kindl 27 points, + 49 over a 82 game season

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I actually am 99% sure I got confused with Mara and Paul Martin, but either way you're selling Mara short. He had a very respectable peak

I remember the post, it was Paul Martin for sure.

 

[joe89]

I actually am 99% sure I got confused with Mara and Paul Martin, but either way you're selling Mara short. He had a very respectable peak

I was just a little confused. Mara had a few good years but he was made of glass so wasn't sure if the comparison was meant as a positive or negative.

Martin is certainly a very positive comparison, I'm not sure I see it though. He's always been a respectable defender.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I was just a little confused. Mara had a few good years but he was made of glass so wasn't sure if the comparison was meant as a positive or negative.

Martin is certainly a very positive comparison, I'm not sure I see it though. He's always been a respectable defender.

I think as a prospect Kindl projected to be Martin-esque.(Two way defender, top 4, good first pass, good size, etc.) and I think his draft position supports that, but whether or not he still projects to that type of role/player today isn't clear. I think he still has top 4 potential, however.

 

[joe89]

I think as a prospect Kindl projected to be Martin-esque.(Two way defender, top 4, good first pass, good size, etc.) and I think his draft position supports that, but whether or not he still projects to that type of role/player today isn't clear. I think he still has top 4 potential, however.

I need to see the post first, what the actual comparison was. Martin averaged 20 minutes in his rookie year at 22. Since then he's been a 22-25 minute man every year.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I need to see the post first, what the actual comparison was. Martin averaged 20 minutes in his rookie year at 22. Since then he's been a 22-25 minute man every year.

Found it:

When I evaluate defensemen, I typically will categorize them by their predominant skill set that generates their largest impact: Positional, Offensive, Speed, Physical, etc.

This by no means precludes a player from having multiple traits and more often than not the case is a particular aspect of the defenseman's game will be more pronounced and often overshadow many of the more subtle facets of their game. Scott Neidermayer's game revolved around superb skating and positioning that put him in place to prevent quality scoring opportunities and alllow from a smooth and quick transition to the offensive zone. Chris Pronger is a dominant physical force but underated passing allows him to consistently produce 40-50 points a season through excelelnt zone management that extends periods of offensive possession. Defensemen have so many responsibilities that they are some type of amalgamation or these traits.

With that being said, typically offense is far more difficult to generate from the blue line than becoming defensively responsible. Offense seems to be something you intiatively understand and contribute. Defense can be developed through careful coaching and player development. Watching the best offensive defensivemen, their innate sense to patiently walk the blue line and allow a passing or shooting lane to develop, to make a clean break out pass and hit a skater in stride - these attributes are rare and I've never seen a prospect suddenly have them when it was originally outside their abilities to begin with. I cannot for the life of me think of a physical, defensive minded, stay-at-home defensemen baloon to a 50-70 point defenseman. However I can think of countless examples of a outstanding offensively gift defenseman gaining enough sense of the game where they are no longer a defensive liability (Sergei Gonchar, Sergei Zubov, Dan Boyle, Brian Campbell).

The Red Wings typically draft balanced or offensively oriented defensemen because they are more valuable and far more rare. The outcries from the message boards for a true gritty powerhouse on the blue line are understandable, however a player like that cannot thrive in a puck-possession, skating-oriented, positional system. Take Hal Gill for instance. He is a physical, experienced, and fundamentally sound defensive specialist. He would fail miserably in the Red Wings system for his inability to follow the flow of the system and lacks the agility and accumen to make the necessary passes. Additionally, the aggressive body hitters are exactly that - aggressive and will chase the opportunity to hit and often leave their defensive responsibility to crush someone when a more conservative play would be just as impactful.

After the Wings acquire an offensive minded, defensemen - they take the time to develop and foster their defensive development. Many of the Wings top defensive prospects right now are still in the stages of learning to protect thier own zone (Almqvist, Smith, Lashoff, Jensen). Ericsson was a forward converted to a defensemen and still struggles with the nuance of the game but obviously possesses the neccessary offensive skill set to thrive in the Wings system.

Jakub Kindl is an excellent prospect and still far from reaching his potential. I feel that he has fallen victim to the great expectations of the fan base expecting the next great superstar on defense. He is a unique blend of size, speed, passing, and aggressiveness that often isn't available for the Red Wings during the draft. Players that possess his tools are rare and always some of the earliest players picked every year - I consider it a great boon that we have someone with his potential. As far as his current state, he's about exactly where he should be at this point of his career. He is learning in a limited role how to make the simple plays and when and how to approach different situations in the game. It has not always been pretty, but I take a big sign of encouragement that he doesn't often make the same mistakes in the same game. He has demonstrated strong lateral movement and slighty better than average speed going north to south. He has a dececptively strong shot and it appears that he is attempting to develop a low, driving shot from the point like Lidstrom's with varying level of success. He has yet to really use the full potential of his 6'3" frame as he often doesn't take the body and that has been a bit of a surprise as the rumblings I've heard of him is that he is an aggressive body man but I'm willing to give him a pass as he is focusing of being in the right spot. His passing has exceeded my expectations at this point.

So far, he's exactly what he should be at this point given the inconsistent amount of playing time he has received. He possess a great all-round skill set and shows excellent mobility for a player his size. He is still unsure of his position at times but has demonstrated that he is working and aware of his shortcomings at this point. He lacks confidence to make a clear transition from defense to offense and offense to defense and often errs on the side of conservative play by lagging behind and not joining the rush. He does not take too many risks with his passing and tries to keep it simple and uncomplicated. It looks as if he is trying to "not make a mistake" and less focused on "making the play". Which is appropriate given his role at this point.

He is obviously gifted physically and has the potential to develop into a 3rd of 4th defenseman in this league. I don't believe that is unreasonable to assume in 3 years or so that he'll be a 2nd pairing defenseman with an offensive upside of 30-35 points a season while logging big minutes.

Career Potential - Paul Martin.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=867892

 

[Run the Jewels]

I think he learned the lesson after those 3 in-a-row penalties at Nashville.

0 penalties since that in these five games against harder opponents.

I don't understand these Kindl negatives RIGHT NOW when he has been nothing but good in the last 5 games. I also critiziced him at earlier at the season, but so far it looks like those bad days are behind.

Eh, it's still the worst while facing the absolute worst competition the NHL has to offer. Worse than Kronwall, who rightfully gets criticized despite playing tougher competition. On the Power Play Kindl generates absolutely no offense, none, despite getting plenty of ice time. So he cannot contribute in any meaningful way to any specialty teams unit. Sorry if that comes across as being harsh, he's not the offensive player many dream he is and if he ain't there as a 26 year old when is it magically going to happen?

I just don't get it, Jiri Hudler who many felt was treated unfairly, actually contributed in several areas: even strength, power play and the shootout. It appears Kindl is benefiting from being on the ice at even strength the same time as our 3rd line that has been incredibly hot since Andersson and Tatar were brought up. Check it out.

4th assist: secondary assist where Tatar set up Andersson.
3rd assist: secondary assist where Z did all the work setting up Tootoo
2nd assist: primary assist on Andersson's goal.
1st assist: secondary assist where Tootoo set up Miller

50% of his assists have come with the 3rd line that has been one of our best scoring lines over the past 13 or so games. Is this coincidence? Unfortunately we haven't seen any data beyond this very small window to indicate he's even a reliable point producer at even strength against the weakest competition the NHL has to offer.

Seriously, Joakim Andersson's first game was February 9th. Prior to that date Kindl had one point all season. Again, small sample size but there's reason to believe Kindl is benefiting from being on the ice when the third line is competing and not vice versa.

He's looked better this season and he's not on the ice for goals against, so that's definitely a good sign. However there's simply not enough to show he's an offensive point producer or that he can be a contributor on either specialty teams unit. And if that doesn't concern you I honestly have no idea what to say.

 

[joe89]

Found it:


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=867892

Ok, solid post. The two years since obviously hasn't gone quite as planned. In fact a lot of it still holds true, except that he's a little older now. The question is how long you stick to a certain projection. 24? 26? 28? We can all see that Ericsson is a much better defenseman at 28 than he was at 26. I think most would be fine calling Ericsson a top4 defenseman now. And Kindl has the tools to be one, so the next few seasons will be telling.

Paul Martin is a top pairing defenseman though, in my world.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Ok, solid post. The two years since obviously hasn't gone quite as planned. In fact a lot of it still holds true, except that he's a little older now. The question is how long you stick to a certain projection. 24? 26? 28? We can all see that Ericsson is a much better defenseman at 28 than he was at 26. I think most would be fine calling Ericsson a top4 defenseman now. And Kindl has the tools to be one, so the next few seasons will be telling.

Paul Martin is a top pairing defenseman though, in my world.

Yes, as you can all see in that thread two years ago I held out hope that Kindl could become a top 4 d-man. That ship has sailed IMO but I'm happy Ericsson has easily surpassed my meager expectations for him.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Ok, solid post. The two years since obviously hasn't gone quite as planned. In fact a lot of it still holds true, except that he's a little older now. The question is how long you stick to a certain projection. 24? 26? 28? We can all see that Ericsson is a much better defenseman at 28 than he was at 26. I think most would be fine calling Ericsson a top4 defenseman now. And Kindl has the tools to be one, so the next few seasons will be telling.

Paul Martin is a top pairing defenseman though, in my world.

All good points, I think he's worth holding onto, at least short term. Let's see how he continues to develop with Smith. He's better now with the team now than at any other point in his NHL career.

 

[pdd]

I just don't get it, Jiri Hudler who many felt was treated unfairly, actually contributed in several areas: even strength, power play and the shootout.

Printing and framing this.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Eh, it's still the worst while facing the absolute worst competition the NHL has to offer. Worse than Kronwall, who rightfully gets criticized despite playing tougher competition. On the Power Play Kindl generates absolutely no offense, none, despite getting plenty of ice time. So he cannot contribute in any meaningful way to any specialty teams unit. Sorry if that comes across as being harsh, he's not the offensive player many dream he is and if he ain't there as a 26 year old when is it magically going to happen?

I just don't get it, Jiri Hudler who many felt was treated unfairly, actually contributed in several areas: even strength, power play and the shootout. It appears Kindl is benefiting from being on the ice at even strength the same time as our 3rd line that has been incredibly hot since Andersson and Tatar were brought up. Check it out.

4th assist: secondary assist where Tatar set up Andersson.
3rd assist: secondary assist where Z did all the work setting up Tootoo
2nd assist: primary assist on Andersson's goal.
1st assist: secondary assist where Tootoo set up Miller

50% of his assists have come with the 3rd line that has been one of our best scoring lines over the past 13 or so games. Is this coincidence? Unfortunately we haven't seen any data beyond this very small window to indicate he's even a reliable point producer at even strength against the weakest competition the NHL has to offer.

Seriously, Joakim Andersson's first game was February 9th. Prior to that date Kindl had one point all season. Again, small sample size but there's reason to believe Kindl is benefiting from being on the ice when the third line is competing and not vice versa.

He's looked better this season and he's not on the ice for goals against, so that's definitely a good sign. However there's simply not enough to show he's an offensive point producer or that he can be a contributor on either specialty teams unit. And if that doesn't concern you I honestly have no idea what to say.

Stats are helpful and informative but this isn't a vacuum, their play on the ice says a lot more about them than their stats, especially for defenseman. Kindl has improved tremendously this year and when you watch him play its obvious he has the potential to be a 30-40 point defenseman. Its just a matter of putting his tools together and if he is smart enough.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

One of those secondary assists was a beauty.

Some gave him a pass to the leftwing boards near his own blueline.
It looked like a sucker pass, because he was surrounded. He one-time the pass out to center to a player on the move, who went in and set up the goal

Not all secondary assists are equal

If you watched yesterday, Kindl looked really good manning the point on the second PP unit. They were very dangerous

 

[Frk It]

Wow I hate Corsi and the fact that people base their arguments around it.

How about the fact that when you actually watch Kindl this year you can tell he looks much better than he has, and when playing with composure and confidence actually looks like a high-end d-man.

 

[needzmoarcleary]

Wow I hate Corsi and the fact that people base their arguments around it.

How about the fact that when you actually watch Kindl this year you can tell he looks much better than he has, and when playing with composure and confidence actually looks like a high-end d-man.

Totally agree with ya, this year he has had some blunders but when his play is on he def looks a lot better. I remember distinctly saying no way is that kindl. I was thinking along the same line as a lot on here maybe we should move him, I was the same way with E, I'm glad we still have E maybe Kindl will pan out similarly.

 

[SoupNazi]

Printing and framing this.

Talk about a waste of a good frame.

 

[Filppula]

When are people going to start realizing this guy has real good potential? Nice blast today which takes him up to 3G, 4A in 19 games with a team best +11. In the 19 games he's played this season only ONCE has he been a minus player.

If you guve this guy more responsibility and more shifts with the top guys I have no doubt he'd develop into a 2nd paring, 35-40 point guy.

 

[cjm502]

When are people going to start realizing this guy has real good potential? Nice blast today which takes him up to 3G, 4A in 19 games with a team best +11. In the 19 games he's played this season only ONCE has he been a minus player.

If you guve this guy more responsibility and more shifts with the top guys I have no doubt he'd develop into a 2nd paring, 35-40 point guy.

I know plus minus is not a very reliable stat, but that is still very impressive.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Count me in on the Kindl bandwagon. Looks like hes finally starting to break out of his regression. Who would have thought two years ago him and Ericsson(around the time the memory of his awesome playoff debut was starting to look like a fluke) would be so critical to our future and playing so well?

 

[pdd]

Talk about a waste of a good frame.

Better use of a good frame than Franzen's uses for a good frame...

 

[pdd]

Count me in on the Kindl bandwagon. Looks like hes finally starting to break out of his regression. Who would have thought two years ago him and Ericsson(around the time the memory of his awesome playoff debut was starting to look like a fluke) would be so critical to our future and playing so well?

I'll refer you back to the offseason, when I said that Jakub Kindl was a) better than Kyle Quincey, b) a legit top four defenseman and arguably one of our four best defensemen; as well as c) my comments that Jonathan Ericsson was a solid #2 or a #3 on a contender.

I received many a laugh for those comments. I stand by them.

 

[Claypool]

This should come as no surprised. He's barely played that much in the NHL. He spent too many seasons in the AHL.

 

[LastWordArmy]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why people hate Kindl and actively campaign against him.
Anyone see his work on the PP last game? He worked the blueline better than Kronwall did.
Anyone see his SIX hits, including two really hard ones along the wall?

There are 4 issues I see in Kindl's game.
1) You gotta stay on him him or he'll start playing soft.
2) Indecisiveness with the puck on the breakout.
3) Seems to get caught up the ice too often
40 When a guy is skating on the Wing, he doesn't close quickly enough and gives us a pretty decent shot.

If you ask me, he'ls going to fix everything but #1 with playing time.

And as he gets better with the puck and on the powerplay, he's going to turn into a 10 goal, 40 point guy... maybe even more, depending on his circumstances, and teams might not ask him to play outside is comfort zone.

Personally, I'll never understand why a player needs to be coaxed into playing tough. Skating around, hitting people, and battling for every inch of the ice is hard work. But it's also a lot of fun.

Last year with Kindl Wings were 37-18 .....without him 11-10 and he had a +7 in just 14 minutes of ice time per game. (weather or not it was him being affective is not part of the discussion, but he certainly did not drag the team down one bit)

He is playing around 17+ minutes a game now, has a huge +10 and has been fairly affective at moving the puck OUT of the zone with his surprising speed. He is averaging about 1.7 shots per game, up from his 1.2 last year too.

He is a solid, solid player for the wings. He is good physically too.

 

[joe89]

I have another thing he needs to improve and it kinda goes hand in hand with getting caught up ice. It's something that goes for many on our team but he needs to get better at shooting through screens. And if the lane isn't there, don't force it.

All in all he's making strides, things I didn't see from him last year.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'll refer you back to the offseason, when I said that Jakub Kindl was a) better than Kyle Quincey, b) a legit top four defenseman and arguably one of our four best defensemen; as well as c) my comments that Jonathan Ericsson was a solid #2 or a #3 on a contender.

I received many a laugh for those comments. I stand by them.

I was with you on Kindl vs Quincey.

You're still way off on Ericsson being a solid 2-3 on a contender.
He lacks hockey sense.
In two years, Kindl is going be viewed by most as better than Ericsson.

Ericsson will always have a place in this league because he's 6'5 and skates well and does enough things fairly well.

But his offensive and defensive awareness are average.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Last year with Kindl Wings were 37-18 .....without him 11-10 and he had a +7 in just 14 minutes of ice time per game. (weather or not it was him being affective is not part of the discussion, but he certainly did not drag the team down one bit)

He is playing around 17+ minutes a game now, has a huge +10 and has been fairly affective at moving the puck OUT of the zone with his surprising speed. He is averaging about 1.7 shots per game, up from his 1.2 last year too.

He is a solid, solid player for the wings. He is good physically too.

Last year, however, he wasn't that good. He wasn't that physical.

In his defense, he wasn't played to his strengths.

The most concerning aspect of Kindl's game are the giveways in his own zone and neutral zone.
Last year he had 19 giveaways all year. This year he has 17.
Maybe he's stressed out by being bounced out of the lineup by Lashoff and CC.
But Kindl appears indecisive in when moving the puck out of his own end.

He's gotten much better in this recent stretch, however.