KHL Expansion Part VIII

[vorky]

Well that was a somewhat comprehensive response, I’m impressed. Tell me exactly from this one post what you think is wrong. All you’ve said is “wrong facts,” and we’ve supplied evidence for what I’ve said. Point out exactly what you think is wrong, or do it and provide evidence to the contrary.

Reading back in this thread and others, it would seem you just say “wrong” a lot and not much else after. Be specific, exactly what facts are wrong, and if you’re really that much of an expert then you can easily find evidence to the contrary. I get there is a culture barrier, but that’s a pretty universal theme.

It is a shame you do not see your factual error. Especially, if that error is a core of your argumentation. Someone could consider all your argumentation as wrong if you are not able to present the correct facts.

But I am a kind person, so I will help you.

The wrong facts here & other your posts (just one as an example)

Not happening. Red Bull and owner Mateschitz have long been proponents of EC Red Bull Salzburg and EHC Red Bull München playing in the EBEL and DEL respectively. They're in support of growing both leagues, and both have certainly been on the rise. DEL has the second highest average support in Europe, behind only the Swiss NLA and ahead of the KHL itself. EBEL lags behind but they are also strengthening.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

It is a shame you do not see your factual error. Especially, if that error is a core of your argumentation. Someone could consider all your argumentation as wrong if you are not able to present the correct facts.

But I am a kind person, so I will help you.

The wrong facts here & other your posts (just one as an example)

There's still quite few possible things in there, but I would expect nothing less from you. For Red Bull wanting their teams in the DEL and EBEL(edit: behind a paywall): Mateschitz' dreibeiniges Steckenpferd - derStandard.at

For both leagues growing, I don't think that needs documentation. Look at where they both were ten years ago to now.

For the attendance, you have to use 2017-18 numbers since the 2018-19 season isn't even done yet for the KHL, DEL, or any of the other leagues and the numbers are still being compiled. Using information that is still being incomplete and still being collected isn't proper: Euro Attendance | Euro Hockey Clubs

 

[Albatros]

I did not speak about "third league hockey"

About what, then? You think Russians living in Germany would fill the arena in Hannover or Hamburg if they had a team playing in the KHL? It's just not what the locals want.

 

[vorky]

About what, then? You think Russians living in Germany would fill the arena in Hannover or Hamburg if they had a team playing in the KHL? It's just not what the locals want.

No. I say that RB Munich will have higher attendance at new SAP Arena than having now.

 

[Albatros]

In Munich they already have a larger arena existing next door, but the primary problem rather than anything arena related is that no one cares about the team. In principle there's a connection between TSV 1860 and EHC, but the Red Bull identity makes it unpalatable to many who might otherwise be interested. SAP joining the mess doesn't really help, neither does anything related to Russia.

 

[vorky]

In Munich they already have a larger arena existing next door, but the primary problem rather than anything arena related is that no one cares about the team. In principle there's a connection between TSV 1860 and EHC, but the Red Bull identity makes it unpalatable to many who might otherwise be interested.

We will see.

Generally, when a team gets a new venue, the attendance grows. You claim that this axiom does not apply to Germany. I am fine with it, your opinion. I can give you examples from the KHL when new arena=higher attendance. Even Sparta Prague´s attendance is higher since moving permanently to O2 Arena.

 

[Albatros]

It depends on the circumstances, if the old arena was not particularly popular (and in Munich it is not) then a new one can have some positive impact. But it should not create a situation where the atmosphere suffers, because that is going to affect the situation way more negatively than a shiny new building helps it. When Hannover got their new arena they went from 3000 to 5000, but it's a whole different world having a 3.500 capacity arena mostly full than a 11.000 one mostly empty. Financially it never was a good deal and ultimately killed the club.

 

[Jussi]

Even Sparta Prague´s attendance is higher since moving permanently to O2 Arena.

Hockey is just liiiiiiitle bit more popular in Prague, not to mention Sparta Prague compared to RB München, and the Czech Republic than in München and Germany.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Djurgården didn’t even get close to a sellout until Holtz debuted in the lineup, them moving into Globen not going to change that either unless these teams stop being so parochial.

When the rink in Prague opened, Slavia played there and didn’t draw much better than the old place. Sparta had a good thing going at the old barn, but ownership decided to step up, market hard and the move paid off. A Prague-Berlin game wouldn’t draw? Nuremberg/Pilsen?

 

[Albatros]

A Prague-Berlin game wouldn’t draw? Nuremberg/Pilsen?

Not really, Czech hockey or sport in general is not really a thing in Germany so despite the proximity there's no rivalry.

 

[vorky]

The President of the Russian Federation to the Prime Minister of Sweden: The sport unifies our countries. I recommend the Swedish club to join the KHL

PS: Please our Swedish friends to avoid the rhetoric on how Swedes do not care about the KHL. We have heard it many times, so no need to discuss it again.

 

[Jonimaus]

The President of the Russian Federation to the Prime Minister of Sweden: The sport unifies our countries. I recommend the Swedish club to join the KHL

This must be the biggest joke in sports history. Did someone actually say that?
That is litterally the exact opposit of what any european wants with their sport, for it to turn into something political, much less international politics. I don't know if I should laugh at it or cry that someone could say something so stupid.

 

[Exarz]

So it clearly seems like the KHL is pushing for a Swedish team now. This is just pure speculation, but maybe AIK is a candidate (again), especially since their idiotic push for the SHL has left the club in, once again, a quite bad economic shape. If their current rights issue is unsuccessful, thus leaving the club close to bankruptcy, maybe joining the KHL will be their last resort to keep the club alive?

 

[vorky]

So it clearly seems like the KHL is pushing for a Swedish team now. This is just pure speculation, but maybe AIK is a candidate (again), especially since their idiotic push for the SHL has left the club in, once again, a quite bad economic shape. If their current rights issue is unsuccessful, thus leaving the club close to bankruptcy, maybe joining the KHL will be their last resort to keep the club alive?

Medvedev once again said the AIK has been the only realistic Swedish expansion scenario so far.

It is really sad what SIHA has done with AIK Stockholm, only bad news coming since SIHA blocked their move.

It is interesting that two clubs, who could join the KHL - AIK and Sparta Prague having worse and worse seasons since then ..... and I do not only speak about results on ice.

Even more surprising for some posters is that financial groups - wanting to finance their being in the KHL - do not care about their financing in a national league. Honestly, if I should use the rhetoric of our friends - so, the KHL club is in red numbers, SWE/CZ/GER etc clubs having only profits - I do not understand it. Why do they want to invest in a KHL club with only deficit, but do not care about investing in SHL club (example) while having a profit from it?

Last but not least. I will post here information that Forsberg, the VP of SIHA, has attended the KHL playoff game in St.Petersburg. As a member of the IIHF 2023 WC delegation, he attended SKA v CSKA game. If I were him, as a Swede, I would refuse to attend any KHL game. Looks like, it is not a problem for him.

 

[Toro2017]

So it clearly seems like the KHL is pushing for a Swedish team now. This is just pure speculation, but maybe AIK is a candidate (again), especially since their idiotic push for the SHL has left the club in, once again, a quite bad economic shape. If their current rights issue is unsuccessful, thus leaving the club close to bankruptcy, maybe joining the KHL will be their last resort to keep the club alive?

And with AIK they (KHL) would make the same mistake, as they did in Finland. Atleast if their goal is to get a team that would unite the country behind one team, and so would generate biggest possible tv and other sponsors for russian league from Sweden. Jokerit is not a team for whole country but just a team for half a city. I dont know about swedish "sport landscape", but I would assume that AIK could not even unite whole Stockholm behind the team, let alone the whole country. Does AIK have positive image amongs swedes outside of Stockholm?

 

[alko]

And with AIK they (KHL) would make the same mistake, as they did in Finland. Atleast if their goal is to get a team that would unite the country behind one team, and so would generate biggest possible tv and other sponsors for russian league from Sweden. Jokerit is not a team for whole country but just a team for half a city. I dont know about swedish "sport landscape", but I would assume that AIK could not even unite whole Stockholm behind the team, let alone the whole country. Does AIK have positive image amongs swedes outside of Stockholm?

Replace Sweden with Slovakia, AIK with Slovan and you have exactly the same.

 

[Exarz]

And with AIK they (KHL) would make the same mistake, as they did in Finland. Atleast if their goal is to get a team that would unite the country behind one team, and so would generate biggest possible tv and other sponsors for russian league from Sweden. Jokerit is not a team for whole country but just a team for half a city. I dont know about swedish "sport landscape", but I would assume that AIK could not even unite whole Stockholm behind the team, let alone the whole country. Does AIK have positive image amongs swedes outside of Stockholm?

I think it's the only possible scenario is having an established club joining the KHL. Franchise teams don't tend to work in Europe, so AIK/Jokerit/Sparta/Slovan (and so on) is the best way to go from the KHL's point of view. You can't unite a whole nation behind the team but you can however get a rather decent existing fanbase to continue supporting the club.

AIK has a rather decent following around Sweden, but it would in no way ever unite the whole Stockholm area (the AIK-Djurgården-Hammarby rivalry is just too big). AIK has stated themselves that they also want to play in Solna, where their biggest fanbase is.

Things talking against AIK is that they would get nowhere near decent KHL attendance playing at Hovet or in the Ericsson Globe as it is in the wrong side of the city (they even struggle filling up Hovet now during important matches), and if they were to play in Solna, they wish to build a smaller venue (around 7000 I guess) as their hockey fanbase is just not big enough. If both parts would be fine with the idea of playing in front of 5000-6000 fans, so be it.

 

[Toro2017]

I think it's the only possible scenario is having an established club joining the KHL.

Yes, this might be the case, but even then you can make different choices. In Finland case i'd say that even if Espoo Blues would not had the same fanbase as Jokerit, it could have grow eventually bigger than Jokerit (with right management). When Espoo Blues participated to the first edition of CHL, I recall that fans of other teams were glad for their success. I have never seen the same with Jokerit, even now when they play different competition than the other Liiga teams. And in the capital area both HIFK fans and Jokerit fans have always considered Espoo Blues as "little brother" and there were no "hate" between them. Not at all the samekind as between HIFK fans and Jokerit fans. So I belive that Espoo Blues could have grown to be team for whole capital area and eventually for whole country (with the right management ofcourse). On the otherhand Kärpät is said to be team for half the country and even if they have some rival teams also, I could imagine that they could have grown to be team for whole Finland. In Jokerit case I cannot see it happening. Even now, after five years they been away from Liiga.

I dont know how it is in Sweden, but If I were the president of KHL, I would try to find a team that would play in big market area, but would not have big rival teams (atleast not in that same market area). First I would target Frölunda, but doesn't they have big rivalry with Färjestad? So maybe instead I would try to target Malmö. Do they have any big rival team? Because there is good connection to Copenhagen, could that team become not just team for one country, but two or 1,5?

 

[Section Netherlands]

Does AIK have positive image amongs swedes outside of Stockholm?

AIK would struggle immensly. If their club had the same hockey support as Djurgården, I would give them a slight chance. But AIK is the team everyone hates in Sweden. In an ideal scenario, they would get support of a third of a city, and whatever Solnians are scattered in the country. If they suddenly gained an interest for hockey, that is. I could basically support any Swedish team in the KHL, except for them. They have the worst image outside their own fanbase.

 

[Section Netherlands]

I dont know how it is in Sweden, but If I were the president of KHL, I would try to find a team that would play in big market area, but would not have big rival teams (atleast not in that same market area). First I would target Frölunda, but doesn't they have big rivalry with Färjestad? So maybe instead I would try to target Malmö. Do they have any big rival team? Because there is good connection to Copenhagen, could that team become not just team for one country, but two or 1,5?

Frölunda would be the ideal candidate in my opinion. Likeable, good managing, big support who are not only present in Göteborg. But we haven't had any indications that they are interested?

Regarding Malmö, their only rival is Rögle, a small town team in the same region. But the same problem is here, they would have a hard time representing Sweden, and even harder to represent Denmark. They are a rich club also. I would say slightly more possible than any other Swedish team. But still very unlikely.

 

[Albatros]

I think it's the only possible scenario is having an established club joining the KHL. Franchise teams don't tend to work in Europe, so AIK/Jokerit/Sparta/Slovan (and so on) is the best way to go from the KHL's point of view. You can't unite a whole nation behind the team but you can however get a rather decent existing fanbase to continue supporting the club.

AIK has a rather decent following around Sweden, but it would in no way ever unite the whole Stockholm area (the AIK-Djurgården-Hammarby rivalry is just too big). AIK has stated themselves that they also want to play in Solna, where their biggest fanbase is.

Things talking against AIK is that they would get nowhere near decent KHL attendance playing at Hovet or in the Ericsson Globe as it is in the wrong side of the city (they even struggle filling up Hovet now during important matches), and if they were to play in Solna, they wish to build a smaller venue (around 7000 I guess) as their hockey fanbase is just not big enough. If both parts would be fine with the idea of playing in front of 5000-6000 fans, so be it.

I don't disagree fundamentally, but Johanneshov is Hammarby territory and they don't have a professional hockey team at the moment. Between AIK and Djurgården it is about evenly matched in those parts. Fan base is not really a problem any more than it is for DIF, the standard of hockey operations more so. Of course playing in Solna would be better.

Anyhow, as soon as the KHL enters the equation it's going to go wrong anyway, no matter which Swedish team it should be.

 

[Exarz]

I don't disagree fundamentally, but Johanneshov is Hammarby territory and they don't have a professional hockey team at the moment. Between AIK and Djurgården it is about evenly matched in those parts. Fan base is not really a problem any more than it is for DIF, the standard of hockey operations more so. Of course playing in Solna would be better.

Anyhow, as soon as the KHL enters the equation it's going to go wrong anyway, no matter which Swedish team it should be.

Johanneshov is Hammarby territory, yes, but it’s worth mentioning that it’s the stadium where hockey has been played in Stockholm since 1955.

And the fact that Hammarby has no professional hockey club is irrelevant in this scenario, the rivalry goes passed hockey. Hammarby fans in for example football don’t support any other Stockholm club in hockey (funny enough Leksand is a popular team for them). In addition to that, Hammarby has not really had a strong hockey culture, bandy is far more popular for them when it comes to winter sports.

 

[Jussi]

Well would you agree that lots of funny things have been said here also? For example some users are talking a lot about diplomacy here, but they don't seem to understand first thing about diplomacy. Let say Putin would say something like "hey, you should get a KHL team in Sweden" to swedish PM (to promote KHL expansion) . How should the PM react to that?

A) laughs at his face and say "no way Vladi boy"

B) just say something like "Intresting proposal" (that would not be a NO but not Yes either).

Anyone living in northern part of Europe would surely understand that one could say something like that to swedish PM, but one would be a fool to expect any kind of binding answer from him (atleast in public), as it would not be his place to make any binging commitment on that kind of a request. That kind of request should be for the local federation to decide and here it is not wise for government to interfere in such decisions by sport federations (not in public anyway).

And then this bizarre fixation on who goes to hockey games in Russia? If some salesperson ask me to a hockey game, I might go and have a fun time, but it would not mean that I would agree to everything the salesperson tries to sell me after it. It would only mean that next time I would possibly remember that person and might listen to what he has to say. So if I would take you jussi to hockey game, would it automaticly mean that we would make business after it. Would you for example buy my car, if I would take you to hockey game?

Yup. For example, Fasel going to games all over Europe is now meaningless since he's leaving the IIHF next year. Kurri was travelling all over the world as Team Finland GM so trying to make a ridiculous connect the dots issue from that is next level tinfoil hat stuff.

 

[Jussi]

Johanneshov is Hammarby territory, yes, but it’s worth mentioning that it’s the stadium where hockey has been played in Stockholm since 1955.

And the fact that Hammarby has no professional hockey club is irrelevant in this scenario, the rivalry goes passed hockey. Hammarby fans in for example football don’t support any other Stockholm club in hockey (funny enough Leksand is a popular team for them). In addition to that, Hammarby has not really had a strong hockey culture, bandy is far more popular for them when it comes to winter sports.

They seem to be like Kärpät in Finland. Almost cult like following, even from people with no ties to them. I saw a bit on Sportnytt on SVT years ago when it was on free cable over here, Leksand played at Globen against either Djurgården or AIK and it was like a home game for them. So many travelling fans not just from their own area but from Stockholm as well.

 

[Albatros]

Johanneshov is Hammarby territory, yes, but it’s worth mentioning that it’s the stadium where hockey has been played in Stockholm since 1955.

And the fact that Hammarby has no professional hockey club is irrelevant in this scenario, the rivalry goes passed hockey. Hammarby fans in for example football don’t support any other Stockholm club in hockey (funny enough Leksand is a popular team for them). In addition to that, Hammarby has not really had a strong hockey culture, bandy is far more popular for them when it comes to winter sports.

This is certainly true for those that support Hammarby in football, but there's also potential among those who do not have a preexisting strong affiliation with any club and are first and foremost interested in watching hockey. Younger generations are anyway more likely to choose between AIK and DIF even in soccer, while Hammarby's supporter base is much older. Regarding their own base AIK has the problem that many have an immigration background and do not have culturally as strong inclination towards hockey as they do towards football.