Ken Holland

[ArGarBarGar]

No Stanley cups in 7 seasons, repeated early playoff exits, continually spends to the salary cap and has a lot of money tied up in players who are unlikely to play out their careers but also won't retire. The leash may be pretty damn long, but the last 7 season might be the end of it.

Dombrowski had 14 years, also.

 

[Retire91]

Who's Dombrowski?

 

[ricky0034]

Difference is Holland has three Stanley Cups as a GM. I would think that gives you a hell of a long leash in comparison.

plus Illitch badly wants the Tigers to win before he dies

not saying ownership doesn't care or anything like that,but I really doubt that sort of desperation is there when it comes to the Wings

 

[ap3x]

Who's Dombrowski?

If honest question: Ex-Tigers GM. If not: No one.

 

[detredWINgs]

I was higher on Fabbri, though I didn't think it was the end of the world. The more I looked him over and watched a few highlights and a game with the USMNTDP I decided there was a lot to his game. Was not sure where his offensive ceiling was but he had talent. I didn't think he was this guy though and cannot pretend I did. For the record Darren Helm with hands is a damn good hockey player, it was basically like saying imagine if Helm had some offensive ability and IQ... I also think it kind of undersold how much better Larkin was defensively in terms of positioning even if Helm gets lots of defensive credit. But basically putting hands and more IQ on Helm is a darn solid hockey player and top 6 guy, it is what holds Helm back.

Or they could have said a Ryan Kesler type and not freak people out with the comparison to Helm. The moment they mentioned Helm, that's what people heard and that's where the comparison ended, rightly or wrongly.

"Helm with hands" may be a "damn good hockey player", but thats not the type of description you give your fanbase regarding what is the highest draft pick in many fans lifetime. A Helm with hands is David Legwand. Its Mike Fisher. Its Bryan Smolinski. Good player? Sure. But its also the type of player that complements a contending core, not establishes it. It also makes it sound like that's where you're capping his ability - at a Helm with hands.

I agree with Winger in that they probably should've called him a "Kesler type" - although thats somewhat ironic now that Kesler is looking like he's petering out in the same Legwand-like way. But for a long time, "Kesler" invited thoughts of a two-way guy who could put up 70 points and be a 1B.

Anyways, this is all semantics. The bottom line is that Larkin was never a sexy pick so people weren't giong to jump up and down at the thought of it.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Hockey is much more different then baseball as well

You can go from cellar dweller to ws champs

In baseball it only takes a couple of years to rebuild. with some luck anyway. Look at Cubs.

In Hockey even if you do it right with luck it still takes a while. Not to mention parity. And winning games is mostly luck.

 

[Shaman464]

Hockey is much more different then baseball as well

You can go from cellar dweller to ws champs

In baseball it only takes a couple of years to rebuild. with some luck anyway. Look at Cubs.

In Hockey even if you do it right with luck it still takes a while. Not to mention parity. And winning games is mostly luck.

The Cubs aren't the best example, they weren't contenders 2 years ago and had a couple bad seasons. The biggest difference is the salary cap and it's a mixed blessing. Baseball you have a lot more money to spend, but hockey basically makes young players your slave until their late 20s with EL and RFA contracts. Holland knew that Lidstrom was getting old, any calendar could have told him that, and yet here we are without anyone near a #1 D-man and I would argue saying they have a #2 is a bit of a stretch. Holland has dropped the ball season in season out since 2009 and there is very little indication that there is a turn around in the near future.

 

[redwingsphan]

Hockey is much more different then baseball as well

You can go from cellar dweller to ws champs

In baseball it only takes a couple of years to rebuild. with some luck anyway. Look at Cubs.

In Hockey even if you do it right with luck it still takes a while. Not to mention parity. And winning games is mostly luck.

They big difference is there isn't a salary cap. The royals won in a small budget, but it has taken about 8 years for their prospects to turn out.

 

[redwingsphan]

The Cubs aren't the best example, they weren't contenders 2 years ago and had a couple bad seasons. The biggest difference is the salary cap and it's a mixed blessing. Baseball you have a lot more money to spend, but hockey basically makes young players your slave until their late 20s with EL and RFA contracts. Holland knew that Lidstrom was getting old, any calendar could have told him that, and yet here we are without anyone near a #1 D-man and I would argue saying they have a #2 is a bit of a stretch. Holland has dropped the ball season in season out since 2009 and there is very little indication that there is a turn around in the near future.

The a cap makes it even harder to acquire a true superstar in their prime. A team can't pay a guy 30 mil a year to come to their team. Holland has failed at one thing, finding that dman. It's his white whale.

 

[Claypool]

Holland has failed at one thing, finding that dman. It's his white whale.

I'll argue the only free agent defensemen that he lost out on that truly would have made a impact long-term was Suter. Maybe Burns, too, but not at the expense of the younger roster players. I'm personally happy with the Green signing and thankful he didn't go all in for guys like Niskanen, Bouwmeester, Stralman, etc.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I'll argue the only free agent defensemen that he lost out on that truly would have made a impact long-term was Suter. Maybe Burns, too, but not at the expense of the younger roster players. I'm personally happy with the Green signing and thankful he didn't go all in for guys like Niskanen, Bouwmeester, Stralman, etc.

strålman would be our best defenseman and would've been so for last year too.

 

[Frk It]

strålman would be our best defenseman and would've been so for last year too.

Sad, but true.

 

[Retire91]

If honest question: Ex-Tigers GM. If not: No one.

Thanks seriously had no idea, don't follow other sports.

 

[Pavels Dog]

strålman would be our best defenseman and would've been so for last year too.

Stralman apparently had no interest in coming to Detroit. I'd also add that I don't think he's better than Kronwall now or at any time in the past, but he'd definitely be a good #2.

 

[Elvis P]

Jiri Fischer, Niklas Kronwall, Jiri Hudler, Tomas Fleischmann, Jimmy Howard, Valtteri Filppula, Johan Franzen, Kyle Quincey, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Jonathan Ericsson, Brendan Smith, Gustav Nyquist, Calle Jarnkrok, Petr Mrazek, Riley Sheahan, Tomas Tatar, Tomas Jurco, Teemu Pulkkinen, Joakim Andersson, Xavier Ouellet, Marek Tvrdon

Holland has his haters, but he's drafted a few good players, especially from Europe.

 

[Frk It]

Holland has his haters, but he's drafted a few good players, especially from Europe.

You spelled Hakan wrong.

 

[Elvis P]

You spelled Hakan wrong.

No, I copied it.

 

[redwingsphan]

I'll argue the only free agent defensemen that he lost out on that truly would have made a impact long-term was Suter. Maybe Burns, too, but not at the expense of the younger roster players. I'm personally happy with the Green signing and thankful he didn't go all in for guys like Niskanen, Bouwmeester, Stralman, etc.

The only free agent guys I wanted were suter, stralman, and green.

Suter would have been great because we could have kept kronner on the second pair. But we still would have been devoid of any impact RHD. And with that cap hit we probably wouldn't have been able to acquire a proven one in FA. So had we been able to pull off stralman and green we would have probably been better off. But that's how she goes, boys.

What's really hurt is not being able to draft and develop one. Holland had tried though, and has drafted some guys who had good potential. But for whatever reason they haven't really panned out.

 

[redwingsphan]

Stralman apparently had no interest in coming to Detroit. I'd also add that I don't think he's better than Kronwall now or at any time in the past, but he'd definitely be a good #2.

I wonder if that's because holland compared him to kindl? Not his finest hour, for sure.

 

[Claypool]

Stralman is a nice #4 or #5. He'd be a short term band aide.

 

[redwingsphan]

Stralman is a nice #4 or #5. He'd be a short term band aide.

What? He's at least a #3. And I'd say he's be about the perfect guy to pair with kronner, DDK, or any good LHD. He is great at moving the puck and was relatively cheap in FA.

After looking at it, he was a steal in FA at a $4.5 cap hit. He might be the most underrated dman in the league.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Stralman is a nice #4 or #5. He'd be a short term band aide.

beyond ridiculous. based on what is he nice #4 or #5? green fits that much better than strålman.

i see no argument for him not being top pairing defenseman and i maintain he's been better than kronwall since 2014.

name 120 dman who are at least as good as him. heck, name 90.

there are only 2 dman (who were partners) since 2012 who have better goal differential than him and have played top4/top pair role. on shot differential, he's been even better, the best actually. best relative shot differential since 2012. if that guy is decent #4 or #5, we have maybe 2 NHL defenseman.

 

[redwingsphan]

beyond ridiculous. based on what is he nice #4 or #5? green fits that much better than strålman.

i see no argument for him not being top pairing defenseman and i maintain he's been better than kronwall since 2014.

name 120 dman who are at least as good as him. heck, name 90.

Hell, over the last 1-2 seasons name me 45.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Stralman apparently had no interest in coming to Detroit. I'd also add that I don't think he's better than Kronwall now or at any time in the past, but he'd definitely be a good #2.

If he'd make a good #2, what would that make Kronwall? Definitely not a number 1.

Stralman is a nice #4 or #5. He'd be a short term band aide.

 

[SirloinUB]

As I recall Stralman had absolutely no interest in coming to Detroit.

This is one of my frustrations with much of the Holland "hate". I think many fans have unrealistic expectations in regards to player acquisition. People keep pointing to the fact that Holland hasn't brought in an impact dman (maybe Green) since Rafalski. In reality this is not an easy task. Top 3 dman are rarely available and when they are they cost a premium. In reality it takes two parties to deal (whether that's FA or trading). Holland has been after every dman that has been available. For a variety of reasons the other party hasn't views Detroit as a fit. Trade costs have been steep and FAs have been few and far between. Don't forget there are 18 other teams looking for the exact same thing and it becomes insanely difficult to land that top end defencemen. Lastly we are looking for a very specific dman; right hand, an ability to play against top competition and an ability to consistently make a breakout pass. Considering this, like 75% (I'm just throwing a number out there lol) of the available dman don't even fit our needs.

I can recognize that this is a result driven business, and I'm not suggesting Holland should be free from criticism but fans often act like Holland hasn't even tried. When you guys criticize Holland, you completely disregard the challenges, competition and difficulty in acquiring that missing piece on the back end.