KHL Expansion Part VII

[Exarz]

Adding Dynamo St. Petersburg makes sense since they already have a good attendance at VHL level. Let them move into the Ice Palace when SKA is moving to the other arena.

And with AIK, they are really looking like a contender for SHL promotion this season, partly thanks to Törnqvist but also due to a rights issue made by the club to get extra money. So if they fail to get promoted within the next three years, the KHL could be a serious option

 

[vorky]

I don't know if it is relevant in this context, but apparently in Sweden SHL will get a new tv-deal for next season. Because of this the gap between SHL and Allsvenskan teams tv-money will increase and some of the Allsvenskan teams are very unhappy with the situation. Six of them declared last winter that they would withdraw from swedish hockey system if the situation will not be fixed somehow. AIK from Stockholm is one of those teams.

Yeap, I know about the tv deal. Is there any new development since January 2018?

We all remember similar situation with Elitserien clubs a few years ago. They wanted to create some new league and even negotiated with the KHL. Nothing happened. Who knows if anything will happen now. We will see.

 

[Toro2017]

Yeap, I know about the tv deal. Is there any new development since January 2018?

Well apparently swedish hockey federation have appointed Ola Lundberg to investigate the situation and he said april 18 on aftonbladet that SHL will never be closed. So that is the latest on the matter that I know of. I am from finland and even as we have to learn swedish in school, I can't read that article in swedish but have use google translator, so I might have got it wrong. But if he only says that SHL should stay open, but nothing else, then it might lead to same situation as in finland where Liiga is technically open, but it is very hard to get in.

 

[vorky]

Well apparently swedish hockey federation have appointed Ola Lundberg to investigate the situation and he said april 18 on aftonbladet that SHL will never be closed. So that is the latest on the matter that I know of. I am from finland and even as we have to learn swedish in school, I can't read that article in swedish but have use google translator, so I might have got it wrong. But if he only says that SHL should stay open, but nothing else, then it might lead to same situation as in finland where Liiga is technically open, but it is very hard to get in.

My understanding is that Lundberg´s report will be done later this year and Sweden will decide about the plan of development/changes next summer. That being said, AIK will definitely wait until next summer. If possible changes are not good for AIK, the club could consider the KHL´s option. If our speculation is true .... We will see.

 

[filip85]

I don't know if it is relevant in this context, but apparently in Sweden SHL will get a new tv-deal for next season. Because of this the gap between SHL and Allsvenskan teams tv-money will increase and some of the Allsvenskan teams are very unhappy with the situation. Six of them declared last winter that they would withdraw from swedish hockey system if the situation will not be fixed somehow. AIK from Stockholm is one of those teams.

I would swear I read maybe two seasons ago that SHL and Allsvenskan got pretty huge TV deals, SHL is around 4,5 million and Allsvenskan 800k...

 

[Jussi]

I would swear I read maybe two seasons ago that SHL and Allsvenskan got pretty huge TV deals, SHL is around 4,5 million and Allsvenskan 800k...

Yes, those are the new deals.

 

[Jussi]

Well apparently swedish hockey federation have appointed Ola Lundberg to investigate the situation and he said april 18 on aftonbladet that SHL will never be closed. So that is the latest on the matter that I know of. I am from finland and even as we have to learn swedish in school, I can't read that article in swedish but have use google translator, so I might have got it wrong. But if he only says that SHL should stay open, but nothing else, then it might lead to same situation as in finland where Liiga is technically open, but it is very hard to get in.

Well my Swedish is better (I watched a lot of SVT's Sportnytt when the Swedish channels were on free cable in the early 90's so I picked up a lot of the sports lingo) I guess but you got it right. He said any proposal for a closed league is off the table. He's going to give his findings to the hockey federation in November and they'll make a decision on the future of the leagues in July 2019.

The two polls at the bottom of the page have most voters favoring a 16 team SHL (over 4000 voters) and the return of the Kvalserien (over 3000 voters). IIRC, they got rid of it back in the day because it was harder for the smaller clubs to attract sponsors and sell season tickets due to the unceratainty of which level the team was going to play the following season. I know some fans in Finland (mostly at Jatkoaika would like 10+10 system for our league but I doubt they'd put such a system in place due to the problems they had in Sweden.

 

[Albatros]

In Finland they don't have more than 12 sufficiently decent teams anyway, going forward they'll have to admit that expanding to 15 was a huge mistake.

 

[Jonimaus]

Why would AIK even consider KHL looking at the mess that is Jokerit? (Not that AIK would even be able to join, so it's kind of irrelevant, but still).

 

[Exarz]

Why would AIK even consider KHL looking at the mess that is Jokerit? (Not that AIK would even be able to join, so it's kind of irrelevant, but still).

Exactly which mess are you referring to?

And well, the KHL has said that they are in talks with some Swedish club, and the only potential Swedish club I see is AIK, although it's almost impossible for them to join. I mean, they have Torbjörn Törnqvist who knows Gennadi Timchenko very well, it's the type of team the league wants because I doubt they would even consider creating a new franchise in Sweden after the Crowns fiasco

But then again, this is probably something that will not happen, it's just pure speculation

 

[vorky]

Exactly which mess are you referring to?

And well, the KHL has said that they are in talks with some Swedish club, and the only potential Swedish club I see is AIK, although it's almost impossible for them to join. I mean, they have Torbjörn Törnqvist who knows Gennadi Timchenko very well, it's the type of team the league wants because I doubt they would even consider creating a new franchise in Sweden after the Crowns fiasco

But then again, this is probably something that will not happen, it's just pure speculation

There are two important questions. 1. What is a role of Crowns? 2. Why did Törnqvist buy AIK?

If I know, Roman Rotenberg played for Jokerit as a child. Timchenko has had a business in Finland. The fact is that Jokerit joined the KHL.

It is a fact that Servette Geneve negotiated with the KHL. Gunvor (Törnqvist + Timchenko) has been a sponsor of Servette.

That being said, AIK speculation makes sense. Only, what disturb me, is the Crowns. What if the KHL tested the reactions by the press-conference? If you remember, the same game was played before Jokerit joined (Espoo rumors).

Germany is more believable than Sweden. We will see.

 

[Jonimaus]

Exactly which mess are you referring to?

And well, the KHL has said that they are in talks with some Swedish club, and the only potential Swedish club I see is AIK, although it's almost impossible for them to join. I mean, they have Torbjörn Törnqvist who knows Gennadi Timchenko very well, it's the type of team the league wants because I doubt they would even consider creating a new franchise in Sweden after the Crowns fiasco

But then again, this is probably something that will not happen, it's just pure speculation

Is it not true that Jokerit is losing an absurd amount of money each year, with owner problems?

 

[Jussi]

If I know, Roman Rotenberg played for Jokerit as a child.

Ron Howard voice: You don't. He didn't.

Karhu-Kissat junior team.

 

[Exarz]

Is it not true that Jokerit is losing an absurd amount of money each year, with owner problems?

Jokerit is losing about 10m€ per year, yes. However, since it's included in their budget and being covered by the owners, I wouldn't call it a "mess". They got their money, pay their players and continue their business. If the situation would be as with other KHL franchises with debts to players and economically strained, it would be different.

Sure, losing that amount of money is not optimal for any business in the long run but it's known that the league is working hard on cutting the expenses, which in my opinion is the main problem as of right now.

And what was your point about the owners? Rotenberg is not popular at all, but he's the one funding the team.

Jokerit has funding for at least 4 more KHL seasons, then we'll see what happens and which direction the league has taken.

 

[Exarz]

There are two important questions. 1. What is a role of Crowns? 2. Why did Törnqvist buy AIK?

If I know, Roman Rotenberg played for Jokerit as a child. Timchenko has had a business in Finland. The fact is that Jokerit joined the KHL.

It is a fact that Servette Geneve negotiated with the KHL. Gunvor (Törnqvist + Timchenko) has been a sponsor of Servette.

That being said, AIK speculation makes sense. Only, what disturb me, is the Crowns. What if the KHL tested the reactions by the press-conference? If you remember, the same game was played before Jokerit joined (Espoo rumors).

Germany is more believable than Sweden. We will see.

1. Crowns is pure garbage and has always been. I don't think that the league took them serious. This is just my speculation, but I think they used Crowns as a bait to get more media attention in Sweden and test the water.

2. Törnqvist bought AIK to save them from bankruptcy. He invested about 1.2m€ in the senior team and some hundred thousand euros per season in the junior teams. He was also involved in appointing the new board for the team but I don't think he's more active than that.

Isn't Timchenko the one funding Geneve-Servette's new arena? Shouldn't mean anything as Swiss teams literally got nothing to gain from joining the KHL. They already have great payrolls, a good league and the short distance travel. A German team is more likely, and hopefully next in line for an expansion team.

 

[vorky]

1. Crowns is pure garbage and has always been. I don't think that the league took them serious. This is just my speculation, but I think they used Crowns as a bait to get more media attention in Sweden and test the water.

2. Törnqvist bought AIK to save them from bankruptcy. He invested about 1.2m€ in the senior team and some hundred thousand euros per season in the junior teams. He was also involved in appointing the new board for the team but I don't think he's more active than that.

Isn't Timchenko the one funding Geneve-Servette's new arena? Shouldn't mean anything as Swiss teams literally got nothing to gain from joining the KHL. They already have great payrolls, a good league and the short distance travel. A German team is more likely, and hopefully next in line for an expansion team.

1. Agree with you. Based on opened sources, it should be like this. I still do not understand why they still exist in some form, not in Sweden, but still exist. You know, there have been many rumors of European expansion in the past. Ilves Tallin, Dusseldorf, Vilnius, Helvetics - just to name a few - but all are dead now, nobody is active today ... only Crowns are active. Why? Who is behind the Crowns? Can you look at Swedish register of companies to find out details?

2.Again, would be great to have an information from Swedish company register on AIK. I guess, Törnqvist does not have any official position (CEO or so). Who is AIK owner (ok, 51% is owned by "fans", who is the rest)? Is the minority owner the same as during negotiations with KHL back in 2009-10? I do not mean executives, but owner.

I do not know who finance the Servette´s new arena. And I doubt anybody confirms real investors ... the fact is that Servette is sponsored by Gunvor and negotiated with the KHL. My speculation, so please take it as a pure speculation ... if Timchenko co-finances the arena, why would he do it? Especially if we know the following scheme - acquire the team and arena (Jokerit + Hartwall) = joining the KHL. If I were Timchenko, I would do the same in Geneve. And if I remember, Törnqvist talked about new arena for AIK ... we do not know, just speculating ...

 

[Jonimaus]

1. Crowns is pure garbage and has always been. I don't think that the league took them serious. This is just my speculation, but I think they used Crowns as a bait to get more media attention in Sweden and test the water.

2. Törnqvist bought AIK to save them from bankruptcy. He invested about 1.2m€ in the senior team and some hundred thousand euros per season in the junior teams. He was also involved in appointing the new board for the team but I don't think he's more active than that.

Isn't Timchenko the one funding Geneve-Servette's new arena? Shouldn't mean anything as Swiss teams literally got nothing to gain from joining the KHL. They already have great payrolls, a good league and the short distance travel. A German team is more likely, and hopefully next in line for an expansion team.

A situation like that would 100% kill AIK. It is litterally impossible for them to survive in KHL losing money like that.

You can not bring in a russian owner expecting to cover.

 

[Exarz]

A situation like that would 100% kill AIK. It is litterally impossible for them to survive in KHL losing money like that.

That's why it's only a semi-realistic scenario if they got someone to cover the losses as with Jokerit. I am 100% certain that Törnqvist won't spend 10m€ per year on AIK to have them in KHL, so it has to be Russian money.

Would the league make it happen if AIK was serious about joining the KHL? Probably, but then again it's a long way there as it all depends on whether AIK gets promoted or not in the upcoming years. Then it's the future battle with the Swedish hockey federation

 

[Jonimaus]

That's why it's only a semi-realistic scenario if they got someone to cover the losses as with Jokerit. I am 100% certain that Törnqvist won't spend 10m€ per year on AIK to have them in KHL, so it has to be Russian money.

Would the league make it happen if AIK was serious about joining the KHL? Probably, but then again it's a long way there as it all depends on whether AIK gets promoted or not in the upcoming years. Then it's the future battle with the Swedish hockey federation

Let's say AIK joined KHL, with obviously some Russian paying for them. Where would the fans come from? AIK hockey does not have a lot of fans to begin with, and they sure as all that is holy would not attract a single outside fan, and with 99,9% certainty they would lose a big part of their current fans, because let's face it, no team in Sweden would be ok with Russian owners. The difference between KHL and SHL in terms of hockey quality (yeah they are currently in Allsvenskan) is not even close to big enough to make up for all the negatives. I am very sure that the whole thing would just become a massive joke with an empty arena.

 

[Exarz]

Let's say AIK joined KHL, with obviously some Russian paying for them. Where would the fans come from? AIK hockey does not have a lot of fans to begin with, and they sure as all that is holy would not attract a single outside fan, and with 99,9% certainty they would lose a big part of their current fans, because let's face it, no team in Sweden would be ok with Russian owners. The difference between KHL and SHL in terms of hockey quality (yeah they are currently in Allsvenskan) is not even close to big enough to make up for all the negatives. I am very sure that the whole thing would just become a massive joke with an empty arena.

Are you sure? Sure, Swedish hockey fans are very conservative, but I don't think I'm being that naive if they were to get a better attendance than they had in the SHL, especially if they were to be a top club in the KHL.

As I have stated before, it would make it a lot easier if they were to play in Solna (which will probably not happen now when they're renovating Globen), but having 6000-7000 is probably a reasonable attendance number. And with Russian ownership – it will probably be something like indirect Russian money/ownership but a Swedish owner, which would ease things up compared to direct Russian ownership or sponsorship.

 

[Jussi]

Are you sure? Sure, Swedish hockey fans are very conservative, but I don't think I'm being that naive if they were to get a better attendance than they had in the SHL, especially if they were to be a top club in the KHL.

As I have stated before, it would make it a lot easier if they were to play in Solna (which will probably not happen now when they're renovating Globen), but having 6000-7000 is probably a reasonable attendance number. And with Russian ownership – it will probably be something like indirect Russian money/ownership but a Swedish owner, which would ease things up compared to direct Russian ownership or sponsorship.

You're forgetting that Stockholm is a football city. They don't really care about hockey these days. Swedes also live even more than Finns on local rivalries. And no, Jokerit would not be "rival" for AIK because there isn't much rivalry in club hockey between Finland and Sweden as there is between national teams.

 

[Exarz]

You're forgetting that Stockholm is a football city. They don't really care about hockey these days. Swedes also live even more than Finns on local rivalries. And no, Jokerit would not be "rival" for AIK because there isn't much rivalry in club hockey between Finland and Sweden as there is between national teams.

No, I have that in consideration. Averaging 6000-7000 is pretty modest in the KHL for a bigger team but that's what you should expect when football is dominating Stockholm, plus that AIK Hockey's current geographical location is far away from their actual home. If it would've been the other way around (with hockey being far more popular in Stockholm) then both Djurgården and AIK would pull over 10k in average no matter where they played.

 

[Jonimaus]

No, I have that in consideration. Averaging 6000-7000 is pretty modest in the KHL for a bigger team but that's what you should expect when football is dominating Stockholm, plus that AIK Hockey's current geographical location is far away from their actual home. If it would've been the other way around (with hockey being far more popular in Stockholm) then both Djurgården and AIK would pull over 10k in average no matter where they played.

But neither Hockey, nor Russia nor KHL is popular in Stockholm, so it's more or less impossible for it to work out. The fans come when they are facing rivals, or big teams they don't like, like Leksand.
No team in KHL holds any value in Sweden. Yes, SKA is a great team, but that name holds 0 value over here, so it would not make people hyped. Litterally every single KHL team is a "no name" team in Sweden, and that includes Jokerit. There's no real rivalry between Swedish and Finnish teams outside of the national teams. If the Allsvenskan winners played the winners from Finlands football league, people would not go crazy "hell yeah we play Finland, rivalry!", that's just not how it works.

Who in their right mind would go to watch AIK play Severstal Tjerepovets, especially if the team would do poorly (as is almost guaranteed)?

 

[Albatros]

No, I have that in consideration. Averaging 6000-7000 is pretty modest in the KHL for a bigger team but that's what you should expect when football is dominating Stockholm, plus that AIK Hockey's current geographical location is far away from their actual home. If it would've been the other way around (with hockey being far more popular in Stockholm) then both Djurgården and AIK would pull over 10k in average no matter where they played.

AIK has called Hovet home since the early 1960s, it's way more established than any other location by now.

 

[Jussi]

Jokerit is losing about 10m€ per year, yes. However, since it's included in their budget and being covered by the owners, I wouldn't call it a "mess". They got their money, pay their players and continue their business. If the situation would be as with other KHL franchises with debts to players and economically strained, it would be different.

Sure, losing that amount of money is not optimal for any business in the long run but it's known that the league is working hard on cutting the expenses, which in my opinion is the main problem as of right now.

And what was your point about the owners? Rotenberg is not popular at all, but he's the one funding the team.

Jokerit has funding for at least 4 more KHL seasons, then we'll see what happens and which direction the league has taken.

Beyond financials, the state of Jokerit juniors ia mess of sorts. All the most talented kid leave after B-juniors either to other junior teams, other Liiga clubs or North American junior leagues because there's no clear path to the senior team and A.juniors have been a flaming turd for years.