Kevin Hayes vs JT Miller

[SillyRabbit]

Miller doesn’t have to sustain his current level to be the better player.

He’s currently a PPG player. That’s significantly ahead of Hayes.

He could drop down to being a 65 point guy and still be better.

 

[MorgantiDrinksBlood]

Flyers fan Miller, pretty easily. Hayes is off to a slow start but he’s shown flashes and I believe he can be better than he has been offensively and overall. Time will tell. Both are good hockey players.

 

[Addison Rae]

Miller is way better

 

[CupsOverCash]

Miller is more skilled and brings everything that Hayes already does. Its Miller.

 

[ecemleafs]

As a ranger fan....I really liked both players. Didnt like Miller's playoff performances tho.

 

[Regal]

It's odd to me that Miller struggled so much in the playoffs in NY given what he's done in Van. He seems like the type who would be perfect for the playoffs

 

[Sky04]

It's odd to me that Miller struggled so much in the playoffs in NY given what he's done in Van. He seems like the type who would be perfect for the playoffs

I never really understood this, lots of people forget how young Miller was at the time, he was only 20-23 and his usage on those rosters was as a depth 2nd/3rd liner. There's really only 1 disappointing playoff run from Miller which was the 2016-2017 year, every other playoff run with the Rangers Miller's playoff PPG was higher than his regular season ppg.

His skillset has always been one that would peak later in his career because it's not speed based, which is why that contract is amazing, it'll cover his entire peak seasons from ages 25-30 without the down years. Its still laughable how many people (Rangers fans) called it a "horrible" contract.

 

[82Ninety42011]

I might be biased being a Canucks fan but Miller has been more then advertised and makes everyone he plays with better. Hayes maybe a great 3C but he makes an average 2C and Miller is definitely a first line player who does everything.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

It’s Miller time!

 

[stRANGERdanger]

Miller AINEC. Miss that son of a gun.

 

[BCNate]

I don't know how you don't take Miller. He is PPG and has been our best player this season. He drives our top line every bit as much as EP does.

 

[HyPnOtiK]

Miller can create offense, Hayes is a non-impact player.

Hayes definitely is better at creating offense.

 

[Aqualung]

Hayes definitely is better at creating offense.

Math checks out

 

[StoneHands]

I never really understood this, lots of people forget how young Miller was at the time, he was only 20-23 and his usage on those rosters was as a depth 2nd/3rd liner. There's really only 1 disappointing playoff run from Miller which was the 2016-2017 year, every other playoff run with the Rangers Miller's playoff PPG was higher than his regular season ppg.

His skillset has always been one that would peak later in his career because it's not speed based, which is why that contract is amazing, it'll cover his entire peak seasons from ages 25-30 without the down years. Its still laughable how many people (Rangers fans) called it a "horrible" contract.

Miller is a good player and I think he'll perform better in the playoffs in the future but he had 1 playoff goal in 40 games for the Rangers and that was in a 7-3 blowout. I think it's fair for them to criticize him a bit. I know he's not a goal scorer but 1 goal in 40 games is really bad no matter how you spin it.

 

[Eltuna]

Miller is having quite the year, that McDonagh trade is one of the most underrated bad trades of the past while. McDonagh will no doubt slow down (talking to Tampa fans he maybe already has) and that contract will probably haunt Tampa at some point but NYR traded a 1D with two years left at a sweetheart deal coming off of a 42 point season and added Miller to it (eventually got Tampa a 1st and a 3rd while Namestnikov got a 4th) and did not get much in return at all.

Tampa got the two best players to go for the cup and didn’t even lose much prospect capital depending on where Vancouvers eventual 1st lands, if that 1st ends up in the low-mid teens where I would guess it does next summer (if they don’t make the playoffs which they still may) Tampa may get the best prospect out of the trade as well.

 

[Lays]

Miller is having quite the year, that McDonagh trade is one of the most underrated bad trades of the past while. McDonagh will no doubt slow down (talking to Tampa fans he maybe already has) and that contract will probably haunt Tampa at some point but NYR traded a 1D with two years left at a sweetheart deal coming off of a 42 point season and added Miller to it (eventually got Tampa a 1st and a 3rd while Namestnikov got a 4th) and did not get much in return at all.

Tampa got the two best players to go for the cup and didn’t even lose much prospect capital depending on where Vancouvers eventual 1st lands, if that 1st ends up in the low-mid teens where I would guess it does next summer (if they don’t make the playoffs which they still may) Tampa may get the best prospect out of the trade as well.

Let’s not forget how Miller played in his last season with NYR. I used to really like Miller and he used to be a physical presence, in his last year his effort was embarrassing, like Justin Schultz in EDM type embarrassing. Also character problems were rumored to be the source of the trade and I’m also happy we didn’t give him that contract. I do think we could’ve gotten more for McD+Miller but Lundkvist, Hajek, Howden, Karl Henriksson (2nd round 2019) and a 3rd isn’t terrible, especially with the year Lundkvist is having

 

[Eltuna]

Let’s not forget how Miller played in his last season with NYR. I used to really like Miller and he used to be a physical presence, in his last year his effort was embarrassing, like Justin Schultz in EDM type embarrassing. Also character problems were rumored to be the source of the trade and I’m also happy we didn’t give him that contract. I do think we could’ve gotten more for McD+Miller but Lundkvist, Hajek, Howden, Karl Henriksson (2nd round 2019) and a 3rd isn’t terrible, especially with the year Lundkvist is having

It isn’t the worst trade ever but it’s definitely bad value for a 1D in his prime, especially since the 1st + 3rd eventually evened out with the Miller to Vancouver trade. Hajek, Howden, and Henrikkson are what’s left after the 1st and 3rds are taken out (and I would rather the Vancouver 1st for sure).

For example if Arizona traded OEL or Anaheim Lindholm right now for a few B prospects it would be pretty bad, McDonagh was only 28 when traded and had years left on a great contract I always thought Tampa should have had to include one of their top prospects (one of Foote, Raddysh, or Katchouk who at the time we’re pretty highly rated) or at least two hard 1sts since it’s obvious the picks would be low.

 

[JesterOnly]

Miller can create offense, Hayes is a non-impact player.

Nonsense. Miller is the higher upside offensive player and is most effective in a vacuum (as in, with bad linemates Miller would produce more than Hayes with bad linemates), but Hayes is the better defensive player and is certainly an impact player. Ignoring contracts, it's a coin flip for me, but my team needs defensive prowess more so I lean toward Hayes. If I am looking for top 6 offensive more than top 6 defense, I choose Miller. With contracts I take Miller. Hayes was the one major change for the Flyers this offseason, and they went from being one of the worst teams in the league on the PK to one of the best - that's pretty substantial evidence of Hayes' impact.

I'm also not sold that this year's Miller is sustainable. Both are 45-60point two-way forwards for their careers, and I would expect the same kind of pace moving forward. Miller is given favorable zone starts this year at 52.3 ozs%, though he has also been given more favorable zone starts in the past with little boost to his scoring (16-17 he had 43.7 ozs% and 56 points, 17-18 he had 56 ozs% and 58 points). Hayes has had unfavorable zone starts of 44.4 ozs%, and has shown that ozs% doesn't affect his scoring much as well (44 point on 42.7 ozs% in 16/17). The mark of a good two-way forward is overcoming zone start percentage disadvantages, and that anyone can put up near zeroes for corsi, fenwick, and around 100 pdo with 42.7 ozs% is incredible. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that Miller will be even a 55 fo% going forward from here, since he is in no way elite at faceoffs. His current face off % is 61.4 (career ~50), and 60% is in the Claude Giroux, Ryan O'Reilly, Patrice Bergeron, Sean Couturier "Best in the game" territory. Losing even losing those faceoffs to go back down to norm will decrease possession for the Canucks and lead to a decrease in points moving forward. Hayes is approx. 48% at faceoffs for his last few years, and is pretty much exactly there now.

I like Miller a lot, but 60+ face off % (career ~50) and some outlier numbers would indicate him slowing down from this pace. His ATOI increasing should have a lot to do with total numbers increasing, but I would think a slight increase from his 17/18 year (58points) would be expected and the norm for him. But who knows? Let's see if he has this other level and keeps it up.

 

[lawrence]

JT Millers been our best forward consistently.
Pettersson can generate offence in waives and he also probably has more scoring chances himself then Miller, but through a 60 minute game, Miller is the most consistent, in terms of puck entry, puck protection, (he doesn't get bounced off the puck as easily as bossier or Petey) he seems to have more drive too.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Let’s not forget how Miller played in his last season with NYR. I used to really like Miller and he used to be a physical presence, in his last year his effort was embarrassing, like Justin Schultz in EDM type embarrassing. Also character problems were rumored to be the source of the trade and I’m also happy we didn’t give him that contract. I do think we could’ve gotten more for McD+Miller but Lundkvist, Hajek, Howden, Karl Henriksson (2nd round 2019) and a 3rd isn’t terrible, especially with the year Lundkvist is having

Miller wasn't even playing that bad that last season. AV didn't want to coach him anymore, so at the last second he requested that Gorton trade him at the trade deadline.

We didn't need to give Miller a long-term deal. I would've much rather given Miller a bridge than given Namestnikov a bridge. I don't know how anyone could argue that part of the trade was good.

As to the McDonagh part of the return, in hindsight, it looks a little better this year because Lundkvist is playing really well. In foresight, it doesn't look too good. A late 1st, conditional late second, and two mid-level prospects is a lot of quantity, and very little quality. We should've requested Sergachyov or Foote. Instead, Gorton got Hajek, who we see sucks.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

As a Ranger fan who watched both these players for year...i'm really not sure how JT Miller is winning by so much.

 

[Bankerguy]

Miller is a beast.

Scores a ton, skates well, hits, awesome at defense, wins puck battles along the boards like there's no tomorrow and can play all three forward positions.

I know that he's really taken off this year and putting up a 70 point pace, but he's found his game and is a legit first line player.

Hayes, on the offense side of things is a 2nd line center...i think Miller should win this.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Miller has been Vancouver’s most consistent forward and makes every line he plays on better. He came much better than advertised. Adding a first line player has rippled right down the lineup as it allows other players to play where they should.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

As a Ranger fan who watched both these players for year...i'm really not sure how JT Miller is winning by so much.

Probably because most people don’t care how Miller played for the Rangers a few years ago.
Players change and mature. The poll is about the current Miller.
Tanner Pearson is another guy like that. He got traded twice last year and seems to have bounced back well as a top 6 guy. Sometimes it’s about opportunity and taking advantage of it when it arises.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Probably because most people don’t care how Miller played for the Rangers a few years ago.
Players change and mature. The poll is about the current Miller.
Tanner Pearson is another guy like that. He got traded twice last year and seems to have bounced back well as a top 6 guy. Sometimes it’s about opportunity and taking advantage of it when it arises.

But it was just last year he was still the same old Miller. So you are basing how great Miller has been and he must have turned a corner after just 40 games.

Yea, i'm still going with the much more proven Hayes for the time being.