kindl 27 points, + 49 over a 82 game season

[GoAwayDanCleary]

I dont think Quincey has been noticeably better or anything but this Kindl circle jerk is a little bit premature. He barely gets minutes because hes been a turn over machine and gets hemmed into his zone to often because of it. Quincey is relied on way more to be a defensive guy now. Kindl's getting his tires pumped right now because hes a 1st round pick that is finally looking like an NHLer and Quinceys getting **** on because he had a poor adjustment to the wings but has been steady for a while now.

You could post Brendan Smith's stat line and Kindl would seem much better but theres no way watching them that Kindl has outperformed him

This isn't some Kindl "circle jerk". The kid looked like he was done - a bust - but he played his way out of the legendary Babcock doghouse and has been one of our better defenders, if not the best, recently. You should be able to at least appreciate what the kids been able to do.

Quincey isn't getting "**** on" at all. We've all acknowledged that has been very good in his shutdown role, its the contract that makes him hard to appreciate.

 

[opivy]

And the 1st round pick that we lost to get him.

 

[Bench]

And the 1st round pick that we lost to get him.

We lost a 1st round pick getting Kindl too.

 

[opivy]

I laughed earlier when someone referenced being in a great spot picking earlier like when we got Kindl.

 

[we like our team*]

picking outside the top 5 is pretty much a wash

 

[Bench]

picking outside the top 5 is pretty much a wash

I could list all the guys from 5-20 that are doing awesome now, but it's certainly not a wash. In general, most picks after 15 tend to level out, but there are always star players lurking form pick 5 to 20.

You know what, I will list one. Erik Karlsson.

 

[we like our team*]

wash probably wasn't a good word choice. i was referring to this

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1298875

 

[Bench]

wash probably wasn't a good word choice. i was referring to this

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1298875

Ah. But even at 34.8%, the claimed conversion rate outside of the top 5, that means on average you get a quality NHL player every 3 years. That's more than enough to keep stocking your team and stay competitive. And that assumes none of your other picks pan out.

 

[newfy]

This isn't some Kindl "circle jerk". The kid looked like he was done - a bust - but he played his way out of the legendary Babcock doghouse and has been one of our better defenders, if not the best, recently. You should be able to at least appreciate what the kids been able to do.

Quincey isn't getting "**** on" at all. We've all acknowledged that has been very good in his shutdown role, its the contract that makes him hard to appreciate.

I can appreciate him looking like a decent NHL dman and all but saying hes been the best lately is what I have an issue with. Hes been 7th in TOI on the year and even though he scored a goal last game he still had a few give aways and defensive gaffs where the wings got bottled up in their zone. As hard headed as Babcock can be, if a guy is playing like the teams best dman he would get the ice time.

A lot of you guys cant see past the fact that hes sheltered out there because he has too many turnovers to play big minutes against top line players. Not a big deal hes a late first and hes finally coming around but he hasnt been amazing out there and even though he has a lot of "hits" he doesnt seem to be punishing anyone at all out there given his frame. Hes still got a ways to go but hes at least looking like a legit NHLer now

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I can appreciate him looking like a decent NHL dman and all but saying hes been the best lately is what I have an issue with. Hes been 7th in TOI on the year and even though he scored a goal last game he still had a few give aways and defensive gaffs where the wings got bottled up in their zone. As hard headed as Babcock can be, if a guy is playing like the teams best dman he would get the ice time.

A lot of you guys cant see past the fact that hes sheltered out there because he has too many turnovers to play big minutes against top line players. Not a big deal hes a late first and hes finally coming around but he hasnt been amazing out there and even though he has a lot of "hits" he doesnt seem to be punishing anyone at all out there given his frame. Hes still got a ways to go but hes at least looking like a legit NHLer now

No offense, but you're being ridiculous.

Not that Jared Boll is a superstar, but when he goes in smashes Boll into the boards and takes the puck from him, that's "punishing."

I've got no problem with criticizing Kindl for his giveaways, which, IMO, are getting better with confidence.

But Kindl's physical play far exceeds any expectation I had for him. And if you don't see it, you're just a hater like Fabricoh for whatever reason.

 

[newfy]

No offense, but you're being ridiculous.

Not that Jared Boll is a superstar, but when he goes in smashes Boll into the boards and takes the puck from him, that's "punishing."

I've got no problem with criticizing Kindl for his giveaways, which, IMO, are getting better with confidence.

But Kindl's physical play far exceeds any expectation I had for him. And if you don't see it, you're just a hater like Fabricoh for whatever reason.

No I'm not a hater, calling a spade a spade isnt being a hater. Hes been solid in his role which is very limited. His play hasnt been bad and hasnt been amazing but some people in here are trying to make him out to be the best guy on the defense which isnt true.

I dont even remember the play youre talking about on Boll so it must not have been that memorable. Hes got an alright physical game where he does really get manhandled and can handle himself in the corners but its nothing special. The difference between me and you is I watch these guys play coming up and in the OHL he looked like the next friggen Pronger. Thats part of the reason hes so frustrating because he has the potential to be that but doesnt bring it all that often.

Hes 26 now, we shouldnt just be making threads about him possibly starting to become a legit NHLer, you guys arent getting all excited over some young kid like Lashoff, its about a 26 year old first rounder who is starting to shape up into an every day NHLer finally

 

[RedWingsNow*]

No I'm not a hater, calling a spade a spade isnt being a hater.

You needn't lecture me on this

Hes been solid in his role which is very limited. His play hasnt been bad and hasnt been amazing but some people in here are trying to make him out to be the best guy on the defense which isnt true.

With a prospect, it's more about the tools than the execution. And Kindl is putting a lot of his tools on display.

I don't see anyone calling him our best.
But let's be real. After Kronwall and Ericsson, it doesn't take much to be our third best.
Hell, it doesn't take much to be our second best.

I dont even remember the play youre talking about on Boll so it must not have been that memorable.

Well, you don't remember it. I do.
I also remember against Chicago, when he lined up Stahlberg on the boards. Good check, because he got in front of him, and was able to steal the puck, pass it to Miller and end a long shift of running around his own end.

So his physical plays aren't just hits to make coach happy. They're winning puck battles.

If you don't notice these things, you either don't want to see them, or you're simply not watching Kindl very closely.

Six games ago was the SJ game.
He has 2G and is +2 in that time. his lowest TOI is 16:37. He's been at 19:54 or higher three times. He has 18 shots on goal.
He also has 11 hits (though six were against Chicago)

Hes got an alright physical game where he does really get manhandled and can handle himself in the corners but its nothing special. The difference between me and you is I watch these guys play coming up and in the OHL he looked like the next friggen Pronger.

My goodness. He never looked like Pronger. AT ALL. Nobody ever projected that kind of game on him.
Newfy, you're confused. Kindl was always in the mold of a Lidstrom (not as skilled, but a little more physical).

Thats part of the reason hes so frustrating because he has the potential to be that but doesnt bring it all that often.

He's never had that potential. At best, he was a solid top pairing guy. Nobody ever projected superstar status for this guy.

He was always going to have issues. He

Hes 26 now, we shouldnt just be making threads about him possibly starting to become a legit NHLer, you guys arent getting all excited over some young kid like Lashoff, its about a 26 year old first rounder who is starting to shape up into an every day NHLer finally

Should we get excited about Smith because he's 24?
WTF newfy.

It's not Kindl's fault they bury their prospects.
Kindl should have been brought up in 2009-10 after his second full season in GR. He had 6 goals and 33 points.

If you look at Kindl, he has had a rough adjustment at every level.
He came to kitchener and sucked his first year (which is why he slipped to 19th). He came to Grand Rapids and sucked his first year.

He was nothing special in Detroit his first two 1/2 seasons.

But you've at least got to give him a shot.

And the reason nobody gets excited about Lashoff is because he's nothing to get excited about.

He looks like a potential Justin Abdelkader of defense -- at best.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

No I'm not a hater, calling a spade a spade isnt being a hater. Hes been solid in his role which is very limited. His play hasnt been bad and hasnt been amazing but some people in here are trying to make him out to be the best guy on the defense which isnt true.

I dont even remember the play youre talking about on Boll so it must not have been that memorable. Hes got an alright physical game where he does really get manhandled and can handle himself in the corners but its nothing special. The difference between me and you is I watch these guys play coming up and in the OHL he looked like the next friggen Pronger. Thats part of the reason hes so frustrating because he has the potential to be that but doesnt bring it all that often.

Hes 26 now, we shouldnt just be making threads about him possibly starting to become a legit NHLer, you guys arent getting all excited over some young kid like Lashoff, its about a 26 year old first rounder who is starting to shape up into an every day NHLer finally

Welcome to Ken Holland's overripe world. In a year, when Smith is 25, we will still be wondering if he will be able to become a top 4 guy

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Welcome to Ken Holland's overripe world. In a year, when Smith is 25, we will still be wondering if he will be able to become a top 4 guy

Nyquist will be 24 when next year starts.


When Zetterberg was 24, he had 39 goals and 85 points and was in his third full season (even with a lockout in between)

 

[Winger98]

I have a feeling that if Nyquist had made the Swedish olympic team as a 21 yr old, he'd have been in Detroit a little sooner, too.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Like I said a couple of weeks ago. People seriously need to eat crow regarding Kindl.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I have a feeling that if Nyquist had made the Swedish olympic team as a 21 yr old, he'd have been in Detroit a little sooner, too.

Which is why I have hope Jarnkrok is going to be on an accelerated track to be honest. He should be a two time World Championship player, he might start in Grand Rapids but I hope they really do give him an honest chance at making the team.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I have a feeling that if Nyquist had made the Swedish olympic team as a 21 yr old, he'd have been in Detroit a little sooner, too.

Yeah, sure. But you get the point. If Nyquist is really a prospect that isn't ready until he's 24 ---

This is a team that has a prospect (Tatar) make the Slovakian WC team. And out of camp, a 26 year old from Switzerland makes it over a second round pick who has been in Grand Rapids for four years and who looked just as good at the WCs.

 

[newfy]

You needn't lecture me on this

With a prospect, it's more about the tools than the execution. And Kindl is putting a lot of his tools on display.

I don't see anyone calling him our best.
But let's be real. After Kronwall and Ericsson, it doesn't take much to be our third best.
Hell, it doesn't take much to be our second best.

Well, you don't remember it. I do.
I also remember against Chicago, when he lined up Stahlberg on the boards. Good check, because he got in front of him, and was able to steal the puck, pass it to Miller and end a long shift of running around his own end.

So his physical plays aren't just hits to make coach happy. They're winning puck battles.

If you don't notice these things, you either don't want to see them, or you're simply not watching Kindl very closely.

Six games ago was the SJ game.
He has 2G and is +2 in that time. his lowest TOI is 16:37. He's been at 19:54 or higher three times. He has 18 shots on goal.
He also has 11 hits (though six were against Chicago)

My goodness. He never looked like Pronger. AT ALL. Nobody ever projected that kind of game on him.
Newfy, you're confused. Kindl was always in the mold of a Lidstrom (not as skilled, but a little more physical).

He's never had that potential. At best, he was a solid top pairing guy. Nobody ever projected superstar status for this guy.

If you look at Kindl, he has had a rough adjustment at every level.
He came to kitchener and sucked his first year (which is why he slipped to 19th). He came to Grand Rapids and sucked his first year.

He was nothing special in Detroit his first two 1/2 seasons.

But you've at least got to give him a shot.

And the reason nobody gets excited about Lashoff is because he's nothing to get excited about.

One of the posts I replied to I bolded where he was called possibly the best dman on the team. If you dont think that than I dont take issue with you thinking hes been solid but those are 2 very different things.

And youre talking about these little subtle physical plays that every dman makes where they rub a guy off the puck. I can point to plenty of those by other guys on the team as well. I was more talking about the physical game that scares opponents. His time in the OHL he was considered a pretty nasty player with a decent mean streak to go with his skill, I watched it live I know. Theres also scouting reports that say as much. He seems to have dropped that and refuses to really use his frame to get nasty, which is different from running guys off the puck. I didnt mean Pronger as in a shut down defensive minded dman, just that he was mean and actually considered dirty at one point in time.

All of the positives you talk about can be said about Lashoff as well but you decide to hate him as well. Like Kindl I would say hes been solid when hes been put in a limited role. The stats youre pointing out for Kindl like hits actually favour Lashoff. Lashoff barely ever gives the puck away and he blocks a lot of shots. Hes also 22 and undrafted.

I guess I just dont understand how you can be so down on a guy whose 22 and went undrafted who has been hitting and blocking shots and has shown he could be a decent stay at home guy in the future and then so high on a 26 year old former first round pick who is now just finally starting to look like a half decent NHLer.

I think you guys should be happy hes turning into what looks like an alright player and be happy that Lashoff has looked pretty decent as well. No one should claim either are the best on the team or that either have been bad.

 

[Winger98]

Which is why I have hope Jarnkrok is going to be on an accelerated track to be honest. He should be a two time World Championship player, he might start in Grand Rapids but I hope they really do give him an honest chance at making the team.

I'm hoping if Jarnkrok's ready, he makes it, too. I'd even move him to wing for a year, like I think we did with Z. And if we make room for Tatar and Nyquist, we should be able to roll three lines with some scoring punch.

Yeah, sure. But you get the point. If Nyquist is really a prospect that isn't ready until he's 24 ---

This is a team that has a prospect (Tatar) make the Slovakian WC team. And out of camp, a 26 year old from Switzerland makes it over a second round pick who has been in Grand Rapids for four years and who looked just as good at the WCs.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I think we both have wanted to see kids get bigger shots before they're getting them. Z was a far better player at a younger age, though.

I still don't get a great feel for how the Wings make roster decisions. We give Babcock flack for being too conservative in some regards - like his lineups - but then he takes a flier on Brunner. And from past comments we know he wanted Smith on the team well before this season.

Regardless, Tatar/Andersson/Lashoff(!!)/Kindl are getting shots this year and running with them. I hope Holland takes notices and adjusts the lineup accordingly or is able to pawn them off for something big.

 

[RedMenace]

Regardless, Tatar/Andersson/Lashoff(!!)/Kindl are getting shots this year and running with them. I hope Holland takes notices and adjusts the lineup accordingly or is able to pawn them off for something big.

Tatar, Lashoff, and Kindl are the keepers, to me at least. Holland likes his home-grown talent, and those guys can play (much to the chagrin of some). Kindl and Lashoff will likely never get past the 2nd pairing, but two big guys who can actually play and came from within seem like they'd stick. Tatar, well, if they get rid of him, I'll have to add another tick in the "Crazy" column; kid's a player, and him and Nyquist on a line with someone like Datsyuk -- or even a speedy, puck retriever like Helm -- would be ridiculous.

Andersson is still a bit of an enigma to me: Is he a solid 3rd/4th line center, or does he have the potential to move up the lineup? Does anyone think he might be groomed to take on the role of Holmstrom? He seems to have some great hand-eye coordination, he's big, and he has some skill; could be just what Dr. Rahmani ordered for a net-front guy going forward. I mean, if he's willing to take the punishment, that's a damned nice niche he could carve for himself.

 

[GT500x]

Other teams have done well without a Holmstrom. I think we should aim for the same success and let go of the past.

 

[Winger98]

Tatar, Lashoff, and Kindl are the keepers, to me at least. Holland likes his home-grown talent, and those guys can play (much to the chagrin of some). Kindl and Lashoff will likely never get past the 2nd pairing, but two big guys who can actually play and came from within seem like they'd stick. Tatar, well, if they get rid of him, I'll have to add another tick in the "Crazy" column; kid's a player, and him and Nyquist on a line with someone like Datsyuk -- or even a speedy, puck retriever like Helm -- would be ridiculous.

Andersson is still a bit of an enigma to me: Is he a solid 3rd/4th line center, or does he have the potential to move up the lineup? Does anyone think he might be groomed to take on the role of Holmstrom? He seems to have some great hand-eye coordination, he's big, and he has some skill; could be just what Dr. Rahmani ordered for a net-front guy going forward. I mean, if he's willing to take the punishment, that's a damned nice niche he could carve for himself.

I think all of the kids up right now are keepers, until we get something better. They're cheap, they work, and they're getting better. With Andersson, I think at the very least he's a bottom6 guy - if not at center, then on the wing. Quit paying Eaves $1.2m or shifting through the waiver wire to fill these roles, and just keep the kid.

With Nyquist, Tatar, and Jarnkrok...next year we should have the skill to still build three good pairings up front: Z-Brunner, Datsyuk-Franzen, Helm-Sammy. Just put a kid in the vacant wing spots on each line and run with it. Or if we re-sign Flip, or sign a UFA center, bump Helm down to the fourth line and we're even deeper.

Bertuzzi could be a bit of a wrench in things, but we should have some roster space next year to make some promotions. And if someone does have to start the year in GR, we have a bunch of guys who typically get injured at least once a year and miss ~10 games. There will be opportunities call someone up. As long as we don't go out and sign another bunch of middle of the road players...

 

[RedMenace]

I think all of the kids up right now are keepers, until we get something better. They're cheap, they work, and they're getting better. With Andersson, I think at the very least he's a bottom6 guy - if not at center, then on the wing. Quit paying Eaves $1.2m or shifting through the waiver wire to fill these roles, and just keep the kid.

With Nyquist, Tatar, and Jarnkrok...next year we should have the skill to still build three good pairings up front: Z-Brunner, Datsyuk-Franzen, Helm-Sammy. Just put a kid in the vacant wing spots on each line and run with it. Or if we re-sign Flip, or sign a UFA center, bump Helm down to the fourth line and we're even deeper.

Bertuzzi could be a bit of a wrench in things, but we should have some roster space next year to make some promotions. And if someone does have to start the year in GR, we have a bunch of guys who typically get injured at least once a year and miss ~10 games. There will be opportunities call someone up. As long as we don't go out and sign another bunch of middle of the road players...

Other than Jarnkrok (which would be a stretch), that still a pretty stagnant roster, and it really is a tough thing to predict: Will Holland stand-pat like most people think, or will he surprise everyone and make some significant moves? If not at the deadline, perhaps the off-season?

Can't please all the people all the time.

Other teams have done well without a Holmstrom. I think we should aim for the same success and let go of the past.

Well it seems that nearly every team now puts a guy in front of the goalie a-la Holmstrom, so doing away with that would mean having a lot more skill on the PP -- which, at this point, the Wings don't have.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I guess I just dont understand how you can be so down on a guy whose 22 and went undrafted who has been hitting and blocking shots and has shown he could be a decent stay at home guy in the future and then so high on a 26 year old former first round pick who is now just finally starting to look like a half decent NHLer.

I think you guys should be happy hes turning into what looks like an alright player and be happy that Lashoff has looked pretty decent as well. No one should claim either are the best on the team or that either have been bad.

Because one guy has dime a dozen ability and one guy doesn't.