KHL Expansion Part VII

[vorky]

Hi @lindelof,

I will try to reply your questions, but I can be wrong, so take it into account.

I will start with Estonia, Lithuania & Poland. No, there will not be a KHL team in near future. By near future I mean 5-7 years. All are non-hockey regions, bad hockey infrastructure (fine, Cracow has a nice arena) and bad relationship with Russia. Uzbekistan is unlikely as well, no hockey tradition.

The KHL is interesting in clubs with bigger arenas, over 10 000+. Yes, there can be an exception, like with KRS, but there needs to be another value of the club for the KHL to negate this negative aspect of arena´s capacity. With China the another value is obvious.

Since Chernyshenko´s team came to office, the KHL started to behave more predictable. There are clear rules of expansion - the new team/market needs to bring some benefits for the league. Especially the benefits of good TV market, which can bring (in future) more money than current Russian teams, especially those in Russian regions. You can look at this TV criterion in latest KHL article here (ENG). Look at TV demand parameter, Jokerit is leading, and is much better than SKA. Riga is 8th, Slovan is 11th, KRS is 13th, and all had terrible season. By using other words, all foreign teams, not counting former CCCP from Astana and Minsk, are better than league´s average in this parameter. The league is interested in such markets, especially Jokerit´s one.

Therefore the league is interested in Germany and Switzerland. Hockey countries (ok, Germany not so much), big arenas, developed TV sport market (even if football is bigger). And what is more important, both countries has positive Russian feelings. I mean people. Germany has a tradition with Soviets, even Eisbaren Berlin is former Dynamo. And of course Swiss people remember Soviet hockey players. They are not so alien to Russian hockey than other nations (Sweden or Czechs). Finally, Russian bussiness has a strong position in Germany. So finding a sponsor should not be a problem (if no sanctions). The same in Switzerland.

That are criteria which the league demands - big arenas, TV potential, fans interest, stable financing.

I do not know what city will join the KHL. And it is not even known if they will be classic clubs or brand new one. I would prefer classic teams. As said earlier, there are problems with sanctions, therefore expansion to Europe was interupted for a few years. Another obstacle is the CHL. All top teams are involved here, even some of them do not want to participate. Current CHL President is an executive of ZSC Lions.

If we look at NLA map, there are only two or three candidates for the KHL - ZSC, Bern and Geneve. All due to arenas and Geneve has a connection to Timchenko.

With DEL it is the same. Eisbären, Adler, Cologne and perhaps Munich. Arenas and Eisbären has close to Gazprom. But the problem is an ownership due to sanctions. Munich is sponsored by Red Bull, which Salzburg´s junior teams played the MHL (run by the KHL). I will add that President of German Hockey Federation has close to the KHL, DEL President was invited to the KHL event. It is not a coincidence. And of course, Fasel has never missed a single KHL event. Btw, have many CHL´s events has he visited?

Another important criterion is a location - a capital is prefered. All non-Russian teams are in capital.

Swedish project Crowns is a mystery. Local federations is stongly anti-KHL.

There are rumors that 2nd Petersburg team to join. We will see.

I do not think Belarus & Kazakhstan will have 2nd team. Lack of money, players. Arenas are there, but it is not enough. The same with Latvia, Slovakia, Finland (anti-KHL attitude). I do not think the KHL wants second CHN team in near future.

Hope I replied to some of your questions. Hoping this discussion will not come to a point of "nobody cares in Sweden" argumentation as some posters like to do.

I wil give you some tips for research. Try to find out a bio of Franz Reindl and Gernot Tripcke and which German teams are close to them (like Jokerit is close to Kurri, former Jokerit´s player). If the KHL expands to Germany, these two guys a key to it.

 

[Jussi]

Hi @lindelof,

I will try to reply your questions, but I can be wrong, so take it into account.

I will start with Estonia, Lithuania & Poland. No, there will not be a KHL team in near future. By near future I mean 5-7 years. All are non-hockey regions, bad hockey infrastructure (fine, Cracow has a nice arena) and bad relationship with Russia. Uzbekistan is unlikely as well, no hockey tradition.

The KHL is interesting in clubs with bigger arenas, over 10 000+. Yes, there can be an exception, like with KRS, but there needs to be another value of the club for the KHL to negate this negative aspect of arena´s capacity. With China the another value is obvious.

Since Chernyshenko´s team came to office, the KHL started to behave more predictable. There are clear rules of expansion - the new team/market needs to bring some benefits for the league. Especially the benefits of good TV market, which can bring (in future) more money than current Russian teams, especially those in Russian regions. You can look at this TV criterion in latest KHL article here (ENG). Look at TV demand parameter, Jokerit is leading, and is much better than SKA. Riga is 8th, Slovan is 11th, KRS is 13th, and all had terrible season. By using other words, all foreign teams, not counting former CCCP from Astana and Minsk, are better than league´s average in this parameter. The league is interested in such markets, especially Jokerit´s one.

Therefore the league is interested in Germany and Switzerland. Hockey countries (ok, Germany not so much), big arenas, developed TV sport market (even if football is bigger). And what is more important, both countries has positive Russian feelings. I mean people. Germany has a tradition with Soviets, even Eisbaren Berlin is former Dynamo. And of course Swiss people remember Soviet hockey players. They are not so alien to Russian hockey than other nations (Sweden or Czechs). Finally, Russian bussiness has a strong position in Germany. So finding a sponsor should not be a problem (if no sanctions). The same in Switzerland.

That are criteria which the league demands - big arenas, TV potential, fans interest, stable financing.

I do not know what city will join the KHL. And it is not even known if they will be classic clubs or brand new one. I would prefer classic teams. As said earlier, there are problems with sanctions, therefore expansion to Europe was interupted for a few years. Another obstacle is the CHL. All top teams are involved here, even some of them do not want to participate. Current CHL President is an executive of ZSC Lions.

If we look at NLA map, there are only two or three candidates for the KHL - ZSC, Bern and Geneve. All due to arenas and Geneve has a connection to Timchenko.

With DEL it is the same. Eisbären, Adler, Cologne and perhaps Munich. Arenas and Eisbären has close to Gazprom. But the problem is an ownership due to sanctions. Munich is sponsored by Red Bull, which Salzburg´s junior teams played the MHL (run by the KHL). I will add that President of German Hockey Federation has close to the KHL, DEL President was invited to the KHL event. It is not a coincidence. And of course, Fasel has never missed a single KHL event. Btw, have many CHL´s events has he visited?

Another important criterion is a location - a capital is prefered. All non-Russian teams are in capital.

Swedish project Crowns is a mystery. Local federations is stongly anti-KHL.

There are rumors that 2nd Petersburg team to join. We will see.

I do not think Belarus & Kazakhstan will have 2nd team. Lack of money, players. Arenas are there, but it is not enough. The same with Latvia, Slovakia, Finland (anti-KHL attitude). I do not think the KHL wants second CHN team in near future.

Hope I replied to some of your questions. Hoping this discussion will not come to a point of "nobody cares in Sweden" argumentation as some posters like to do.

I wil give you some tips for research. Try to find out a bio of Franz Reindl and Gernot Tripcke and which German teams are close to them (like Jokerit is close to Kurri, former Jokerit´s player). If the KHL expands to Germany, these two guys a key to it.

Replying only to the bolded parts. First, since a Russian sponsor is mandatory to cover the travel costs, which would be even greater than Jokerit travel costs, that sponsor should not be in any sanctions lists. Jokerit are now experiencing major salary payment issues because banks scrutinixe every payment thoroughly and the Russian ownership have had to do a lot of trickery (like the Rotenbergs moving asset ownership to siblings not on sanctions lists) but the trend seems to be that it's getting increasingly difficult for them to continue that path.

Second, there's no anti-KHL attitude per se, but it's rather disinterest due to the situation Jokerit are in financially (most Liiga fans would now take them back with open arms to "rescue" the club) and the ownership situation (multiple conflicts of interest, therefore no real chance to win the league) and how the reffing has been in the public eye (also due to Jokerit). No club or fans want to see their club in the same predicvament that Jokerit are currently in.

 

[alko]

Is there any restriction, in regard of team roster? I mean, you said

I do not think Belarus & Kazakhstan will have 2nd team. Lack of money, players.

. Can a team from Kazachstan be made only from foreign players?

 

[vorky]

Is there any restriction, in regard of team roster? I mean, you said
. Can a team from Kazachstan be made only from foreign players?

Not sure now, I hope there is a rule you need to have 5 domestic players on 25-names roster list. That is not a problem for any team, even 2nd team from Kazakhstan.

If you look at all non-Russian KHL teams, all try to sign as many domestic players as possible (even KRS). Second Kazakh etc team would behave the same. But, I consider lack of money as bigger problem than domestic talent pool.

 

[lindelof]

Hi @lindelof,
long post

Very interresting, thank you for a great answer!

So you don´t think that the Baltic countries will get another team in the near future, to bad. I think that we be good for hockey development in those countries. But maybe in the next stage of KHL expansion phase.

From your answer I draw the conclusion that Germany and/or Switzerland is the most likely and also maybe most preferred. Two good choices imo, countries where hockey has the potential of growing. Would really like to see hockey improve in Germany.

A second team in St Peterburg has a meh feeling over it for me, when there is only a few spots open for expansion my opinion is that they should be used on foreign teams. But in a latter stage, a don´t have problem with another team in St Petersburg, especially since Moscow has three(four?).

Yeah, the crowns is a mess. The people behind the project were really naive I think, thought every would just fall into place and they are, in Sweden, deemed incompentent to run a club after their press conference in May -16. Won´t be a Crowns team in KHL.

Well currently, the fact is that "nobody cares in Sweden" or at least only a small minority cares. But that would certainly change if we got a team, but until then your average hockeyfan in Sweden won´t care. Somebody has to put a team here and first then the interest would come. Sportsfans in Sweden are VERY conservative and most changes in SHL are viewed with distrust.

What are the likelyhood of expanding to London or Paris? Two great european markets in big capitals of great countries.

Is it possible that teams from smaller countries will have to "settle" with joining the VHL and prove themselves there before joining the big league. An easier way in for teams which otherwise won´t be viewed as serious candidates as things stand currently.

 

[vorky]

@lindelof

Germany and Switzerland would be great addition to the KHL. It is logical to go there. I will add some backround and deeper insight, not exclusively hockey-related, but important. Lets say Germany is a key economy of Europe & centrum of industry. Switzerland is a land of finance. And Austria is a key player on gas market. Business of all 3 countries has a good relationship with Russia. It is not a coincidence Gazprom Export, led by the KHL former president, signed a partnership deal with Austria Vienna (soccer). And that the KHL has a exhibition games in Vienna and Zurich. If speaking about Germany, and it is not a suprise for anybody, according to latest census, the most people of Russian heritage live in Nordrhein Westfalen (DEL sides Dusseldorf and Kolner Haie), Baden Württemberg (Adler), Bayern (RB Munchen) and Berlin has some Russians as well. If the KHL goes to Germany, it should be one (or more) of those regions/clubs. Again, no suprise, all are key regions of german hockey. The ideal scenario would be Berlin + Munchen. We will see if anything happens.

St Peterburg. Yes, I would prefer non-RUS expansion. There is some logic in 2nd St Peterburg team. Current SKA arena will be without a tenant, the city is big, money are there. Higher development potential than some other regional Russian teams. And even if comparing to, lets say Riga/Slovan, the 2nd St Peterburg team would have higher potential. There are rumors VHL side Dynamo St Peterburg to join the KHL & Vityaz moving to the VHL. It is a bit complicated, but both clubs have the same backround. I would have no problem with the switch.

Rosen said a few days earlier that Swedes talk about the KHL but do not have enough informations. Of course, local media are heavy pro-NHL, journalists care about the NHL and SWE leagues, they do not have deep knowledge of the KHL. Then, a consumer (a fan) is on the same level. The KHL started to share more ENG infos, but still, there are much more deep informations written in Russian. For example, Slovak/Czech hockey journalists have little knowledge of the KHL. They know only what are said by news agencies. They do not speak Russian, they do not follow the league closely.

I do not think Lodnon and Paris are prefered destinations now. Epecially London.

The VHL. I do not think so. It is a problem of logistics and money. It is not easy to get to Russian small regions (the VHL cities). And there are no European clubs who could afford it, just to show the KHL they can join the elite league later. Donbass did it exactly like that, but it is special case due to CCCP history. It seems the VHL chose the Asian direction with the Silk Road League. I do not say the VHL would not accept an European club... btw,

 

[Albatros]

If the Russians want a team in Germany they'll have to start their own, the idea of a traditional DEL side joining the KHL is not at all realistic. Teams don't want that, fans don't want that, and the federation will not allow it either. The closest to it they might get is buying the Freezers name and starting a new KHL franchise in Hamburg, but they'd have to accept heavy financial losses and lackluster reception as facts of life.

 

[alko]

The KHL started to share more ENG infos, but still, there are much more deep informations written in Russian. For example, Slovak/Czech hockey journalists have little knowledge of the KHL.

I see a problem also on the KHL itself. They should, no , they must do something like NHL did. At least the official website in local languages. Or cooperate somehow with top ice-hockey portals Across Europe.

The world is as it is. Russian language isnt much supported language. KHL shouldn't take the way, that we could see somehow in politics. Something like: We are Russians, so you (ice-hockey fan) have be that one, that should be active. No, they should make it opposite. To be be the multi-country-friendly ice-hockey league in all aspects.

And other thing, that need to be worked on. Make the real statistics. Like NHL has. There could be so many articles written in this region. And the guy doesnt even have to be a russian spoken journalist.

 

[vorky]

If the Russians want a team in Germany they'll have to start their own, the idea of a traditional DEL side joining the KHL is not at all realistic. Teams don't want that, fans don't want that, and the federation will not allow it either. The closest to it they might get is buying the Freezers name and starting a new KHL franchise in Hamburg, but they'd have to accept heavy financial losses and lackluster reception as facts of life.

Yes, we have heard this many times. And yes, there is a logic there.

Be it classic club or brand new one, it should be located in those regions I mentioned. Because, there is a hockey team/tradition already. And, Germany has only appropriate hockey arenas in those regions (+Hamburg as you said). I counted Munchen too, because of a construction of a new arena. And yes, it would be a big problem to accomodate two teams (DEL/KHL) in one arena, especially if there are any other events. On the other hand, I do not see Russians to go to other cities.... better not to go at all.

Of course, I can be wrong. We will see.

 

[vorky]

I see a problem also on the KHL itself. They should, no , they must do something like NHL did. At least the official website in local languages. Or cooperate somehow with top ice-hockey portals Across Europe.

The world is as it is. Russian language isnt much supported language. KHL shouldn't take the way, that we could see somehow in politics. Something like: We are Russians, so you (ice-hockey fan) have be that one, that should be active. No, they should make it opposite. To be be the multi-country-friendly ice-hockey league in all aspects.

And other thing, that need to be worked on. Make the real statistics. Like NHL has. There could be so many articles written in this region. And the guy doesnt even have to be a russian spoken journalist.

Yes, there is much room for development.

There are many ways how to get informations, you do not need to be fluent in a language. It is a policy of media here. They choose KHL-negative stories over KHL-positive stories in principle. They do not even try to be neutral. That is a problem, not that there is little informations in ENG.

All informations about the KHL Club Rating and new strategy are available in English, on the KHL site & elsewhere. Still, Slovak hockey journalists have no clue... and even if write something, they do it with factual errors. How is it possible?

Another, Slovan´s Vienna games. Infomations available in English, and even German. But, Slovak journalist will write non-sense about it, with factual errors. Why? Because it fits his agenda? Because he is not professional?

Just an example, I will not go on.

To sum it up. There are informations in ENG. Yes, it could be better, but on the other hand, journalists need to be professional.

 

[Rigafan]

Very interresting, thank you for a great answer!

So you don´t think that the Baltic countries will get another team in the near future, to bad. I think that we be good for hockey development in those countries. But maybe in the next stage of KHL expansion phase.

From your answer I draw the conclusion that Germany and/or Switzerland is the most likely and also maybe most preferred. Two good choices imo, countries where hockey has the potential of growing. Would really like to see hockey improve in Germany.

A second team in St Peterburg has a meh feeling over it for me, when there is only a few spots open for expansion my opinion is that they should be used on foreign teams. But in a latter stage, a don´t have problem with another team in St Petersburg, especially since Moscow has three(four?).

Yeah, the crowns is a mess. The people behind the project were really naive I think, thought every would just fall into place and they are, in Sweden, deemed incompentent to run a club after their press conference in May -16. Won´t be a Crowns team in KHL.

Well currently, the fact is that "nobody cares in Sweden" or at least only a small minority cares. But that would certainly change if we got a team, but until then your average hockeyfan in Sweden won´t care. Somebody has to put a team here and first then the interest would come. Sportsfans in Sweden are VERY conservative and most changes in SHL are viewed with distrust.

What are the likelyhood of expanding to London or Paris? Two great european markets in big capitals of great countries.

Is it possible that teams from smaller countries will have to "settle" with joining the VHL and prove themselves there before joining the big league. An easier way in for teams which otherwise won´t be viewed as serious candidates as things stand currently.

Another problem with Germany and Swiss (mentioned in other messages too) is their leagues are profitable and stable - so why would Team A decide to pull out of such a safe space to risk going bust in the KHL. Where everything costs A LOT MORE without any Russian or other business backing? I'd love to see the KHL in Germany, as mentioned, it seems to make sense. Somebody should by the Freezers name and bring them back!

London has been mentioned and mentioned and rumours here and there. There is people, it seems, involved with bringing the KHL to London. There has been research done and cryptic messages on Linkdin but I think it would be a while before that happens. London has no hockey culture in the UK. Sure the City is huge and rich and full of Russians but they'd be better to say, buy a Northern UK team and put them in the league.

 

[Jussi]

Another problem with Germany and Swiss (mentioned in other messages too) is their leagues are profitable and stable - so why would Team A decide to pull out of such a safe space to risk going bust in the KHL. Where everything costs A LOT MORE without any Russian or other business backing? I'd love to see the KHL in Germany, as mentioned, it seems to make sense. Somebody should by the Freezers name and bring them back!

London has been mentioned and mentioned and rumours here and there. There is people, it seems, involved with bringing the KHL to London. There has been research done and cryptic messages on Linkdin but I think it would be a while before that happens. London has no hockey culture in the UK. Sure the City is huge and rich and full of Russians but they'd be better to say, buy a Northern UK team and put them in the league.

I can't imagine the German and Swiss clubs not knowing the financial situation of Jokerit, who are geographically at a better location and still make 10-14 million euro losses per season and their own CEO even admitting in public that "KHL isn't good business". Where as there might be more sponsors available, the sanctions still apply to them just like with Jokerit. They would need to find a Russian sugardaddy who would cover their losses and above all, not be on any sanctions list or potentially end up on them. Good luck finding one...

 

[ybnvs]

Funny to talk about KHL expansion when currently there are clubs which cannot even pay their players from last year's season.

I.E. - Vladivostok Admirals.

 

[alko]

Funny to talk about KHL expansion when currently there are clubs which cannot even pay their players from last year's season.

I.E. - Vladivostok Admirals.

Those clubs will be kicked out.

Anyway, is there any team in KHL, that makes a profit?

 

[hansomreiste]

I think KHL will do everything to ensure that Admiral stays. Without them, expansion to China would be meaningless as well. What's the point of having teams from Pacific when you kick Admiral and possibly even Amur? This is the problem with KHL now. We keep talking about expansion but this process takes quite a lot of time. At this stage, I'm OK with KHL managing to keep Riga, Slovan, Minsk and Jokerit in the league. No team is interested in joining this league and it has a hard time even keeping the ones it has in. In best case scenario, we'd see a new team in 2020/21 season.

Admiral has never been a significantly good team but they hold a symbolic value. Vladivostok is a very important city and they just built an arena to be in KHL. Kicking them out makes absolutely zero sense in terms of marketing but I get your point. In the end, KHL may have to do it regardless.

 

[Jussi]

Those clubs will be kicked out.

Anyway, is there any team in KHL, that makes a profit?

History has shown that those clubs suddenly, according to KHL, have cleared their payments, while in real life they have not.

No team makes profit in the KHL. Jokerit couldn't make profit if they sold out every home game (Talouselämä article from last year). Profit is a Western fantasy that has no place in providing circus for the masses, at least according to some people here.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Well, it's not like Admiral were a terrible team either until this point. It's just that their decision maker is an idiot at the moment but that might change.

 

[vorky]

Agree with @hansomreiste, the KHL will do everything to keep Admiral. And yes, a change of leadership is a possibility.

 

[vorky]

Timchenko confirmed the league will contract teams as planned. He said the league negotiates more or less concrete with a French side. The league would like to see a club from Germany, Switzerland and Austria.

If I remember, Austria has never been mentioned before. Only now. After the league has the regular season games in Vienna, Austria.

 

[Rcknrollkillnmachine]

If they plan a team in France then let it be from a hockey hot-bed and not Paris after their lame attendance and apathy to the Hockey World Championship last year.

 

[Rcknrollkillnmachine]

Also, which teams are likeliest to be dumped from the KHL. Surely not the eastern teams if they want to create decent rivalries there. Vityaz would be my bet as there are too many Moscow/Moscow Oblast teams already.

Still no word on that Uzbekistan team.

 

[vorky]

I would personally not go to France. Btw, there are rumors a French company to sponsor Slovan. Funny and interesting.

Vityaz & Severstal are clear candidates for a contraction. Should be. On the East, I can see only Neftekhimik to go. If we talk about arena, Torpedo is nr.1 to go, but they will do everything to keep them, due to a big city (5th in Russia).

 

[Toro2017]

The league would like to see a club from Germany, Switzerland and Austria.

If I remember, Austria has never been mentioned before. Only now. After the league has the regular season games in Vienna, Austria.

Well if they would get Red Bull to sign in, then they could get two teams. One from Germany and another from Austria (if local federations gives a green light ofcourse). Red Bull would also have enough money to fund one or even two competitive KHL teams.

 

[Albatros]

But why would they do that, considering that the German market is more important than the Russian market for the company?

 

[vorky]

Well if they would get Red Bull to sign in, then they could get two teams. One from Germany and another from Austria (if local federations gives a green light ofcourse). Red Bull would also have enough money to fund one or even two competitive KHL teams.

We will see.

Timchenko talked yesterday about the expansion, Medvedev today. New season starts soon, lets wait what Chernyshenko will say.

We would like to have a German, a Swiss and a Swedish club in the KHL. Generally, an opposition of the European hockey federations against the KHL, which we witnessed earlier, has been weakening by now. As Jokerit has showed, the Finnish league works as before even without one its club. Finns were insulted by Jokerit´s move at the beginning, they blocked Jokerit from participating at the Champions Hockey League. Look now, where is the Champions Hockey League? Who cares about the Champions Hockey League?

Alexander Medvedev