kenny entering hhof this monday

[The Zetterberg Era]

Might be confused with Scotty.

I mean, Scotty did leave in like summer of 08 for Chicago.... before leaving them for retirement down the road from Yzerman in Tampa.

Must be just a co-incidence.

Probably is, the only stop where Bowman had full autonomy in a front office role was Buffalo, the only place he didn't win. Greatest coach by a substantial margin. But for those that love to champion Bowman in our build we went to a three headed system after the ill-fated Yzerman trade attempt to Ottawa. That is when Holland actually gains control and later gets the outright title from everything I have heard and yes that puts his true ascension to power around 95.

Happy to see him get this honor. Ken Holland is a top 10 GM of all time, really should cement top 5 with McDavid. He has a massive impact on the organization, thankful for all those years. If it cannot be us I will always pull for his team next.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Thanks for your service & support Kenny.

 

[deca guard]

WOW WHAT A STORY :

 

[deca guard]

 

[kliq]

I don't understand that when in light of that knowledge and objective he still did a terrible job how many trade, draft, and contract wins did he have over that lengthy time period. Sandbagging around lidstrom, daytsuk and Zetterberg could have been done by any GM and probably done better. If he did such a good job supporting his star players why did a likely HOF player even abandoned their contract to get out.

You completely ignored my main point. Hollands directive was to keep a sinking ship contenders with spare parts at a time where pretty much no UFA's (outside of Parise and Suter) hit free agency. His draft was actually quote good when you actually break it down. His first round picks were definitely not the best, but when you look at success rate of 1st rounders between 15-30, you dont have great odds to draft elite players.

The 2008 team was a great team, not sure why so many people rip the supporting case apart. Rafalski was a great D-man, Cleary was a steal, Stuart was a great trade, and Helm, Frazen, and Filp draft picks were steals. Not aquiring anyone? Lang was the top point producer in the NHL at the time he was acquired, I know he was gone by '08, but lets stop creating false narratives that he did nothing. I 100% acknowledge that once the window was shut (lets say when Lidstrom retired) almost every move he made until he moved Smith was terrible, but lets not let confirmation bias twist things into these false narratives. You can play this game with any GM. "Oh Yzerman did nothing in TB, he inherited Stamkos and Hedman, and Kutcherov and Point were lucky picks" see, it sounds dumb when you do with any GM.

 

[Retire91]

You completely ignored my main point. Hollands directive was to keep a sinking ship contenders with spare parts at a time where pretty much no UFA's (outside of Parise and Suter) hit free agency. His draft was actually quote good when you actually break it down. His first round picks were definitely not the best, but when you look at success rate of 1st rounders between 15-30, you dont have great odds to draft elite players.

The 2008 team was a great team, not sure why so many people rip the supporting case apart. Rafalski was a great D-man, Cleary was a steal, Stuart was a great trade, and Helm, Frazen, and Filp draft picks were steals. Not aquiring anyone? Lang was the top point producer in the NHL at the time he was acquired, I know he was gone by '08, but lets stop creating false narratives that he did nothing. I 100% acknowledge that once the window was shut (lets say when Lidstrom retired) almost every move he made until he moved Smith was terrible, but lets not let confirmation bias twist things into these false narratives. You can play this game with any GM. "Oh Yzerman did nothing in TB, he inherited Stamkos and Hedman, and Kutcherov and Point were lucky picks" see, it sounds dumb when you do with any GM.

Yzerman has a lengthy track record of building in TB, the Stamkos and Hedman argument has been killed to death. Holland was still GM for 10 years after 2008 and he wet the bed. Even if, and its speculative still, he was ordered to hold the line he barely even achieved a mediocre job at doing it parading a host of rentals, spent vets on one year deals, county club loyalty contracts, franchise crippling contracts, terrible draft record especially on D. That is a pretty damning second half for a HOF GM. Really what does he have to show for it, one second round appearance and Larkin and Mantha in 10 years? If Holland retired in 2008 he's HOF for sure, 2008 and after I think he walked himself back out.

 

[kliq]

Yzerman has a lengthy track record of building in TB, the Stamkos and Hedman argument has been killed to death. Holland was still GM for 10 years after 2008 and he wet the bed. Even if, and its speculative still, he was ordered to hold the line he barely even achieved a mediocre job at doing it parading a host of rentals, spent vets on one year deals, county club loyalty contracts, franchise crippling contracts, terrible draft record especially on D. That is a pretty damning second half for a HOF GM. Really what does he have to show for it, one second round appearance and Larkin and Mantha in 10 years? If Holland retired in 2008 he's HOF for sure, 2008 and after I think he walked himself back out.

You realize I used the Yzerman/TB argument to show that you can make any GM look bad using your logic of all great picks are lucky. The fact you are defending Yzerman when my point was not to actually criticize him just indicates to me that you aren't really reading what I am writing and are just shooting off anti Holland rhetoric. Obviously Yzerman did a great job in TB.

Holland did a great job in Detroit between 1998 and 2012 (roughly 14 years) arguably the best run a GM has ever had. I AGREE 2013-2016 was a shit show (roughly 4 years), after they lost out on Suter they should have re-built which he and JD wanted to. There were no moves to make at that point, but Illitch didnt want to do that.

2017-2019 (once the streak ended and Illitch passed away), I think he did good. He got a haul for Tatar and B. Smith, he traded away as many guys as he could, lets not forget the the Larkin and Mantha picks were steals for where they were taken in the 1st round (granted those were a few years earlier). I admit the Ras pick was questionable, at the time I wanted Vilardi, but if you look at that draft class, he is a top 7 guy from it. I think @Henkka had a pretty good break down of that draft class in another thread.

Bad contracts during a time period where they were forced to tread water really don't change a thing IMO. If Abby, Nielsen, E, and Helm dont sign, NOTHING changes. We're still a mediocre team that does nothing. Lack of D-men drafted, Ill give that one to you, but that doesnt change anything as far as his legacy. The Wings didnt have a bad team in those years, they lacked elite players which are very hard to acquire drafting in the middle of the 1st round during a time when nobody good goes to UFA. When a guy like Mike Green is was ranked #1 overall UFA, that speaks volumes.

You clearly have resentment towards Holland as you refuse to acknowledge a single point I make and just keep spouting off generic Holland rhetoric. I dont think any GM told to "win" in 2013 does anything with this team.

I admit Yzerman is a better fit for this team now, but Holland 100% deserves to be in the Hall.

 

[Retire91]

You realize I used the Yzerman/TB argument to show that you can make any GM look bad using your logic of all great picks are lucky. The fact you are defending Yzerman when my point was not to actually criticize him just indicates to me that you aren't really reading what I am writing and are just shooting off anti Holland rhetoric. Obviously Yzerman did a great job in TB.

Holland did a great job in Detroit between 1998 and 2012 (roughly 14 years) arguably the best run a GM has ever had. I AGREE 2013-2016 was a shit show (roughly 4 years), after they lost out on Suter they should have re-built which he and JD wanted to. There were no moves to make at that point, but Illitch didnt want to do that.

2017-2019 (once the streak ended and Illitch passed away), I think he did good. He got a haul for Tatar and B. Smith, he traded away as many guys as he could, lets not forget the the Larkin and Mantha picks were steals for where they were taken in the 1st round (granted those were a few years earlier). I admit the Ras pick was questionable, at the time I wanted Vilardi, but if you look at that draft class, he is a top 7 guy from it. I think @Henkka had a pretty good break down of that draft class in another thread.

Bad contracts during a time period where they were forced to tread water really don't change a thing IMO. If Abby, Nielsen, E, and Helm dont sign, NOTHING changes. We're still a mediocre team that does nothing. Lack of D-men drafted, Ill give that one to you, but that doesnt change anything as far as his legacy.

You clearly have resentment towards Holland as you refuse to acknowledge a single point I make and just keep spouting off generic Holland rhetoric. I dont think any GM told to "win" in 2013 does anything with this team.

I admit Yzerman is a better fit for this team now, but Holland 100% deserves to be in the Hall.

Yep this is the point where the argument takes second place to attacking the person because you don't like what you are facing. Yzerman left quite the track record in TB and left an incredible team to start here where he is doing an incredible job. Does anyone still bring up Headman and Stamkos? I thought that argument was in the cellar with the cob webs. You brought the argument up not me, and it has not only been debunked he has continued the show in Detroit. And lets not forget to add that it was Holland who blocked Yzerman's permotion to perpetuate his continued s**t show on the fan base.

Again leaning on the good times in Hollands track record while mitigating the s**t show he left with 'it wasn't his fault' and 'he didn't do all that bad'. I acknowledge Mantha and Larkin were great. Larkin is arguably a second line center though. He has been our first which because to Holland's credit the team doesn't have a legit first so Larkin filled in the gap. Mantha is more a top liner. Some other great picks like Nyquivst Tartar but lets remember the run of ties go to the veteran which kept more s**t show hockey on the airwaves for years. Where was the D though? And all of this over 10 years. 3 maybe 4 notable players added to the rebuild in 10 years and a string of wild card first round exits to show for sacrificing the rebuild? I'll give Holland his HOF performance in the years where he was handed a contender and asked to put it over the top. If you take 2008 Holland forward and made them a new GM to the NHL they wouldn't even be in the league anymore. They would be on in-between periods with Milbury. I would just like to see that acknowledged. That although he is now in the HOF which we all knew was going to happen, if there was a GM equivalent of a raspberry award he would also have that on his shelf.

 

[kliq]

Yep this is the point where the argument takes second place to attacking the person because you don't like what you are facing. Yzerman left quite the track record in TB and left an incredible team to start here where he is doing an incredible job. Does anyone still brinbg up Headman and Stamkos? I thought that argument was in the cellar with the cob webs. You brought the argument up not me, and it has not only been debunked he has continued the show in Detroit. And lets not forget to add that it was Holland who blocked Yzerman's permotion to perpetuate his continued s**t show on the fan base.

Please actually read what I write, or else there is no point debating. The Yzerman example was just to show that you can make any GM look like shit if you attribute all their success to luck. I dont actually think it, you do not need to defend him. I love Yzerman as a GM, he killed it on TB.

I'm not attacking you as a person, I have zero issue with you as a person. I'm sorry if something I said made you feel attacked, truthfully not my intention. I do think you have resentment towards Holland, but I dont think that is a personal attack, if you disagree, I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. Truly, I have no issue with you as a person.

Again leaning on the good times in Hollands track record while mitigating the s**t show he left with 'it wasn't his fault' and 'he didn't do all that bad'. I acknowledge Mantha and Larkin were great. Larkin is arguably a second line center though. He has been our first which because to Holland's credit the team doesn't have a legit first so Larkin filled in the gap. Mantha is more a top liner. Some other great picks like Nyquivst Tartar but lets remember the run of ties go to the veteran which kept more s**t show hockey on the airwaves for years. Where was the D though? And all of this over 10 years. 3 maybe 4 notable players added to the rebuild in 10 years and a string of wild card first round exits to show for sacrificing the rebuild? I'll give Holland his HOF performance in the years where he was handed a contender and asked to put it over the top.

I appreciate you being honest here with the Larkin, Mantha, Gus, Tatar picks, this is the kind of debate I enjoy, I didnt feel like I got that before.

When it comes to the overpaid vets, and lack of D. You're right. I can't debate that with you, because those were major faults in his run. I think there are two major points we disagree on.

You seem to marginalize his accomplishment in building the 2008 team. You make it sound like he got lucky with D and Z, and the rest was patch work. I think that 2008 team was his greatest feat. He did a re-build on the fly after Yzerman, Feds, Shanahan etc. all left, and won a cup through mainly draft while maintaining contender status the entire time (to be honest, probably why they tried it again).

You seem to place more blame on him then Illitch for the failed re-build on the fly attempt after Lidstrom left and they failed with Suter. If Illitch was inducted into the Hall today, would you say the same about him?

I 100% agree that Holland made bad moves in that 2013-2017 time period, everything you are saying is correct about the bad signings, but when you are given a shitty directive from ownership and all the available choices are Band-Aids, no move is going to work, he was asked to save a skinkin ship. I blame him for the individual moves (ie. Abby contract, Nielsen contract etc.) but I can't blame him for the direction of the team, I truly think any GM in that spot fails. The team had to re-build.

I just can't let those 4 bad years completely erase everything he did previously, if you can, then I guess to each their own.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Holland is a decent architect when he has unlimited resources to work with. He won the cup in 08 because he already had an all-star roster where salaries were automatically adjusted for the cap. He was, however, one of, if not the first, to figure out how to abuse the cap with long-term contracts. He also inherited an amazing roster from 97-2004, but he made some shrewd moves to flesh them out.

From 2009-2021 he is arguably one of the worst gms in the NHL

He is a hard guy to peg. Personally, I think he's massively overrated, but it's hard to find a definitive answer based on the circumstances around him and the team. Looking at the time when he was fully cut off from the period of infinite resources and advantageous scouting (2009-2019) he was godawful and somehow managed to make the wrong move almost every single time. It's a tale of two eras.

 

[Retire91]

Please actually read what I write, or else there is no point debating. The Yzerman example was just to show that you can make any GM look like shit if you attribute all their success to luck. I dont actually think it, you do not need to defend him. I love Yzerman as a GM, he killed it on TB.

I'm not attacking you as a person, I have zero issue with you as a person. I'm sorry if something I said made you feel attacked, truthfully not my intention. I do think you have resentment towards Holland, but I dont think that is a personal attack, if you disagree, I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. Truly, I have no issue with you as a person.



I appreciate you being honest here with the Larkin, Mantha, Gus, Tatar picks, this is the kind of debate I enjoy, I didnt feel like I got that before.

When it comes to the overpaid vets, and lack of D. You're right. I can't debate that with you, because those were major faults in his run. I think there are two major points we disagree on.

You seem to marginalize his accomplishment in building the 2008 team. You make it sound like he got lucky with D and Z, and the rest was patch work. I think that 2008 team was his greatest feat. He did a re-build on the fly after Yzerman, Feds, Shanahan etc. all left, and won a cup through mainly draft while maintaining contender status the entire time (to be honest, probably why they tried it again).

You seem to place more blame on him then Illitch for the failed re-build on the fly attempt after Lidstrom left and they failed with Suter. If Illitch was inducted into the Hall today, would you say the same about him?

I 100% agree that Holland made bad moves in that 2013-2017 time period, everything you are saying is correct about the bad signings, but when you are given a shitty directive from ownership and all the available choices are Band-Aids, no move is going to work, he was asked to save a skinkin ship. I blame him for the individual moves (ie. Abby contract, Nielsen contract etc.) but I can't blame him for the direction of the team, I truly think any GM in that spot fails. The team had to re-build.

I just can't let those 4 bad years completely erase everything he did previously, if you can, then I guess to each their own.

LOL sorry I think my passionate dislike for Holland makes me difficult to deal with at times. He is still rent free in my head because I see his finger prints and ramifications from his moves still with the team and the fan base although mostly fall'n off by now. HOF induction is a time to celebrate a person and I am just struggling with it after so many recent offseasons filled with WTF level frustration. You bring up a good point though, if Illich were to be inducted would I feel the same. I'll have to think on that. It's difficult to pinpoint the accuracy of how much of the streak was Illich and how much was Holland. I do carry Illich in high esteem because of the over the top ownership he displayed in making the wings a champ. But I also do hold some regretful feelings that his ego needed to push the wings to the point that the team set a new bottom in the modern NHL. I mean who cares about the streak now. We could have been in the McDavid sweepstakes if they rebuilt when it should have happened. Would I trade the streak for McDavid? There is not a measurement of time in existence that could track how quickly I could answer that. I feel like I put the fault on Holland maybe that is wrong but he is the face of the organization decisions, the place where the buck stops IMO. Isn't that the right place to put the blame? I guess the answer is I have feelings that I need to direct somewhere and Holland is the lightning rod. Fedorov didn't exactly light it up in his second half but he played a respectable game he wasn't like -20 with 5 goals all of a sudden after being a trophy player. It's just weird to me that Holland's tenure is only measured by his success. I self aware of the possibility and not opposed to being an outlier in a vacuum on these feelings. There real and I wonder if a life long fan willing to s**t post on a HOF induction thread speaks volumes to the possibility that something really happened here. Or I am just someone that doesn't know quite how to process something.

And to your point yes any GM can be painted in a bad light.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

I'm trying to remember the significant moves he made post-lockout.

Swapped Rafalski for Schneider, brought in Stuart, both of which were big moves for the Cup. But he also brought back Hasek, which was a mistake. I may be forgetting things but I don't think outside of that he had to do a lot of cap related moves from the lockout to the Cup win. Player's salaries were automatically knocked down post cap.

Up until 2009 he used to quote the "Patriots model" of "pay your star players, don't overpay for your role players". He was prepared to play good, young, cheap players. He surrounded them with veteran, cheap players. After 2009 he forgot it.

Thinking about the 08 team

Well paid star players drafted/scouted by Holland
Lidstrom
Datsyuk

Cheap youngsters drafted by Holland
Zetterberg
Kronwall
Hudler
Fillpula
Helm
Franzen
Lebda (college FA?)
Kopecky

Cheap vets acquired by various means
Draper
Maltby
McCarty
Drake
Chelios
Lilja
Cleary
Osgood
Hasek
Holmstrom
Samuelsson
Downey

Pushing out the boat to sign quality vets
Rafalski
Stuart

That teams window was 07-09.
07 was derailed by injuries and a great Ducks team
08 we were healthy and dominant
09 injuries and Bettman were too much to overcome.

After that, all our cheap youngsters needed to be paid, and all our cheap vets were retired or about to retire.

Edit: Oh, and binned off Dave Lewis after one season to bring in Babcock. And for as much as a psycho as Babs was, I still maintain that 08 Wings team is the best coached Detroit team I have ever seen.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Up until 2009 he used to quote the "Patriots model" of "pay your star players, don't overpay for your role players". He was prepared to play good, young, cheap players. He surrounded them with veteran, cheap players. After 2009 he forgot it.

Thinking about the 08 team

Well paid star players drafted/scouted by Holland
Lidstrom
Datsyuk

Cheap youngsters drafted by Holland
Zetterberg
Kronwall
Hudler
Fillpula
Helm
Franzen
Lebda (college FA?)
Kopecky

Cheap vets acquired by various means
Draper
Maltby
McCarty
Drake
Chelios
Lilja
Cleary
Osgood
Hasek
Holmstrom
Samuelsson
Downey

Pushing out the boat to sign quality vets
Rafalski
Stuart

That teams window was 07-09.
07 was derailed by injuries and a great Ducks team
08 we were healthy and dominant
09 injuries and Bettman were too much to overcome.

After that, all our cheap youngsters needed to be paid, and all our cheap vets were retired or about to retire.

Edit: Oh, and binned off Dave Lewis after one season to bring in Babcock. And for as much as a psycho as Babs was, I still maintain that 08 Wings team is the best coached Detroit team I have ever seen.

Good points.

And totally agree regarding the '08 team. That Wings team would close out games like I'd never seen.

 

[kliq]

LOL sorry I think my passionate dislike for Holland makes me difficult to deal with at times. He is still rent free in my head because I see his finger prints and ramifications from his moves still with the team and the fan base although mostly fall'n off by now. HOF induction is a time to celebrate a person and I am just struggling with it after so many recent offseasons filled with WTF level frustration. You bring up a good point though, if Illich were to be inducted would I feel the same. I'll have to think on that. It's difficult to pinpoint the accuracy of how much of the streak was Illich and how much was Holland. I do carry Illich in high esteem because of the over the top ownership he displayed in making the wings a champ. But I also do hold some regretful feelings that his ego needed to push the wings to the point that the team set a new bottom in the modern NHL. I mean who cares about the streak now. We could have been in the McDavid sweepstakes if they rebuilt when it should have happened. Would I trade the streak for McDavid? There is not a measurement of time in existence that could track how quickly I could answer that. I feel like I put the fault on Holland maybe that is wrong but he is the face of the organization decisions, the place where the buck stops IMO. Isn't that the right place to put the blame? I guess the answer is I have feelings that I need to direct somewhere and Holland is the lightning rod. Fedorov didn't exactly light it up in his second half but he played a respectable game he wasn't like -20 with 5 goals all of a sudden after being a trophy player. It's just weird to me that Holland's tenure is only measured by his success. I self aware of the possibility and not opposed to being an outlier in a vacuum on these feelings. There real and I wonder if a life long fan willing to s**t post on a HOF induction thread speaks volumes to the possibility that something really happened here. Or I am just someone that doesn't know quite how to process something.

And to your point yes any GM can be painted in a bad light.

It's impossible to know for sure the exact amount of power that Holland had. I put it on Illitch because of 3 things; the comment JD made about requesting a re-build, the fact that when Dave Dombrowski tried on the Tigers he was fired by Illitch, and pretty much right after Illitch passed away the re-build started.

With that said, regardless of direction he still did make bad moves including signing Abby to that absolutely ridicules contract. I cannot defend that, one of the worst contracts ever. Even in a world where you are told to win now, you don't sign that god awful thing. He barely moves the needle.

I guess I have a soft spot for guys like Illitch, Holland, Bowman etc. I grew up watching 4 teams, Jays, Wings, Lions, and as a teen the Raptors. I started watching sports in 1990, so with the exception of the Jays in 92 & 93, all my other teams were mediocre pretty much my entire life, none ever really had a shot to win the championship. The Wings were different, I was able to watch the Wings from when I was a kid until pretty much 2012 (and they gave us a run in 2013) thinking they had a chance to win it all every single year. Maybe some years I was naïve to think they had a chance, but I did and it made it awesome.

Now I dont credit Holland for all of that, but he was a major part of it, and I am thankful that he was able to provide me with that as I saw the other end of the coin with my other 3 teams. I totally get that things got bad, I can't deny that. However, what I got out of the Wings most of my life more then makes up for the bad. When I see Holland inducted, it feels like all those Wings teams once again getting their due as their architect is being honored for it. So when people bash Holland, it feels like they are bashing all those teams which does bother me.

All is good man, we're both passionate about the Wings which is a good thing! And agreed, they need to retire 91.

 

[Retire91]

It's impossible to know for sure the exact amount of power that Holland had. I put it on Illitch because of 3 things; the comment JD made about requesting a re-build, the fact that when Dave Dombrowski tried on the Tigers he was fired by Illitch, and pretty much right after Illitch passed away the re-build started.

With that said, regardless of direction he still did make bad moves including signing Abby to that absolutely ridicules contract. I cannot defend that, one of the worst contracts ever. Even in a world where you are told to win now, you don't sign that god awful thing. He barely moves the needle.

I guess I have a soft spot for guys like Illitch, Holland, Bowman etc. I grew up watching 4 teams, Jays, Wings, Lions, and as a teen the Raptors. I started watching sports in 1990, so with the exception of the Jays in 92 & 93, all my other teams were mediocre pretty much my entire life, none ever really had a shot to win the championship. The Wings were different, I was able to watch the Wings from when I was a kid until pretty much 2012 (and they gave us a run in 2013) thinking they had a chance to win it all every single year. Maybe some years I was naïve to think they had a chance, but I did and it made it awesome.

Now I dont credit Holland for all of that, but he was a major part of it, and I am thankful that he was able to provide me with that as I saw the other end of the coin with my other 3 teams. I totally get that things got bad, I can't deny that. However, what I got out of the Wings most of my life more then makes up for the bad. When I see Holland inducted, it feels like all those Wings teams once again getting their due as their architect is being honored for it. So when people bash Holland, it feels like they are bashing all those teams which does bother me.

All is good man, we're both passionate about the Wings which is a good thing! And agreed, they need to retire 91.

Yeah I can get that. I feel really good about the wings again and I can credit that to them making sense once again. Internet news, forums and even things like fantasy sports are like a golden age to be a sports fan. The level at which one can follow a team is off the charts now. It was difficult after those HOF rosters and then the resurgence of the team with an ageless Lidstrom along with Datsyuk and Zetterberg creating another contending cup window for back to back generations. Then the fan base caught fire once again with players like Jurco, Nyquivst, Tartar a 3rd generation was arriving only to find out, no room on the roster because we are signing, Cleary, Richards, Modano, Weiss? I am generalizing a lot there but it wasn't long before one could see the clear shift from prioritizing a third window, to just treading water. The hockey was no longer exciting because the cup threat wasn't real. We weren't a contender and we weren't on a path to be a contender. And once contract rules started forcing these new kids onto the roster we also found out these kids could not back the hype of their draft steal status anyway. Babcock rolled out season after season of real gud dump and chance grinder hockey with veteran wins the tie roster decisions. I think the Abby Datsyuk Cleary first line was the absolute peak. I can't remember how many times I saw an offsides call because Datsyuk stole the puck in the neutral zone and skated it back in to be called offsides because Cleary had f'n fallen in the zone and never came out. Or Datsyuk dishing off to hands of stone Abby who either fired it right into the team logo or missed the net all together. It was just painful to watch and it was during a time where little else was going right, after the 2008 global financial crisis the team seamed to follow life in general to the bottom. Every offseason was like is this. Could this be the season they finally, FINALLY rebuild? Nope, Rental, trade down, re-sign a 5 year grinder, sign a vet to the last year of their career. Retread repeat.

I guess I blamed Holland, and probably unfairly so. Who do I blame? Illich, Nah, how about I just face the truth that it was circumstance and that I wanted the wings to try and be great even if it meant we needed some down years to reload. Gosh that was painful and I just can't come to grips with it ever having been necessary. I definitely need to step off Holland's back though.

 

[kliq]

Yeah I can get that. I feel really good about the wings again and I can credit that to them making sense once again. Internet news, forums and even things like fantasy sports are like a golden age to be a sports fan. The level at which one can follow a team is off the charts now. It was difficult after those HOF rosters and then the resurgence of the team with an ageless Lidstrom along with Datsyuk and Zetterberg creating another contending cup window for back to back generations. Then the fan base caught fire once again with players like Jurco, Nyquivst, Tartar a 3rd generation was arriving only to find out, no room on the roster because we are signing, Cleary, Richards, Modano, Weiss? I am generalizing a lot there but it wasn't long before one could see the clear shift from prioritizing a third window, to just treading water. The hockey was no longer exciting because the cup threat wasn't real. We weren't a contender and we weren't on a path to be a contender. And once contract rules started forcing these new kids onto the roster we also found out these kids could not back the hype of their draft steal status anyway. Babcock rolled out season after season of real gud dump and chance grinder hockey with veteran wins the tie roster decisions. I think the Abby Datsyuk Cleary first line was the absolute peak. I can't remember how many times I saw an offsides call because Datsyuk stole the puck in the neutral zone and skated it back in to be called offsides because Cleary had f'n fallen in the zone and never came out. Or Datsyuk dishing off to hands of stone Abby who either fired it right into the team logo or missed the net all together. It was just painful to watch and it was during a time where little else was going right, after the 2008 global financial crisis the team seamed to follow life in general to the bottom. Every offseason was like is this. Could this be the season they finally, FINALLY rebuild? Nope, Rental, trade down, re-sign a 5 year grinder, sign a vet to the last year of their career. Retread repeat.

I guess I blamed Holland, and probably unfairly so. Who do I blame? Illich, Nah, how about I just face the truth that it was circumstance and that I wanted the wings to try and be great even if it meant we needed some down years to reload. Gosh that was painful and I just can't come to grips with it ever having been necessary. I definitely need to step off Holland's back though.

In all honesty, the blame is likely a “all of the above” type of situation, I guess the hard question is what % goes to who, and we’ll just never 100% know for sure.

 

[deca guard]

 

[abbbaron]

For those too lazy to watch the whole thing, a few snippets from his off-the-cuff induction speech:
"It's nice to see Nicklas Lidstrom here. Thanks again, Nick. You know, when you have possibly the greatest defenseman of all time playing nearly half the game for you, night in night out, that can cover up for a lot of your flubs as a GM-- and I mean A LOT!"

"I often get asked for career advice, almost as if these people aren't familiar with my body of work. Basically, let others do the surveying, architecting, building, all the little stuff. Your back-breaking contribution can be that of habitation...I suppose blank checks can help take some of the edge off. If uh, unlike me, you can just inherit well and fall forward, then do that instead!"

"Hockey has given me so much and that's why I've made it a priority to give back. One of the things I'm most proud of was being able to help feed the poor and downtrodden. On my watch, we were able to compel Arby's into changing their promotion so that, instead of only happening in the rare event of a hat trick, fans could get free curly fries in the slightly less rare occurrence of 3 goals scored by my whole damn team.
And, please, don't take that for granted: that was a hard-earned concession. I had to max out the salary cap in order to extend that benefit to the Red Wings' faithful."

 

[deca guard]

For those too lazy to watch the whole thing, a few snippets from his off-the-cuff induction speech:
"It's nice to see Nicklas Lidstrom here. Thanks again, Nick. You know, when you have possibly the greatest defenseman of all time playing nearly half the game for you, night in night out, that can cover up for a lot of your flubs as a GM-- and I mean A LOT!"

"I often get asked for career advice, almost as if these people aren't familiar with my body of work. Basically, let others do the surveying, architecting, building, all the little stuff. Your back-breaking contribution can be that of habitation...I suppose blank checks can help take some of the edge off. If uh, unlike me, you can just inherit well and fall forward, then do that instead!"

"Hockey has given me so much and that's why I've made it a priority to give back. One of the things I'm most proud of was being able to help feed the poor and downtrodden. On my watch, we were able to compel Arby's into changing their promotion so that, instead of only happening in the rare event of a hat trick, fans could get free curly fries in the slightly less rare occurrence of 3 goals scored by my whole damn team.
And, please, don't take that for granted: that was a hard-earned concession. I had to max out the salary cap in order to extend that benefit to the Red Wings' faithful."

what a very cool person kenny is ! i always have really liked k.h. the person , but have disagreed with alot of his moves . but weve all disagreed with alot of every gms moves as nobody has ever made every move perfectly as its a complicated job / process . and thing is i believe its like hes said all along he hires other people and lets them do their jobs such as nill drafting and mark howe pro scouting , meaning that i guess howe determined alot of the trades . and when there were cases where guys werent doing good at their jobs the mr ilitch outlook of loyalty to people prevented holland from firing people . obviously the loyalty factor has good and bad aspects to it , and its my veiwpoint that during the holland tenure nill was a problem as we struck out draft after draft . but thats nhl drafting , aint nobody good at it except a few aces which nill isnt one of and thusly should have been replaced long ago . anyway hollands wisdom and class make him a great communicator and manager of people and an organization which is of extreme importance in the job of being an nhl gm and kenny totally aced that aspect and kept everything held together for 20 years of being a competitive organization while racking up 4 stanleys which is obviously a great hall of fame accomplishment which us fans were lucky to observe ! and now ide like nothing better than seeing kenny going on a dynasty run with the oil , good luck kenny !

 

[Dotter]

Congrats Kenny. Very much deserved!

 

[deca guard]