluff this one off and I'm really focussing on 1st round ineptitude anyway.
The Pearson pick looks promising. But even then, it was the last pick of the first round, which leads one to think, the closer to the second round Dean picks, the better the pick will be.
As far as I'm concerned, Dean should trade for 1st round picks, so he can trade them for more 2nd round picks. Or keep trading 1st rounders for pieces he needs on the big club. If Dean never picks in the 1st round again, I'll be cool with it.
Well played face wash , well played
Omni Owl
No fun, only 1-3-1
- Mar 9, 2008
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Let's just look at Deano's ineptness at drafting in the first round...First let's all agree that Jonathan Bernier was an Al Murray selection and not really a Dean Lombardi pick considering Dean didn't have "his" people (Futa, Yannetti & the scouts) in place just yet having been hired 65 days before the 2006 entry draft.
Let's also agree that in 2008, a not-so-trained monkey or even someone as habitually inebriated as The Dingo, would have selected Doughty 2nd. That pick was about as obvious as Angelyne's plastic surgeries (Jeez, I'm turning into bigmouthbarry with my analogies...kill me...but anyway).
So in 2007 he takes Hickey. We all knew that was going to be a bad pick when he made it, but to illustrate how bad, 17 Defensemen from that draft alone have played more NHL games than the 4th overall pick in the draft including last season's Norris Trophy winner and (count 'em) 2 DMen currently on the Kings NHL roster and 1 DMan who's a Kings RFA (Ellerby/FLA, Muzzin/PIT & Martinez). And before you start talking about how injuries hurt Hickey, keep in mind eight of those 17 DMen were selected in the 3rd round or lower including Carl Gunnarson who was taken in the 7th round and ranks 2nd among DMen taken in that draft in Games Played with 224. Heck, the guy taken RIGHT AFTER Hickey has played the most games of any DMan taken in this draft (Alzner - 263).
In the '09 draft Lombardi takes Brayden Schenn. Now this was the obvious pick and when you consider what this ultimately lead to (a trade for Richards and a surly look on Brian Burke's face) the pick can't be considered a Hickey level bust. However, so far, as a player Schenn has not lived up to the Canadian-level hype. He was drafted 5th, but he's 10th in games played of players drafted in this draft (not awful) and 6th in points per game of players with a minimum of 60 NHL games played from this draft (.42 PPG). This isn't bad per se, but fact two players ahead of him in PPG from this draft were drafted in the 4th & 5th rounds (M. Foligno by Buffalo [.51] & G. Bourque by Nashville [.45]). Schenn's defensive play leaves a lot to be desired of course. So while not a total bust, Schenn hasn't lived up to the offensive hype, playing on an offensive-minded team. Imagine how he might have struggled on a team like the Kings that would have asked him to backcheck. He's not a good defensive player, which is why he didn't play more than those 8 games out of the Juniors for the Kings.
Of course in 2008 as great as the Doughty pick was, Lombardi screwed up again. He trades up, then back one and all he had to show for it was Colten Teubert (who couldn't even make it in EDM) and Andrew Campbell who may never crack the Kings roster. Imagine how much better that draft could have been if he takes Tyler Myers instead of Teubert and Campbell. Doughty, Myers & Voynov...wow!
After those picks, the jury is still out. Forbort could be a strong defender. He's big enough, so at least Dean drafted for the team's identity. But already one DMan picked after him has played over 100 games in the NHL (Justin Faulk/CAR) and 16 players have already gotten their feet wet in the NHL overall from this draft (including Toffoli) and Forbort is certainly not expected to get his feet wet even this coming season. Time will tell...we all hope Forbort will be a strong SAH DMan. Dmen do take longer to develop on average, but I'd say if he can't crack the '14-'15 squad, then it will be time to question the value of that 1st rounder as well.
The '11 draft is a complete waste of time and energy for the Amateur scouts. Of course eventually the trade of the 1st round pick helped us win a Stanley Cup (Penner) but here's the one 2nd round pick Lombardi whiffed on (Gibson). But he's had enough 2nd round triumphs to sluff this one off and I'm really focussing on 1st round ineptitude anyway.
The Pearson pick looks promising. But even then, it was the last pick of the first round, which leads one to think, the closer to the second round Dean picks, the better the pick will be.
As far as I'm concerned, Dean should trade for 1st round picks, so he can trade them for more 2nd round picks. Or keep trading 1st rounders for pieces he needs on the big club. If Dean never picks in the 1st round again, I'll be cool with it.
Nice analysis. Its easy to look back and see what could've/should've been. Lombardi's money in the 2nd round, but after seeing some of the players we skipped over, it can be pretty disappointing. Hindsight and all that ********. DL is still a major step up from the Dave Taylor era, talk about no direction there. At least we got our cup. I'm just hoping we can keep up the winning. We definitely have the foundation to do so for quite awhile.
King'sPawn
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So using your rationale, the Kings won the 2013 draft over the 2013 Stanley Cup Champion Blackhawks, who kept their key picks (including their first and second picks, where they have some home runs as well?
Would that mean they would have won the 2012 draft had Columbus taken the first then?
Or did they win the 2009(?) draft when they traded a 2nd round pick with O'Sullivan for Williams?
At what point do other teams win a draft when they win the cup?
I'll take issue with these two points for a couple of different reasons. In hindsight, Doughty was the obvious choice. He was a winner at the WJCs, had super skills flowing out of him in waves, and is a Kings fan. He was also out of shape and scouts wondered if he'd ever get his head into the pro game. Zach Bogosian was touted as maybe a tad less talented, but spades above Doughty as a pro and off-ice trainer. Since 2008 two things have happened: Doughty has come around off the ice (although he is by no means considered one of the super trainers of the league) and Bogosian has been racked by injuries to the point we have forgotten him. Nothing like broken bones to remove a player from development. With prospects, there is always a degree of luck involved in their development. They can do everything right, get injured, and never be able to reach their potential (see Aulin, Jared).
I think that's what happened to Schenn. He's reckless when he wants to win, which is always, and that has led to horrific injuries at key times. (Noticeably, Hickey had the same issue with playing injured as a teenager and that may have set him back too.) Do I think we got rid of Schenn at the right time? Yes. Do I think Schenn would have been on the team in 2012 at the start of the season, no. I think he would have been in Manchester because you don't crack the LA lineup any more without the OK from the entire brass, and that means they know you inside and out as a pro from your time in the AHL. Don't like it? Too bad, it works. Schenn probably would have adapted fast and been up in the NHL quicker than most, but he would have had to pay his dues. The Flyers right now are an organizational mess because of their impatience. Schenn's suffering from the "sink or swim" mentality instead of the "you earn your way up and when you get there, it's just the next stage" approach the Kings take. The drafting may be somewhat better under DL (especially in the second round, that has been well established), but I think part of the reason the second rounders and later succeed with us is that they don't have the first rounder "I'm a first round pick" mentality and they know they'll be working for 2 years for a contract and then at least 1 more before they have a shot at the NHL. The upside? They get to play for a winner. For the kinds of kids the Kings draft, that's well worth the 3 year minimum wait.
