TBN: KeyBank Center upgrades
- Thread starter Jacob582
- Start date
- Mar 10, 2012
- 4,838
- 2,598
Wasnt it the seating that needed the most urgent upgrade?
Jacob582
Registered User
- Oct 16, 2012
- 9,545
- 3,132
- Replace scoreboard summer of 2024
- Upgrade sound system and acoustic panels
- Replace roof
- In succeeding years address the seating bowl
- improve the pizza and beef on weck
- Add self-service technology at the concession stands
- institute in-seat ordering in the 200 level through a QR code
- Upgrade sound system and acoustic panels
- Replace roof
- In succeeding years address the seating bowl
- improve the pizza and beef on weck
- Add self-service technology at the concession stands
- institute in-seat ordering in the 200 level through a QR code
Last edited:
- Mar 10, 2012
- 4,838
- 2,598
Thx for the write up dont have a X account, and apparantly you cant read posts anymore.
HOOats
NO DOOM NO GLOOM
It was never going to happen with the timing of the Bills stadium, but KBC really needs to be replaced entirely. It's coming up on 30 years old and it wasn't particularly impressive when it was built. Concourses, suites, ingress and egress, etc it just isn't very good (I do love the sightlines). The advances in materials and construction technology since the 90's are hard to overstate and make buildings obsolete far earlier than some would think. Plenty of apartment buildings from that era are just being demolished these days and built from new because renovation isn't worth it.
In 5-10 years, even with these upgrades, it will be the worst arena in the NHL. And the investment planned means it's looking at another 20+ years of life. I loved going to the 50 year old Aud as a young kid, but I don't feel great about heading for another relic venue in my lifetime.
Plus, for all the consternation around not building a downtown football stadium that never made sense as $2 billion, dozen use per year venue, Buffalo could actually use a state-of-the-art indoor arena to host all-season events and anchor the future of lower downtown.
In 5-10 years, even with these upgrades, it will be the worst arena in the NHL. And the investment planned means it's looking at another 20+ years of life. I loved going to the 50 year old Aud as a young kid, but I don't feel great about heading for another relic venue in my lifetime.
Plus, for all the consternation around not building a downtown football stadium that never made sense as $2 billion, dozen use per year venue, Buffalo could actually use a state-of-the-art indoor arena to host all-season events and anchor the future of lower downtown.
Jacob582
Registered User
- Oct 16, 2012
- 9,545
- 3,132
It sounds like they will seek help from the county and state for that one.
Beerz
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2011
- 35,371
- 10,977
It does need to be replaced but I think that died as soon as they connected Harbor Center to it.
I suppose they could try to get their hands on the old HSBC Atrium building on the east side of it, raze it, and build anew.
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
Or go with the "Yotes Plan" and just play at HarborCenter while tearing down and rebuilding KBC.
HOOats
NO DOOM NO GLOOM
That's definitely a factor, but in 20-30 years when KBC is eventually replaced, the connection between the 1995-built building and the 2015-built building will be severed. The bridge between the two is an awesome amenity, but it's not going to be an eternal lifeline for KBC.
The one site that could allow us to have it both ways is current site of the HSBC Atrium building, recently purchased by Douglas. It's probably too nice of a building to demo for an arena, but it could connect to HarborCenter. Otherwise, the Cobblestone parking lots make the most sense for a new arena site. An added bonus would be opening up the KBC parcel for inclusion in Canalside, which would give space for a truly great park there and work well with DL&W (which is now up in the air with Savarino news).
Edit: Chain beat me to it.
Or go with the "Yotes Plan" and just play at HarborCenter while tearing down and rebuilding KBC.
I thought of that. With the number of foot dragging politicians and union bosses and petty shysters in WNY, I can't see them getting a stadium built on an aggressive timeline. The only nearby real estate would be the old Atrium building (don't know the name of it now) with it's basement issues because of whatever was dumped there that it is built atop or TBN's building kitty-corner to HarborCenter.
Or someone finally knocks the Skyway down and they build in part of the grounds of Canalside and that would kinda suck.
MOGlLNY
Registered User
- Jan 5, 2008
- 11,139
- 10,402
Thing needs to be blown to hell
KBC certainly isn't nice but it's a hell of a place to watch the game in terms of there's not really a bad seat in the house.
HOOats
NO DOOM NO GLOOM
Wanted to drag this over to the proper place and not jam up the roster thread.
$300M-$600M is definitely very high for an arena renovation, but KBC essentially needs to be remade from the guts to the roof so it's not impossible on the low end. It's why they should just build new ideally, as financially and politically untenable as that is.
PPG in Pittsburgh was $321M in 2008 dollars, $469M in 2024.
Prudential in NJ was $380M in 2005 dollars, $615M in 2024.
And those are just base inflation-adjusted figures, not accounting for drastic increases in specific materials and labor costs over the last five years.
More recently, Little Caesars in Detroit was $863M in 2015, $1.14B in 2024. Now that's a phenomenal building with no expense spared, we'll never get anything like that. But a realistic estimate for a new, average building here is $500M-$800M in today's dollars.
Last edited:
The Arena experience has never been a deciding point for me going or not going to a game.
The product on the ice has. Improve that first and then we can talk improvements to everything else.
The product on the ice has. Improve that first and then we can talk improvements to everything else.
- Aug 19, 2005
- 16,137
- 4,683
Nothing in the “new” arena has ever come close to replicating g the energy and excitement of a playoff game in the Aud. Damn I miss that place. Good times.
HOOats
NO DOOM NO GLOOM
Ha, as if its a choice between the two. What about, hear me out now... BOTH?
I still don't understand the KBC hate. I have seen NHL Hockey Games in the following:
The Aud
KeyBank Center
PNC Arena
The Spectrum
Wells Fargo Center
Joe Louis Arena
Little Caesar Arena
Capital Center
Capital One Arena
United Center
T-Mobile Arena
Maple Leafs Gardens
Philips Arena
Amalie Arena
Bridgestone Arena
I rank the experience at KeyBank Center as one of the better ones. In comparison to PNC Arena down here in NC, it doesn't have as many options for food and a lot more areas where there is nothing going on concession-wise, but the actual hockey viewing is as good if not better. The KBC scoreboard is fine and I imagine the new one will be as good as the one at PNC. Arena is in a better location in Buffalo, and every account says the locker rooms in Buffalo are much better than in Raleigh. Also, the backup goalie on the visiting team doesn't even sit in the same bench as the team - the sit on a chair across the rink. The fans are better in Buffalo when the Sabres are good. KBC feels more like a hockey barn than PNC.
Best arena now that I've experienced is Little Caesar - as long as you are NOT in the cheap seats - they are horrible. Worst is Capitol One Arena - you sit FAR from the ice.
I have no doubt they will put some money in KBC unless there is some crazy announcement they are building a new arena - but with HarborCenter, I'm not sure how that would work.
The Aud
KeyBank Center
PNC Arena
The Spectrum
Wells Fargo Center
Joe Louis Arena
Little Caesar Arena
Capital Center
Capital One Arena
United Center
T-Mobile Arena
Maple Leafs Gardens
Philips Arena
Amalie Arena
Bridgestone Arena
I rank the experience at KeyBank Center as one of the better ones. In comparison to PNC Arena down here in NC, it doesn't have as many options for food and a lot more areas where there is nothing going on concession-wise, but the actual hockey viewing is as good if not better. The KBC scoreboard is fine and I imagine the new one will be as good as the one at PNC. Arena is in a better location in Buffalo, and every account says the locker rooms in Buffalo are much better than in Raleigh. Also, the backup goalie on the visiting team doesn't even sit in the same bench as the team - the sit on a chair across the rink. The fans are better in Buffalo when the Sabres are good. KBC feels more like a hockey barn than PNC.
Best arena now that I've experienced is Little Caesar - as long as you are NOT in the cheap seats - they are horrible. Worst is Capitol One Arena - you sit FAR from the ice.
I have no doubt they will put some money in KBC unless there is some crazy announcement they are building a new arena - but with HarborCenter, I'm not sure how that would work.
Ha, as if its a choice between the two. What about, hear me out now... BOTH?
Did I say there was a choice? What I said was I don’t go to see the Sabres because of a kiss cam or out of city hot dog. Those things mean nothing to me. The Sabres and the game on the ice is the reason I go. The Aud was good. This arena is good. Upgrades or not.
beerme1
Registered User
- Jun 27, 2011
- 948
- 486
Sorry, this arena is not good. Sightlines are great. Every other aspect of the arena is a dump.
I agree with that I will go to a dump if the on ice product is good. I will tend to overlook everything wrong with the building. That's not where we are. It's been a long time and I'm starting to question the future long term.
The building is a dump. The team is a dump. I'm not sending my money down the river there anymore. 16 year season ticket holder that quit two years ago.
Figure it out Terry!! I want back in but will never consider it under the current circumstances. And if the plan is to take five years or more to renovate the dump? Fugghattabout it.
Jim Bob
RIP RJ
My $0.02 on the arena renovation priorities from a fan experience POV (i.e. fixing the roof is something you have to spend money on even though it does not really affect fan experience):
1) Replace the seats in the main bowl. The seats now are like those in the dollar movie theatre in Henrietta. That is not a compliment.
2a) Upgrade the scoreboard
2b) Upgrade the sound system
3) Do what you can to improve concessions
4) Update the visuals in the concourses to be up to date
1) Replace the seats in the main bowl. The seats now are like those in the dollar movie theatre in Henrietta. That is not a compliment.
2a) Upgrade the scoreboard
2b) Upgrade the sound system
3) Do what you can to improve concessions
4) Update the visuals in the concourses to be up to date
Bobby Bottle Service
Win for Rick
Since I have no problems spending other people's money, I'd like to see a new arena built with a better ice surface.
I remember complaints about the quality of the ice from day one. They brought in an expert from Edmonton as a consultant who found an unfix-able issue with the foundation.
One of the reasons (IMHO) that the Sabres play better on the road is superior ice conditions. That would be a huge difference for a skills based roster.
The flip-side is if the Sabres home ice is crappier than most, they should have constructed a roster to cope, or even take advantage of it.
All that being said, it's been about 10 years since I've been to KBC. Seemed fine from a fan perspective.
I remember complaints about the quality of the ice from day one. They brought in an expert from Edmonton as a consultant who found an unfix-able issue with the foundation.
One of the reasons (IMHO) that the Sabres play better on the road is superior ice conditions. That would be a huge difference for a skills based roster.
The flip-side is if the Sabres home ice is crappier than most, they should have constructed a roster to cope, or even take advantage of it.
All that being said, it's been about 10 years since I've been to KBC. Seemed fine from a fan perspective.
May Day 10
Registered User
How are people saying the sight lines in there are good? They are AWFUL! The grade of the seats is gradual. There are no overhangs. 80% of the seats in the 100 level have large swaths of the ice that are obstructed. 200s are great. 300 level is in a different zip code, especially as you approach the corners. Not only that, they crammed too many seats in there, so if you are in the corners, the seats are narrow and scrunched together.
Design firms have figured out now to bring seats closer to the field/ice and that seems to be a large part of the new Bills' stadium design.
I have been to several NHL arenas and the sight lines are so much better. Along with everything else.
That bubble roof sucks the life and noise right out of the place, as well as ruining the aesthetics of being in a hockey arena. The giant blue wall and duct work is also terrible-looking. There is zero character to the place, where they have been able to add/design character into most arenas.
Other than that, you have the tomb concourses still that went out of style starting in 1999. Especially in the 300 level.
Its a dump, and not even a cool, edgy, nostalgic, character dump that the Aud was or even Highmark Stadium is. It just sux. I liken it to the awful multi purpose baseball/football stadiums of the 70s like Three Rivers, Riverfront, Jack Murphy, and Veterans Stadium (ending with the Skydome).
It is an eyesore from the outside too
It in my opinion is the worst NHL arena I have been in, and the only one close is Washington, and they are either getting a new one or completely rebuilding the existing. Boston, Philly, Toronto, Montreal, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Carolina, and Tampa are laps of luxury that are not only nicer and more comfortable, they also have more character and resemble a hockey arena more (flat roof).
A new build needs to be considered by all parties. A vibrant arena could have a positive effect on downtown. Musical acts and things like that have started to bypass Buffalo more and more. Maybe even attach that to the long-wanted convention center dealie.
oh, just saw this released. Directly related to my rantings
Design firms have figured out now to bring seats closer to the field/ice and that seems to be a large part of the new Bills' stadium design.
I have been to several NHL arenas and the sight lines are so much better. Along with everything else.
That bubble roof sucks the life and noise right out of the place, as well as ruining the aesthetics of being in a hockey arena. The giant blue wall and duct work is also terrible-looking. There is zero character to the place, where they have been able to add/design character into most arenas.
Other than that, you have the tomb concourses still that went out of style starting in 1999. Especially in the 300 level.
Its a dump, and not even a cool, edgy, nostalgic, character dump that the Aud was or even Highmark Stadium is. It just sux. I liken it to the awful multi purpose baseball/football stadiums of the 70s like Three Rivers, Riverfront, Jack Murphy, and Veterans Stadium (ending with the Skydome).
It is an eyesore from the outside too
It in my opinion is the worst NHL arena I have been in, and the only one close is Washington, and they are either getting a new one or completely rebuilding the existing. Boston, Philly, Toronto, Montreal, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Carolina, and Tampa are laps of luxury that are not only nicer and more comfortable, they also have more character and resemble a hockey arena more (flat roof).
A new build needs to be considered by all parties. A vibrant arena could have a positive effect on downtown. Musical acts and things like that have started to bypass Buffalo more and more. Maybe even attach that to the long-wanted convention center dealie.
oh, just saw this released. Directly related to my rantings
Last edited:
BuffaloMango
Registered User
- Mar 14, 2023
- 249
- 258
I think Terry spends the contractual bare minimum on this project.
His mouthpiece already said that fans should not expect any of the new and impressive scoreboards recently put up. The BN cited the new $5M San Jose board as an example. As somebody who sells DVLED walls, the Sabres can get away with a far less dense pixel pitch (2.5mm) and save a ton of money. The current display is 10mm. Rule of thumb is about 10 feet per mm of pixel pitch. 2.5mm is something you could get away with in a college lecture hall.
I found the company/roof that did the original build. Grove Roofing installed a "Sarnafil PVC roof system" Fairly popular in warehousing, arena's, manufacturing, etc.
A quick google has installation cost at $4-12 per square foot. I went into google maps and measured around the arena with a wide birth and, rounding up the square footage was 180,000 square feet. Even increasing the install cost to $20 per square foot because it is a custom building the total is $3.6M.
I would not be shocked if Terry's out of pocket on this project is in the $10-15M or less range even though the arena could use a $150M+ renovation.
His mouthpiece already said that fans should not expect any of the new and impressive scoreboards recently put up. The BN cited the new $5M San Jose board as an example. As somebody who sells DVLED walls, the Sabres can get away with a far less dense pixel pitch (2.5mm) and save a ton of money. The current display is 10mm. Rule of thumb is about 10 feet per mm of pixel pitch. 2.5mm is something you could get away with in a college lecture hall.
I found the company/roof that did the original build. Grove Roofing installed a "Sarnafil PVC roof system" Fairly popular in warehousing, arena's, manufacturing, etc.
A quick google has installation cost at $4-12 per square foot. I went into google maps and measured around the arena with a wide birth and, rounding up the square footage was 180,000 square feet. Even increasing the install cost to $20 per square foot because it is a custom building the total is $3.6M.
I would not be shocked if Terry's out of pocket on this project is in the $10-15M or less range even though the arena could use a $150M+ renovation.
Last edited:
I'm fully expecting the billionaire to come to the local and state governments with his hand out amid rumors of relocation to push them into publicly funding more of the renovations than the community gets out of building. But that might just because that seems to be the usual course in these things.
