Ken Holland

[Shaman464]

I think it's time to start a new discussion on Ken Holland. It seems that this is the year that Detroit is exposed. A lot of people are acting surprised that this team is being out shot, out worked, and out muscled every game, but after 7 years of Ken Holland complacency this was a long time coming. Is it time to fire Holland to show the players, the staff and the front office that being a competitor not a complacent team is what counts?

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[Bench]

It's going to take multiple years of truly bad results to put Holland's job at jeopardy. And by truly bad, I don't mean early playoff exits.

 

[Shaman464]

It's going to take multiple years of truly bad results to put Holland's job at jeopardy. And by truly bad, I don't mean early playoff exits.

I truly hope you're wrong. I am not saying that Holland should retire or anything. I think that like Babcock a change of scenery would be good for both the team and for him.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Is this a real thread?

 

[Actual Thought*]

I truly hope you're wrong. I am not saying that Holland should retire or anything. I think that like Babcock a change of scenery would be good for both the team and for him.

Apparently the universe is infinite. That means there are infinite possibilities. Holland being fired is not one of them.

 

[SoupGuru]

I truly hope you're wrong. I am not saying that Holland should retire or anything. I think that like Babcock a change of scenery would be good for both the team and for him.

Yes, the team is much much better without Babcock.

 

[Bench]

Is this a real thread?

How can this thread be real if our eyes aren't real?

But yes, it's a real thread about the general manager. The original post suggests Holland's performance demands change. While I agree it's a ridiculous notion to suggest Holland will move on or be fired anytime soon, I don't think the notion that his performance as a GM demands discussion. Good and bad.

So maybe that's what we could make this thread.

 

[Shaman464]

Is this a real thread?

Apparently the universe is infinite. That means there are infinite possibilities. Holland being fired is not one of them.

Yes, this team has regressed for over half a decade now, with no real answers coming from trade, free agency or from drafting. It's time to think that maybe it's the top brass that's failing not the players or the coaches.

 

[Bench]

Yes, the team is much much better without Babcock.

I think he meant that Babcock felt it was time for him to move on. And maybe a change to another franchise would reboot Ken Holland, much the way Babcock is tackling new challenges with a rebuilding franchise. It's an interesting thought experiment imagining Holland GM another franchise.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Yes, this team has regressed for over half a decade now, with no real answers coming from trade, free agency or from drafting. It's time to think that maybe it's the top brass that's failing not the players or the coaches.

So the players are succeeding, the coaches are succeeding, the GM is failing? That isn't even possible.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Yes, the team is much much better without Babcock.

Yeah that's really working out.

 

[Bench]

So the players are succeeding, the coaches are succeeding, the GM is failing? That isn't even possible.

Yes it is. If the players supplied by the GM aren't that good, it's totally possible. The players could reach their low potential, the coach could get the most out of them, and the GM would subsequently be at fault.

It would be like giving a jockey a donkey and yelling at both of them for not winning the race.

Ultimately I don't think it's that simple, though. We have players on this team that aren't meeting expectations, the new coach has yet to string together consistent offense, and the general manager has left a gaping hole on the blueline for years. You can't isolate and change one thing that would flip everything around. There's a synergistic relationship.

If I'm Ken Holland though, I look at the blueline and go from there. If you get the blueline to where you think it should be and things are still rough, then you start moving down the line of other potential issues.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Bad teams are going to be bad. As long as Holland doesn't do anything crazy, I think it's fine.

 

[Shaman464]

Yes, the team is much much better without Babcock.

Babcock and Holland seemed to have fundamental disagreements on how the team should be run. Babcock is definitely better off being where he can do a rebuild around his philosophy. As for Detroit? Who knows, this is Babcock and Holland's team, not Bashill's.

So the players are succeeding, the coaches are succeeding, the GM is failing? That isn't even possible.

For someone who calls themself 'Actual Thought' you seem to misconstrue what people are saying a lot. It's pretty obvious that you can have all the right people in an organization and if it's leadership at the top is ineffective that it can sink the rest of the organization. This team has a lot of good players, but players being brought in, those being retained, and those being drafted don't seem to point to a coherent plan coming from the front office. This team hasn't been able to address any of the major issues facing this team going forward: Lack of any defensive depth in the prospect pool, the lack of a elite defensive players, and lack of young center depth. Instead the team has thrown away prospects and picks for plugs. The only real strategy that Holland has shown is that he wants to continue the streak. Until Holland either rights the ship and commits to actually contending or he is gone this team shows no indication of contention in the near future.

So TLDR yes, you can't win a cup with a good coach and a good players if the management isn't able to address deficiencies and has shown a lack of a clear plan.

 

[sarcastro]

Is this a real thread?

Better question:

If 98% of all comments in all threads are about Topic X, is anything served by creating yet another Topic X thread?

 

[Shaman464]

Better question:

If 98% of all comments in all threads are about Topic X, is anything served by creating yet another Topic X thread?

Keeping other threads on topic instead of constantly being derailed by off topic posts?

 

[Actual Thought*]

Yes it is. If the players supplied by the GM aren't that good, it's totally possible. The players could reach their low potential, the coach could get the most out of them, and the GM would subsequently be at fault.

It would be like giving a jockey a donkey and yelling at both of them for not winning the race.

Ultimately I don't think it's that simple, though. We have players on this team that aren't meeting expectations, the new coach has yet to string together consistent offense, and the general manager has left a gaping hole on the blueline for years. You can't isolate and change one thing that would flip everything around. There's a synergistic relationship.

If I'm Ken Holland though, I look at the blueline and go from there. If you get the blueline to where you think it should be and things are still rough, then you start moving down the line of other potential issues.

If only we had a comparison to go off of as a base line

Babcock and Holland seemed to have fundamental disagreements on how the team should be run. Babcock is definitely better off being where he can do a rebuild around his philosophy. As for Detroit? Who knows, this is Babcock and Holland's team, not Bashill's.



For someone who calls themself 'Actual Thought' you seem to misconstrue what people are saying a lot. It's pretty obvious that you can have all the right people in an organization and if it's leadership at the top is ineffective that it can sink the rest of the organization. This team has a lot of good players, but players being brought in, those being retained, and those being drafted don't seem to point to a coherent plan coming from the front office. This team hasn't been able to address any of the major issues facing this team going forward: Lack of any defensive depth in the prospect pool, the lack of a elite defensive players, and lack of young center depth. Instead the team has thrown away prospects and picks for plugs. The only real strategy that Holland has shown is that he wants to continue the streak. Until Holland either rights the ship and commits to actually contending or he is gone this team shows no indication of contention in the near future.

So TLDR yes, you can't win a cup with a good coach and a good players if the management isn't able to address deficiencies and has shown a lack of a clear plan.

This is where I point out what Holland has done and you come back and say those players suck, first rd exits, ect... Your responses will most likely be condescending.

We now have an elite goalie prospect.
We now have an elite center prospect with elite speed.
We now have an elite right handed PMD.
We now have an elite shut down Dman who can put up a few points.
We now have 2 25+ goal 50pt+ wingers and a similar prospect.
We now have an elite shut down center
We now have a 20+ goal power forward
We now have a young top 6/9 center with size
We now have a young top 6/9 center prospect with elite speed and size.

All of these players added since 2011-12 season. I would call that significant progress on a team building process.

All of these players are playing at a level less than what they have played before with the exception of those who have no previous NHL experience.

 

[Dotter]

It's going to take multiple years of truly bad results to put Holland's job at jeopardy. And by truly bad, I don't mean early playoff exits.

I just don't understand what people want. Do they want Holland to tank for top 5 picks? Do they want him to trade the Larkin's of the world for a "playoff push"?

What do they want????

Ken Holland is guilty of building playoff teams and not drafting top 5 for three years straight.

When an impact player gets suspended that could be the difference in winning that game 7 against a team that goes to the finals, how is that Ken Holland's fault?

What I think is the true problem here is xBox. I think people here think you can simply trade those Andrej Nestrasil, Adam Almqvist + 4th round picks for those Drew Doughty's and Shea Weber's... and then those same kids get mad at Ken Holland when it doesn't happen.

Therefore, I blame xBox and PS4!

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I just don't understand what people want. Do they want Holland to tank for top 5 picks? Do they want him to trade the Larkin's of the world for a "playoff push"?

What do they want????

Ken Holland is guilty of building playoff teams and not drafting top 5 for three years straight.

When an impact player gets suspended that could be the difference in winning that game 7 against a team that goes to the finals, how is that Ken Holland's fault?

What I think is the true problem here is xBox. I think people here think you can simply trade those Andrej Nestrasil, Adam Almqvist + 4th round picks for those Drew Doughty's and Shea Weber's... and then those same kids get mad at Ken Holland when it doesn't happen.

Therefore, I blame xBox and PS4!

Holland needs to stop selling assets for useless pieces at the deadline. He needs to make actual roster player trades every now and then.(he hasn't traded an every day player in over a decade.). He needs to stop this country club mentality that we saw with Cleary and now see with Abdelkader.

His pro level moves have been more bad than good. It's a damn good thing he can draft or has a staff than can draft and develop, because otherwise, he would probably be gone.

Literally, off the top of my head. The only good things he's done since summer of '08 at the pro level were:
Re-sign Datsyuk(no brainer)
Re-sign his RFA's (no brainer)
Sign Alfredsson
Sign Dekeyser
Sign Brunner
And maybe sign Green(we will see)

Otherwise, his signings have been terrible. His trades have been terrible. His pro level GMing has been completely awful over the last 5 years.

 

[Hendricks433]

This is where I point out what Holland has done and you come back and say those players suck, first rd exits, ect... Your responses will most likely be condescending.

We now have an elite goalie prospect.
We now have an elite center prospect with elite speed.
We now have an elite right handed PMD.
We now have an elite shut down Dman who can put up a few points.
We now have 2 25+ goal 50pt+ wingers and a similar prospect.
We now have an elite shut down center
We now have a 20+ goal power forward
We now have a young top 6/9 center with size
We now have a young top 6/9 center prospect with elite speed and size.

All of these players added since 2011-12 season. I would call that significant progress on a team building process.

All of these players are playing at a level less than what they have played before with the exception of those who have no previous NHL experience.

Green is not elite and who is this elite shut down Dman that we have?

 

[Dotter]

Holland needs to stop selling assets for useless pieces at the deadline. He needs to make actual roster player trades every now and then.(he hasn't traded an every day player in over a decade.). He needs to stop this country club mentality that we saw with Cleary and now see with Abdelkader.

His pro level moves have been more bad than good. It's a damn good thing he can draft or has a staff than can draft and develop, because otherwise, he would probably be gone.

Literally, off the top of my head. The only good things he's done since summer of '08 at the pro level were:
Re-sign Datsyuk(no brainer)
Re-sign his RFA's (no brainer)
Sign Alfredsson
Sign Dekeyser
Sign Brunner
And maybe sign Green(we will see)

Otherwise, his signings have been terrible. His trades have been terrible. His pro level GMing has been completely awful over the last 5 years.

What assets? Undersized bottom players like Jarkrok, or the underachieving Janmark who both have little to no trade value?

Again I ask, do DRW fans want Holland to tank for top 5 picks or Do they want him to trade the Larkin's of the world to beef up the blueline with young top 2 talent?

Because, LOL, you're not getting young top 2 dmen talent for Jarnkrok and Janmark.

Interesting read... some Holland criticizer's weren't happy with the Larkin pick 15th overall.

Looks like Larkin has high value right now... Holland should trade him.

 

[Winger98]

What assets? Undersized bottom players like Jarkrok, or the underachieving Janmark who both have little to no trade value?

Again I ask, do DRW fans want Holland to tank for top 5 picks or Do they want him to trade the Larkin's of the world to beef up the blueline with young top 2 talent?

Because, LOL, you're not getting young top 2 dmen talent for Jarnkrok and Janmark.

Interesting read... some Holland criticizer's weren't happy with the Larkin pick 15th overall.

Looks like Larkin has high value right now... Holland should trade him.

When your organization describes your top pick, and the highest pick you've had in years, as Helm with better hands, yeah, it's gonna get people unhappy with the pick. Is there a worse way they could have described their pick? Maybe Glendening with better offensive instincts?

I'd like to see Holland move more aggressively to shore obvious deficiencies in the club - the blueline has been weak for years and still is weak as we rely continue to rely on Kindl/Smith/Ericsson to play (well) above their abilities - and to push harder to clearly define what we are as a team. But then I think our days of seriously contending for the cup with Z&D as our main cogs are over, which I doubt is shared by management.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Green is not elite and who is this elite shut down Dman that we have?

Green has had 2 seasons with 70+ points. He possess' elite talent.

Both of his NHL coaches have referred to Dekeyser as elite.

Holland needs to stop selling assets for useless pieces at the deadline. He needs to make actual roster player trades every now and then.(he hasn't traded an every day player in over a decade.). He needs to stop this country club mentality that we saw with Cleary and now see with Abdelkader.

His pro level moves have been more bad than good. It's a damn good thing he can draft or has a staff than can draft and develop, because otherwise, he would probably be gone.

Literally, off the top of my head. The only good things he's done since summer of '08 at the pro level were:
Re-sign Datsyuk(no brainer)
Re-sign his RFA's (no brainer)
Sign Alfredsson
Sign Dekeyser
Sign Brunner
And maybe sign Green(we will see)

Otherwise, his signings have been terrible. His trades have been terrible. His pro level GMing has been completely awful over the last 5 years.

Trading away scraps for playoff depth is not terrible. Blockbuster trades are a very, very rare thing in today's NHL. That isn't Holland's fault.

When your organization describes your top pick, and the highest pick you've had in years, as Helm with better hands, yeah, it's gonna get people unhappy with the pick. Is there a worse way they could have described their pick? Maybe Glendening with better offensive instincts?

I'd like to see Holland move more aggressively to shore obvious deficiencies in the club - the blueline has been weak for years and still is weak as we rely continue to rely on Kindl/Smith/Ericsson to play (well) above their abilities - and to push harder to clearly define what we are as a team. But then I think our days of seriously contending for the cup with Z&D as our main cogs are over, which I doubt is shared by management.

Should the organization described Larkin as the next Jonathon Toews? That seems to be setting the bar for the kid at a pretty ridiculous level. He has Helm like speed. He has Helm like tenacity. He has hands.

I think Blashill has closed the window on Pav and Z. Holland did hire him so he is responsible for that.

 

[TheMule93]

Should the organization described Larkin as the next Jonathon Toews? That seems to be setting the bar for the kid at a pretty ridiculous level. He has Helm like speed. He has Helm like tenacity. He has hands.

I think Blashill has closed the window on Pav and Z. Holland did hire him so he is responsible for that.

That's like signing Hasek again and saying we have the best goalie of all time, we should be fine with him!

 

[14ari13]

When your organization describes your top pick, and the highest pick you've had in years, as Helm with better hands, yeah, it's gonna get people unhappy with the pick. Is there a worse way they could have described their pick? Maybe Glendening with better offensive instincts?

I'd like to see Holland move more aggressively to shore obvious deficiencies in the club - the blueline has been weak for years and still is weak as we rely continue to rely on Kindl/Smith/Ericsson to play (well) above their abilities - and to push harder to clearly define what we are as a team. But then I think our days of seriously contending for the cup with Z&D as our main cogs are over, which I doubt is shared by management.

Maybe they thought they would do another push or another try with those 2.
We seemed to be heading fight and then adding Datsyuk would help, but we lost 2 games with Datsyuk back and scored only 3 goals in last 2 games, 4 in last 3, way too little.