Ken Holland

[The Zetterberg Era]

I have to think they saw something in him, too. If they didn't, while we are real fortunate to have drafted him, the pick wouldn't have made much sense. I keep thinking there was a poster or two around here (maybe Zetterberg Era?) who was big on the Larkin pick, too. It's not like everyone hated it.

I was higher on Fabbri, though I didn't think it was the end of the world. The more I looked him over and watched a few highlights and a game with the USMNTDP I decided there was a lot to his game. Was not sure where his offensive ceiling was but he had talent. I didn't think he was this guy though and cannot pretend I did. For the record Darren Helm with hands is a damn good hockey player, it was basically like saying imagine if Helm had some offensive ability and IQ... I also think it kind of undersold how much better Larkin was defensively in terms of positioning even if Helm gets lots of defensive credit. But basically putting hands and more IQ on Helm is a darn solid hockey player and top 6 guy, it is what holds Helm back.

Thought he was a second line guy and was a good pick that could drive his own offense with his speed and had talent to finish. His line wasn't great and he produced a lot. Eichel caused him to fall. Had both Fabbri and Larkin way before Nylander for instance in that draft year.

Fabbri and Pulock were the guys I was truly salivating over in the Mantha and Larkin drafts... Absolutely prefer Larkin to Fabbri now, still wish Pulock would have fallen even if I remain a big Mantha supporter.

As usual in the Holland discussion I remain a supporter... I think the direction is back on the way up, loved the Green signing, we need to find another D-man obviously but we are improving back towards expectations. I wanted some movement this summer and he landed the best offensive D-man and he put a 19 year old that earned his job straight on the team. Think a significant trade is in the offing either at the deadline or more likely the draft this year.

 

[Winger98]

I was higher on Fabbri, though I didn't think it was the end of the world. The more I looked him over and watched a few highlights and a game with the USMNTDP I decided there was a lot to his game. Was not sure where his offensive ceiling was but he had talent. I didn't think he was this guy though and cannot pretend I did. For the record Darren Helm with hands is a damn good hockey player, it was basically like saying imagine if Helm had some offensive ability and IQ... I also think it kind of undersold how much better Larkin was defensively in terms of positioning even if Helm gets lots of defensive credit. But basically putting hands and more IQ on Helm is a darn solid hockey player and top 6 guy, it is what holds Helm back.

Thought he was a second line guy and was a good pick that could drive his own offense with his speed and had talent to finish. His line wasn't great and he produced a lot. Eichel caused him to fall. Had both Fabbri and Larkin way before Nylander for instance in that draft year.

Fabbri and Pulock were the guys I was truly salivating over in the Mantha and Larkin drafts... Absolutely prefer Larkin to Fabbri now, still wish Pulock would have fallen even if I remain a big Mantha supporter.

As usual in the Holland discussion I remain a supporter... I think the direction is back on the way up, loved the Green signing, we need to find another D-man obviously but we are improving back towards expectations. I wanted some movement this summer and he landed the best offensive D-man and he put a 19 year old that earned his job straight on the team. Think a significant trade is in the offing either at the deadline or more likely the draft this year.

Or they could have said a Ryan Kesler type and not freak people out with the comparison to Helm. The moment they mentioned Helm, that's what people heard and that's where the comparison ended, rightly or wrongly.

I'm lukewarm on Holland. I don't want him fired, but I think the Green signing was a few years too late, and he could still act a bit more decisively in clearing house on our blueline. I am confident in him drafting well, and re-building the club from within, but at this point I think that's what he needs to admit - that this is becoming closer to a straight rebuild than a retooling, or rebuilding on the fly, or whatever else. Because we're in the East, we can still contend and be dangerous in the playoffs, but it feels like a bit of a false hope to me, and it gets in the way of making some moves that might hurt more now, but at least carries the possibility of greater benefit down the road.

 

[Shaman464]

Or they could have said a Ryan Kesler type and not freak people out with the comparison to Helm. The moment they mentioned Helm, that's what people heard and that's where the comparison ended, rightly or wrongly.

I'm lukewarm on Holland. I don't want him fired, but I think the Green signing was a few years too late, and he could still act a bit more decisively in clearing house on our blueline. I am confident in him drafting well, and re-building the club from within, but at this point I think that's what he needs to admit - that this is becoming closer to a straight rebuild than a retooling, or rebuilding on the fly, or whatever else. Because we're in the East, we can still contend and be dangerous in the playoffs, but it feels like a bit of a false hope to me, and it gets in the way of making some moves that might hurt more now, but at least carries the possibility of greater benefit down the road.

Two years in the east and they have looked between meh and 'what's this team doing in the playoffs' in their two appearances. Without Mrazek last season Tampa would have finished Detroit in 5 games.

 

[Winger98]

Two years in the east and they have looked between meh and 'what's this team doing in the playoffs' in their two appearances. Without Mrazek last season Tampa would have finished Detroit in 5 games.

That's what great goalies do for you, though. How great would those Colorado teams have been if they ran into us every year without Roy back there? Or the Stars without Belfour? Could NYR be a serious threat if Lundquist wasn't there? Do you trust Montreal to be a threat in the playoffs if Price isn't playing?

And I think you're selling the Wings short in the Tampa series. They were in that thing for the whole series, regardless of whether or not you want to lay it at Mrazek's feet. And in the East, I think we can compete in any single series, but I doubt we can string several of them together. We're not a great team by any stretch, but neither is anyone else in this conference.

 

[Frk It]

I have to think they saw something in him, too. If they didn't, while we are real fortunate to have drafted him, the pick wouldn't have made much sense. I keep thinking there was a poster or two around here (maybe Zetterberg Era?) who was big on the Larkin pick, too. It's not like everyone hated it.

I think maybe Guru Meditation is who you are thinking of? I think maybe Newfy liked the pick too.

Can't remember, really. I know I liked Fabbri and Milano much better in that draft. I liked the Mantha pick much more than Larkin, which now looks hilarious. I loved Kerby Rychel in Mantha's draft class.

 

[Winger98]

I think maybe Guru Meditation is who you are thinking of? I think maybe Newfy liked the pick too.

Can't remember, really. I know I liked Fabbri and Milano much better in that draft. I liked the Mantha pick much more than Larkin, which now looks hilarious. I loved Kerby Rychel in Mantha's draft class.

Maybe. It's water under the bridge, but I know there are a couple of posters who could toot their horns about it a bit.

I can't get into the pre-draft stuff and maintain interest, so it's always like Christmas to me, except I end up online researching all of the gifts after they're opened.

 

[FlashyG]

I think maybe Guru Meditation is who you are thinking of? I think maybe Newfy liked the pick too.

Can't remember, really. I know I liked Fabbri and Milano much better in that draft. I liked the Mantha pick much more than Larkin, which now looks hilarious. I loved Kerby Rychel in Mantha's draft class.

Haha, yeah I'm reading the draft thread from that year right now. Octopus was one member who seemed really high on Larkin, and Guru Meditation mentioned him in the OP of the thread as a target for our pick.

Your response to Octopus is pretty funny in hindsight, but don't feel bad, I'm sure all of us have said similar things about other players in the past. I know I have.

There's at least 5 players Id want over Larkin.

It seemed most of our board wanted McCann, Fabbri or Scherbak

 

[Frk It]

Haha, yeah I'm reading the draft thread from that year right now. Octopus was one member who seemed really high on Larkin, and Guru Meditation mentioned him in the OP of the thread as a target for our pick.

Your response to Octopus is pretty funny in hindsight, but don't feel bad, I'm sure all of us have said similar things about other players in the past. I know I have.



It seemed most of our board wanted McCann, Fabbri or Scherbak

Yup, was way off on him. Thought he was a safe pick and would have never believed he had the upside he has shown since the day we drafted him. But here we are. Kid has knocked his development absolutely out of the park, and I like how he plays the game a lot.

I tend to go more for boom-or-bust and skill players who have some warts.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I think I only liked Gauthier over Mantha in the draft. But I really didnt follow hockey prospects that much. Probably would have chosen Mantha if the draft was this year.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Larkin was actually my secondary guy. I was super into Jared McCann, although he's not making me look too bad, either.

 

[TheMule93]

Last night I dreamed that we traded Datsyuk to Dallas at the trade deadline because we were pretty far out of a playoff spot. He scored a goal in his first game there.

I hope none of this happens irl. Pls no , Holland

 

[Winger98]

Last night I dreamed that we traded Datsyuk to Dallas at the trade deadline because we were pretty far out of a playoff spot. He scored a goal in his first game there.

I hope none of this happens irl. Pls no , Holland

Unless he wants to be moved. I can't really imagine him asking for a deal, but I wouldn't hold it against him at this point in his career.

 

[theYman]

I think everyone seems to forget we've been the most injured team through the first 1/4 of the season as well. We have the most man games lost of any team again. That might be playing a factor as well. Yes Holland has made some mistakes the last few seasons but it happens. And yes his lack of finding good puck movers is all on him.

 

[Dotter]

I think everyone seems to forget we've been the most injured team through the first 1/4 of the season as well. We have the most man games lost of any team again. That might be playing a factor as well. Yes Holland has made some mistakes the last few seasons but it happens. And yes his lack of finding good puck movers is all on him.

That's the problem... he found some that were way overpriced. And I mean OVERPRICED. And he found some that had no interest in coming to Detroit.

Is it Holland's fault the city is a mess?

Isn't part of good GMing being able to manage the cap and not trade important key assets like it would take to trade for some of these PMD he's kicked tires on, and "whiffed" out on. I mean at the end of the day, he didn't give away Larkin, Mrazek or the Tatar and Nyquist as two player package for some of these PMD he's blamed for not acquiring. You do realize to get JBo, they were asking for both Tatar and Nyquist +. Not just one or the other... but BOTH players and a plus+, right?

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I think maybe Guru Meditation is who you are thinking of? I think maybe Newfy liked the pick too.

Can't remember, really. I know I liked Fabbri and Milano much better in that draft. I liked the Mantha pick much more than Larkin, which now looks hilarious. I loved Kerby Rychel in Mantha's draft class.

I wanted Jared McCann, and then when he seemed to dip toward the late first round, I wanted to try and trade down and take McCann AND Barbashev. I wasn't upset like some people were when we took Larkin though. When I met him at the draft, he will really cool and nice, so I got behind the pick pretty quickly.

 

[Birko19]

I think most of us on this board were not that thrilled when we picked Larkin. For me personally I wanted Fabbri followed by Scherbak and McCann. The year we drafted Mantha I wanted Shinkaruk, but overall I was happy with Mantha. I think I'll learn to trust Detroit's scouting...

 

[Bench]

I wanted Jared McCann, and then when he seemed to dip toward the late first round, I wanted to try and trade down and take McCann AND Barbashev. I wasn't upset like some people were when we took Larkin though. When I met him at the draft, he will really cool and nice, so I got behind the pick pretty quickly.

Being the Kesler fan I am, remember drawing up the comparisons to him and Larkin right away and being a fan of the selection. I didn't follow the prospects that closely going into the draft, though, so it wasn't until the Detroit media was starting to buzz about Larkin going into the draft that it looked likely he'd be the selection if he was still available at that spot.

When you have a player that's fast, physical, can play center, is a local kid... I know you want the skilled player, but you can see how it was near impossible for the Wings to pass on that. Luckily he's more than a 3rd line grinder and I think they certainly saw that development path could happen for him. Holland and his team aren't perfect drafting, but they come out ahead more often than not with these types of picks.

The real missing piece from his resume is hitting on a defender that can lock up a top 2 spot.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Unless he wants to be moved. I can't really imagine him asking for a deal, but I wouldn't hold it against him at this point in his career.

He has a cup. 2 actually. He either goes to russia or just keeps playing in Detroit until he completely sucks

 

[theYman]

That's the problem... he found some that were way overpriced. And I mean OVERPRICED. And he found some that had no interest in coming to Detroit.

Is it Holland's fault the city is a mess?

Isn't part of good GMing being able to manage the cap and not trade important key assets like it would take to trade for some of these PMD he's kicked tires on, and "whiffed" out on. I mean at the end of the day, he didn't give away Larkin, Mrazek or the Tatar and Nyquist as two player package for some of these PMD he's blamed for not acquiring. You do realize to get JBo, they were asking for both Tatar and Nyquist +. Not just one or the other... but BOTH players and a plus+, right?

I probably would have done that for Brent Burns but not Jbo. I never wanted Jbo, in fact. Yeah he's a good puck mover but his offense is a bit lacking and he never seemed too physical either.

 

[Frk It]

Being the Kesler fan I am, remember drawing up the comparisons to him and Larkin right away and being a fan of the selection. I didn't follow the prospects that closely going into the draft, though, so it wasn't until the Detroit media was starting to buzz about Larkin going into the draft that it looked likely he'd be the selection if he was still available at that spot.

When you have a player that's fast, physical, can play center, is a local kid... I know you want the skilled player, but you can see how it was near impossible for the Wings to pass on that. Luckily he's more than a 3rd line grinder and I think they certainly saw that development path could happen for him. Holland and his team aren't perfect drafting, but they come out ahead more often than not with these types of picks.

The real missing piece from his resume is hitting on a defender that can lock up a top 2 spot.

Hell, when is the last time we drafted a defenseman that could even hold down a top 4 spot regularly?

 

[Retire91]

I think most of us on this board were not that thrilled when we picked Larkin. For me personally I wanted Fabbri followed by Scherbak and McCann. The year we drafted Mantha I wanted Shinkaruk, but overall I was happy with Mantha. I think I'll learn to trust Detroit's scouting...

Mantha and Shinkaruk by the numbers are not that far off in their development. I have not followed Shinkaruk lately so I don't know the eye test results but your scouting might not be as bad as you think. I think the size is a good fit for the wings though I don't know that we need yet another shifty 5'10'' something forward

Hell, when is the last time we drafted a defenseman that could even hold down a top 4 spot regularly?

Around 10 years ago?

 

[Shaman464]

Words about Dembrowski From Mr I that hopefully send a chill down Holland's spin:

Ilitch told reporters. “That’s all there was to it, because I didn’t win with him. We were close. He’s a great guy. But you know, there’s times you’ve got to change. If you’re not winning, you’ve got to change. So I made up my mind: I’ve got to change. So I called him and I told him like a gentleman.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Words about Dembrowski From Mr I that hopefully send a chill down Holland's spin:

Difference is Holland has three Stanley Cups as a GM. I would think that gives you a hell of a long leash in comparison.

 

[Shaman464]

Difference is Holland has three Stanley Cups as a GM. I would think that gives you a hell of a long leash in comparison.

No Stanley cups in 7 seasons, repeated early playoff exits, continually spends to the salary cap and has a lot of money tied up in players who are unlikely to play out their careers but also won't retire. The leash may be pretty damn long, but the last 7 season might be the end of it.

 

[Claypool]

No Stanley cups in 7 seasons, repeated early playoff exits, continually spends to the salary cap and has a lot of money tied up in players who are unlikely to play out their careers but also won't retire. The leash may be pretty damn long, but the last 7 season might be the end of it.

Holland will get an opportunity to reload the team. He's talked about the youth transition for several seasons now. If his plan fails then yes, he'll be fired.