Kessel - Interesting article...

[Will Hunting]

There's no rule that says that if you acquire futures in 1 trade, that you can't use those futures or others that you already had to trade for a win-now type player (cough *PMD*).

I get the Kessel point production but we need to recognize that this guy is a badly, badly flawed player in a lot of ways (defense, board play, receiving passes cleanly, slap shot). He's always walking a fine line between having his considerable negatives outweigh his considerable positives (amazing wrister, surprisingly great playmaking instincts, speed through the NZ). Even his vaunted role on the PP; last year was great but this year we're like in 10th place where we often are. Yeah, he accumulates points on it but it would be nice if we had a RHS that could actually one-time a puck, or who didn't struggle so badly in possessing the puck during zone entry.

Another thing is where he plays 5-on-5. Kessel-Malkin is a chance-generation machine for the other team at this point and must be separated at all costs. Him and Brassard never worked and Sid would prefer to play with skilled grinders. That leaves Sheahan, which...blech. When we babysat him with 2 smart, tough, defensively-sound players (Hagelin, Bonino), they made up for his shortcomings and let him shine.

I guess my overall point is that I think Kessel's value around the league is probably wildly different across various front offices. He inspires such strong opinions for and against that I have to believe a couple of Kessel-admirers are out there. If all they are willing to trade is a 1st and 2 3rds, fine! Again, there's no rule against using those assets or others to bring in a PMD later.

Well said. He is just not a good fit anymore, it seems. We also already have similarly flawed player, Evgeni Malkin (although better, but they are having very similar seasons and playing very similar hockey). Malkin as a 2C is a big need though, while with Kessel, nobody even knows where is his position in our lineup.. It has come to the point when the question about Kessel´s pluses and minuses is legit.

 

[theicebox]

Um... why don't we just trade Brassard? Kessel is good, he is not.

 

[Will Hunting]

Um... why don't we just trade Brassard? Kessel is good, he is not.

Depends on return. But yeah, of course Brassard sucks here and should be a priority to trade. Even ahead of Maatta. Kessel is questionable and it is worth discussing. Brassard needs to go. Now.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Well said. He is just not a good fit anymore, it seems. We also already have similarly flawed player, Evgeni Malkin (although better, but they are having very similar seasons and playing very similar hockey). Malkin as a 2C is a big need though, while with Kessel, nobody even knows where is his position in our lineup.. It has come to the point when the question about Kessel´s pluses and minuses is legit.

Yeah, and I feel like Malkin has a history of keeping his minuses (decision-making, stupid penalties, trying to do too much, lax defense) in check when it really counts. The other difference is that Malkin has the ability to be average - maybe even above-average - defensively. Whereas Kessel has no actual defensive or board play ability.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Jamie Oleksiak also produces. Just saying. We are winning without Kessel now. Or might as well say, despite Kessel, because he is more minus than plus these days. The thing is, there is no natural fit for him here 5 on 5, he struggles 5 on 5. He is definitely useful on the powerplay, but not some world beater. Jake Guentzel can do a solid job by replacing him there. Kessel is not a key for our success, nor is he playing like that. Also, he didn´t play well in last playoffs and he is not playing well now. PPG or not, he is not playing well. Sullivan is not an idiot in this case.

Yeah, Kris Letang "produced" 3G/8A in 12 games last postseason. What amazing production from a D spot, he was obviously our best player during those playoffs right?

 

[Peat]

He inspires such strong opinions for and against that I have to believe a couple of Kessel-admirers are out there. If all they are willing to trade is a 1st and 2 3rds, fine! Again, there's no rule against using those assets or others to bring in a PMD later.

That's really not fine. That's less than what Travis Hamonic received in trade. A return that is struggling to get a 2nd pairing dman would be a gross underpay and almost definitely makes this team worse, unless the pick is 3-5 at the very least.

 

[ChaosAgent]

That's really not fine. That's less than what Travis Hamonic received in trade. A return that is struggling to get a 2nd pairing dman would be a gross underpay and almost definitely makes this team worse, unless the pick is 3-5 at the very least.

How about the Jordan Staal package, then? Well-thought-of 3C, good D prospect and pick #8. I'll stake my ground right now that if we get an equivalent offer to that, we should take it (and no, I don't care that Sutter or Pouliot didn't pan out in that specific case).

 

[Tom Hanks]

Kessel is better for us on the 3rd line come playoffs so JR should be trying to acquire players that will suit him.

If it makes your team better sure trade Kessel but the odds on that are very slim. He can only be traded to 8 teams without his permission. He’s basically in control of where he plays.

 

[ColePens]

There's no rule that says that if you acquire futures in 1 trade, that you can't use those futures or others that you already had to trade for a win-now type player (cough *PMD*).

I get the Kessel point production but we need to recognize that this guy is a badly, badly flawed player in a lot of ways (defense, board play, receiving passes cleanly, slap shot). He's always walking a fine line between having his considerable negatives outweigh his considerable positives (amazing wrister, surprisingly great playmaking instincts, speed through the NZ). Even his vaunted role on the PP; last year was great but this year we're like in 10th place where we often are. Yeah, he accumulates points on it but it would be nice if we had a RHS that could actually one-time a puck, or who didn't struggle so badly in possessing the puck during zone entry.

Another thing is where he plays 5-on-5. Kessel-Malkin is a chance-generation machine for the other team at this point and must be separated at all costs. Him and Brassard never worked and Sid would prefer to play with skilled grinders. That leaves Sheahan, which...blech. When we babysat him with 2 smart, tough, defensively-sound players (Hagelin, Bonino), they made up for his shortcomings and let him shine.

I guess my overall point is that I think Kessel's value around the league is probably wildly different across various front offices. He inspires such strong opinions for and against that I have to believe a couple of Kessel-admirers are out there. If all they are willing to trade is a 1st and 2 3rds, fine! Again, there's no rule against using those assets or others to bring in a PMD later.

So you want to give up a 70-90 pt player for a new fun toy? Which new fun toy are we getting with these new picks?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Cole, this is what I said: "There's no rule that says that if you acquire futures in 1 trade, that you can't use those futures or others that you already had to trade for a win-now type player (cough *PMD*)."

And Kessel is a badly flawed 70-90 pt player who plays a high-risk game that very often benefits our opponents. I recognize him for being an incredible player in the 2016 playoffs and for being awesome again in the 2017 playoffs. But I'm sorry, points aren't everything and Kessel has a lot of deficiencies in his game that make it difficult for us to play him at 5-on-5 and have faith that we won't lose that shift. There's more to hockey than points. Also, who you playing him with? Kessel-Malkin again?

 

[Peat]

How about the Jordan Staal package, then? Well-thought-of 3C, good D prospect and pick #8. I'll stake my ground right now that if we get an equivalent offer to that, we should take it (and no, I don't care that Sutter or Pouliot didn't pan out in that specific case).

That's more reasonable, but still not great value. That's the price you get when you have to sell a great player, not the price you actually want. I'd still rather keep Kessel and that's despite agreeing with a lot of what you said. His strengths let him win games more or less single handed and that's worth more.

 

[ColePens]

Cole, this is what I said: "There's no rule that says that if you acquire futures in 1 trade, that you can't use those futures or others that you already had to trade for a win-now type player (cough *PMD*)."

And Kessel is a badly flawed 70-90 pt player who plays a high-risk game that very often benefits our opponents. I recognize him for being an incredible player in the 2016 playoffs and for being awesome again in the 2017 playoffs. But I'm sorry, points aren't everything and Kessel has a lot of deficiencies in his game that make it difficult for us to play him at 5-on-5 and have faith that we won't lose that shift. There's more to hockey than points. Also, who you playing him with? Kessel-Malkin again?

All I ask is that you have a valid plan for what we are going to do. There were few really good posters who came up with an idea of targeting guys like Hoffman/Skinner and then moving on from Kessel. Now THAT was something I at least felt was a valid discussion. Whether it was possible or not, is something we will never know. But that is the only thing I have seen from many many many posters bringing actual validity to the Kessel trade argument. Everything else has been "Move him! Maybe we can draft the next McDavid!" Ain't happening.

So what's the actual plan? I've already pointed out why Kessel is a tough player 5 on 5. He could drive coaches mad. But show me your plan.


And if it's Jordan Staal - i'm out.

 

[ChaosAgent]

All I ask is that you have a valid plan for what we are going to do. There were few really good posters who came up with an idea of targeting guys like Hoffman/Skinner and then moving on from Kessel. Now THAT was something I at least felt was a valid discussion. Whether it was possible or not, is something we will never know. But that is the only thing I have seen from many many many posters bringing actual validity to the Kessel trade argument. Everything else has been "Move him! Maybe we can draft the next McDavid!" Ain't happening.

So what's the actual plan? I've already pointed out why Kessel is a tough player 5 on 5. He could drive coaches mad. But show me your plan.


And if it's Jordan Staal - i'm out.

I'll take a top-4 D and a first round pick. I don't know exactly who those players are; I don't watch enough around the league to know who is available and stuff. Sorry. But if Phil Kessel is as good as you say he is, that package should be out there. Then put someone else like Guentzel on PP1, preferably someone who can one-time a puck, and watch their point totals magically rise.

Give Brassard an extended period of time with Geno - I don't really care who is the nominal C and nominal LW - and if that can't work, trade him too. We are badly deficient defensively and need the help there. Brassard is not great defensively, but he is not a liability like Kessel and clearly has a lot of skill that he hasn't tapped into while here (which, in fairness, most of that falls on him). However, I see Kessel as having a lot of value by points and "name"-enamored front offices whereas I don't think Brassard has a lot.

 

[ColePens]

And that's the thing @DocEmrickSkitters - you want Kessel moved for a top 4 dman + a first but you don't know who, what their cap hit is, if any NTC exists, length of contract, etc. Or is the guy left handed/right handed? Does he need powerplay time to be effective? Does he PK? Is he older? Is he younger?

All I ever ask is that someone comes up with a plan of what they want. I forget who it was in the offseason but they were bringing up some great ideas that involved Skinner/Hoffman. At least they had a plan and something that made sense. Just saying "top 4 dman and 1st round pick" isn't sufficient. Is Maatta a top 4 dman? Do we want another Maatta?

 

[ChaosAgent]

And that's the thing @DocEmrickSkitters - you want Kessel moved for a top 4 dman + a first but you don't know who, what their cap hit is, if any NTC exists, length of contract, etc. Or is the guy left handed/right handed? Does he need powerplay time to be effective? Does he PK? Is he older? Is he younger?

All I ever ask is that someone comes up with a plan of what they want. I forget who it was in the offseason but they were bringing up some great ideas that involved Skinner/Hoffman. At least they had a plan and something that made sense. Just saying "top 4 dman and 1st round pick" isn't sufficient. Is Maatta a top 4 dman? Do we want another Maatta?

If I decide I don't like my house and am going house-shopping, I don't know 100% the exact address that I'm going to buy. Doesn't mean I'm not justified in looking elsewhere.

OT, but not really: This board seems to overwhelmingly prefer the Steelers replace Tomlin but the name of the specific new hire is not given. So interesting that the standard for advocating trading Kessel is to need to scour the league in search of a trade but not that same standard there. Funny.

I would hope that our scouts, the people we pay for this stuff, would be able to identify when a nominal "top 4" defense-men is an abomination like Olli Maatta. But that is a fair point.

 

[Andy99]

Anyone thinking we can trade Kessel for a top 6 scorer like Hoffman or Skinner, or a legit top 4 RHD, are living under a rock...Phil would have been gone by now...the Pens have had feelers out to trade him for more than a year...that we all see he’s a great scorer but one dimensional player at least in the RS is the same thing other GMs see...that plus his NMC makes things tough...

but I think despite his scoring we need to part ways with him this summer and get younger...the plan to do so should be to open the vault for a big FA winger like Duchene, Stone etc and then trade Phil for picks and prospects..we will not get roster player value back for him...just my opinion

 

[Gurglesons]

Guentzel's a 24 year old who works better with Sid than any winger we've ever had, is arguably the clutchest player in the league, and currently on pace for 34 goals and 75 points. Bennett's on pace for 14 goals and 34 points, and Valimaki's a scratch ticket with 2 points in 22 games.

If we're still defending that proposal we don't have much of a shared reality to work with. It would make us a much worse team right now and for the forseeable future, which is exactly what the proposed Kessel deal would do.

When it's time for the cap crunch, Kessel shouldn't be moved unless he gets a great return. He's a bargain for what he brings. We have a lot of other players who aren't worth their dough who should get thrown overboard before Phil.

So if Jake is making close to 7 mil next year are you happy his level of player he’s shown this year?

I think I am, but he certainly has games that make me question him.

The Bennet +1st was an idea made when we had Sheary, Hornqvist, Kessel, Rust, and Wilson all as wingers with Sprong as a prospect. Now, it makes it much more difficult to move Jake and exist. In the summer of 16-17 the idea was to move out Jake and get a player that could slot into 3C and also a pick that would be able to play this year.

I know Boston fans didn’t like the Hamilton trade.

Tampa was so so on the Drouin trade.

Even Nash did the Jones for RyJo trade.

Sometimes you need to get worse to get better.

 

[Gurglesons]

Anyone thinking we can trade Kessel for someone a top 6 scorer like Hoffman or Skinner, or a legit top 4 RHD, are living under a rock...Phil would have been gone by now...the Pens have had feelers out to trade him for more than a year...that we all see he’s a great scorer but one dimensional player at least in the RS is the same thing other GMs see...that plus his his NMC makes things tough...

but I think despite his scoring we need to part ways with him this summer and get younger...the plan to do so should be to open the vault for a big FA winger like Duchene, Stone etc and then trade Phil for picks and prospects..we will not get roster player value back for him...just my opinion

I think you can move Kessel for a top four D or top six winger plus a solid 1st and then package that 1st to move up and get a Couture / Horvat level impact center.

 

[ChaosAgent]

So if Jake is making close to 7 mil next year are you happy with him?

I know Boston fans didn’t like the Hamilton trade.

Tampa was so so on the Drouin trade.

Even Nash did the Jones for RyJo trade.

Sometimes you need to get worse to get better.

This should come as no surprise given my limited posting history on this thread, but I'd rather trade Kessel than lose Jake 100/100 times. If you put Jake on PP1 and Phil on PP2, the "points" talk on Kessel would die down pretty fast.

 

[Andy99]

I think you can move Kessel for a top four D or top six winger plus a solid 1st and then package that 1st to move up and get a Couture / Horvat level impact center.

If they could get a 60-70 point winger or center for him, or top 4 RHD, PLUS a first, he would already be gone...people have unrealistic expectations of what roster players other GMs will give up for him...the returns offered weren’t good or it would have happened...but the Pens can make a deal for picks/prospects and make it contingent on them signing a player they like in FA...only way he gets moved imo...

 

[ChaosAgent]

If they could get a 60-70 point winger or center for him, or top 4 RHD, PLUS a first, he would already be gone...people have unrealistic expectations of what roster players other GMs will give up for him...the returns offered weren’t good or it would have happened...but the Pens can make a deal for picks/prospects and make it contingent on them signing a player they like in FA...only way he gets moved imo...

If that's true then you need to try to insulate him with 2 excellent defensive-forwards. You need basically '16 Hagelin to come along to ride alongside him and Sheahan. Maybe Brassard can be moved for that player?

 

[Tom Hanks]

Anyone thinking we can trade Kessel for someone a top 6 scorer like Hoffman or Skinner, or a legit top 4 RHD, are living under a rock...Phil would have been gone by now...the Pens have had feelers out to trade him for more than a year...that we all see he’s a great scorer but one dimensional player at least in the RS is the same thing other GMs see...that plus his his NMC makes things tough...

but I think despite his scoring we need to part ways with him this summer and get younger...the plan to do so should be to open the vault for a big FA winger like Duchene, Stone etc and then trade Phil for picks and prospects..we will not get roster player value back for him...just my opinion

Nashville has been interested in Phil a couple different times. I think the deal was based around Ekholm both times but never came to fruition (not sure the reasoning as to why).

 

[Gurglesons]

If they could get a 60-70 point winger or center for him, or top 4 RHD, PLUS a first, he would already be gone...people have unrealistic expectations of what roster players other GMs will give up for him...the returns offered weren’t good or it would have happened...but the Pens can make a deal for picks/prospects and make it contingent on them signing a player they like in FA...only way he gets moved imo...

I think you can get a defensemen like said Brodin and a 1st or Bjgustad and a 1st for Kessel.

 

[Andy99]

I think you can get a defensemen like said Brodin and a 1st or Bjgustad and a 1st for Kessel.

I imagine if those were the offers, he wouldn’t have been traded because Bjugstad has only one season of more than 40 points and Brodin is solid but not special....Phil is a special shooter and those are underwhelming deals.....that’s why I say, again, the team is better off signing a much better player in FA and taking a first and a good prospect for Phil...

 

[Andy99]

Nashville has been interested in Phil a couple different times. I think the deal was based around Ekholm both times but never came to fruition (not sure the reasoning as to why).

Probably because the deal from the Pens end wasn’t good enough...maybe Ekholm was the ask and not the offer...