Ken Holland has been rebuilding through the draft for nearly 15 years

[ArGarBarGar]

"Rely on grabbing free agents to turn the team into a contender" is a bad primary strategy.

 

[TheMule93]

He did chase a few big free agents and also had the bad luck of having his TOP players going down for extended periods of time with injuries they never fully recovered from. He kept the team competitive and tried to seize on opportunities that were available at the time. It didn't work and now that there's no solid longer a core to work with, he's rebuilding.

After the Hossa signing Holland did absolutely nothing to get this team back on top.

Pittsburgh wasn't going anywhere so they acquired Kessel. Tampa acquired McDonagh and are looking at Karlsson now. LA signed Carter. Toronto needs to get over the hump so they signed Tavares.

What did we do? We traded for Kyle quincey and brought back Samuelsson.

It's like Holland gave up after 09

 

[Shaman464]

As he explained during the final stages of the run many times. He was not going to trade draft picks or youth for short-term rentals. He was going to move younger players into the roster. Those younger players would have to continuously improve and get better while the vets had to remain at their level of play. Unfortunately, players like Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Mrazek and the trove of young defensemen in the system never took off. That's why the team is where they are. The only other option was to burn it down and trade everyone, which was never going to happen.

Then he was delusional, because he and a few of his slappies here, were the the only one who believe that any of those players listed would "take off". Since 2010 (and I am being generous) Detroit has been terrible at asset valuation and management. Its seems they believed their own hype about the infallibility of their drafting. That the next Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Lidstrom would be found without needing good picks. And in the end it has led to situation Detroit find itself in today. Also its a lie that Detroit didn't trade draft picks and youth towards the end. They traded for Cole and Zidlicky in 2015 when it was more than evident that Detroit wasn't going anywhere. It was only the last year of the streak that Holland made that decision and it was mostly fueled by the fact that Datsyuk was gone.

 

[Invictus12]

"Rely on grabbing free agents to turn the team into a contender" is a bad primary strategy.

Versus trading Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall while they're still top players in the league? Thats about the only way it works at the time going into full-rebuild mode. We didn't really have too many valuable pieces at the time. LOL, People here literally were screaming why Holland doesn't trade Kindl and a 3rd for a top pairing D-men. So, go ahead, lecture me on what were our options at the time! I actually would love to hear this.

 

[Invictus12]

After the Hossa signing Holland did absolutely nothing to get this team back on top.

Pittsburgh wasn't going anywhere so they acquired Kessel. Tampa acquired McDonagh and are looking at Karlsson now. LA signed Carter. Toronto needs to get over the hump so they signed Tavares.

What did we do? We traded for Kyle quincey and brought back Samuelsson.

It's like Holland gave up after 09

Yeah, those trades require to actually fall into your lap in order to be made. Think summer of 2001 and how we got Hasek. Just about the only sensible criticism I heard here was not trading for Burns when offered; though, I'm not even sure if true. Otherwise, please and tell me which trades were available for us to make that we didn't? We didn't go for Myers because we didn't want to give up Nyquist, Tatar or Sheahan. Thats about the only one in the period since Lidstrom hanged them up...
Look at the Mantha trade proposal...How many would be against moving him for Parayko...
Otherwise, what were the pieces were we going to give up and for whom?

 

[Claypool]

Then he was delusional, because he and a few of his slappies here, were the the only one who believe that any of those players listed would "take off". Since 2010 (and I am being generous) Detroit has been terrible at asset valuation and management. Its seems they believed their own hype about the infallibility of their drafting. That the next Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Lidstrom would be found without needing good picks. And in the end it has led to situation Detroit find itself in today. Also its a lie that Detroit didn't trade draft picks and youth towards the end. They traded for Cole and Zidlicky in 2015 when it was more than evident that Detroit wasn't going anywhere. It was only the last year of the streak that Holland made that decision and it was mostly fueled by the fact that Datsyuk was gone.

At the time of the Zidlicky and Cole deals the Red Wings were 35-15-11 and were in the top 10 across the league in goals against per game, shots against per game and the penalty kill. They barely traded any noteworthy assets that year. Why people continue to harp on these two deals is beyond me. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Shaman464]

At the time of the Zidlicky and Cole deals the Red Wings were 35-15-11 and were in the top 10 across the league in goals against per game, shots against per game and the penalty kill. They barely traded any noteworthy assets that year. Why people continue to harp on these two deals is beyond me. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Except they traded away assets you claimed that Detroit hadn't traded away. So there's that. Second for all those great stats you posted, they were 6th in the conference, 10 points behind the top team in the Atlantic, 8 behind the second team, and only 4 points above Boston who didn't make it. They also had the second worst GA of any team that made it and 3rd worst GF. So they weren't exactly world burning, and have come off of multiple years of mediocrity. Basically every expert agreed that the team wasn't a couple tweaks away from contending, and worse they traded for a guy with a history of major injuries, who guess what? Had a major injury that ended his career. So you can use whatever stats you want, in the end Detroit was still a bubble team when the season ended, and was still first round fodder. And by the next season the bottom started to fall out and they only made it by the skin of their teeth.

 

[Invictus12]

Except they traded away assets you claimed that Detroit hadn't traded away. So there's that. Second for all those great stats you posted, they were 6th in the conference, 10 points behind the top team in the Atlantic, 8 behind the second team, and only 4 points above Boston who didn't make it. They also had the second worst GA of any team that made it and 3rd worst GF. So they weren't exactly world burning, and have come off of multiple years of mediocrity. Basically every expert agreed that the team wasn't a couple tweaks away from contending, and worse they traded for a guy with a history of major injuries, who guess what? Had a major injury that ended his career. So you can use whatever stats you want, in the end Detroit was still a bubble team when the season ended, and was still first round fodder. And by the next season the bottom started to fall out and they only made it by the skin of their teeth.

Which 'experts' were those exactly? Oh and just for clarification. which season are you referring to?

 

[Claypool]

Except they traded away assets you claimed that Detroit hadn't traded away. So there's that. Second for all those great stats you posted, they were 6th in the conference, 10 points behind the top team in the Atlantic, 8 behind the second team, and only 4 points above Boston who didn't make it. They also had the second worst GA of any team that made it and 3rd worst GF. So they weren't exactly world burning, and have come off of multiple years of mediocrity. Basically every expert agreed that the team wasn't a couple tweaks away from contending, and worse they traded for a guy with a history of major injuries, who guess what? Had a major injury that ended his career. So you can use whatever stats you want, in the end Detroit was still a bubble team when the season ended, and was still first round fodder. And by the next season the bottom started to fall out and they only made it by the skin of their teeth.

What great assets did Detroit trade away? Please tell me how awesome Jarnkrok is. Nobody cares.

Right, the wheels came off the team after the deadline. Still finished with 100 points. If a team is playing well 3/4 of the season, you can reasonable assume they'd continue to play well the rest of the way. Big egg on Holland's face, right? LOL

You still don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

People defending Holland’s 2010’s will always be the ultimate case of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[Invictus12]

People defending Holland’s 2010’s will always be the ultimate case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Maybe that's the problem right there... You actually think you were victimized...

No it's a matter of understanding how we got there. Every business goes through cycles. Well, we're going through ours.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Maybe that's the problem right there... You actually think you were victimized...

No it's a matter of understanding how we got there. Every business goes through cycles. Well, we're going through ours.

I wasn’t victimized, lol. It’s just there’s a weird Cult of Holland who will defend him no matter what. “Every business goes through cycles,” is a really general, vague remark. Even when a business is in a valley, there are shrewd, smart moves to make to ensure long term growth and profit; Detroit did not do that from 2011-2017. So here we are.

 

[Invictus12]

I wasn’t victimized, lol. It’s just there’s a weird Cult of Holland who will defend him no matter what. “Every business goes through cycles,” is a really general, vague remark. Even when a business is in a valley, there are shrewd, smart moves to make to ensure long term growth and profit; Detroit did not do that from 2011-2017. So here we are.

I defend Holland on merit that the moves he makes, make sense. Whereas the anti-Holland crowd constantly drum the beat no matter what, contradicting their own line of thinking while at it. In turn, that makes me believe it's not the moves they criticize but just simply being like spoiled brats...

'Daddy, get me a pony'
'I can't, we live in an apartment, no place to put it and it's not allowed by our building'
'I don't care, get me a pony now!'
Businesses make shrewed moves within REALITY. You guys making them on EA Sports and think it's the same thing. In other words, you chose not to see shrewd moves.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I defend Holland on merit that the moves he makes, make sense. Whereas the anti-Holland crowd constantly drum the beat no matter what, contradicting their own line of thinking while at it. In turn, that makes me believe it's not the moves they criticize but just simply being like spoiled brats...

'Daddy, get me a pony'
'I can't, we live in an apartment, no place to put it and it's not allowed by our building'
'I don't care, get me a pony now!'
Businesses make shrewed moves within REALITY. You guys making them on EA Sports and think it's the same thing. In other words, you chose not to see shrewd moves.

Nothing but strawmen and ad hominem points in that post, no actual logic, and further proving my point about the lunacy of defending him.

 

[Invictus12]

Nothing but strawmen and ad hominem points in that post, no actual logic, and further proving my point about the lunacy of defending him.

If you believe that, go ahead, break it down!

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

If you believe that, go ahead, break it down!

There’s nothing to break down when there isn’t an actual point to the post.

 

[Invictus12]

Lol, You went on with the 'stockholm syndrom' and then accused me of planting strawman, etc...

Okay, go ahead, on what points am I defending Holland unreasonably.

 

[Bench]

Whereas the anti-Holland crowd constantly drum the beat no matter what, contradicting their own line of thinking while at it. In turn, that makes me believe it's not the moves they criticize but just simply being like spoiled brats...

This might hold water if it weren't for the fact the overwhelming consensus is that Holland and company had a great deadline and draft this year. It's almost like the tone of the posts follows with the perceived quality of the moves being made. When good things happen, it's positive. Check out the draft thread. Outside of a few posters who were hellbent on a defender, it was extremely well received.

But sure, call everyone spoiled little brats for expecting a top flight franchise like the Wings to ice a competitive team in a timely fashion.

 

[Invictus12]

No doubt there's the 'youth movement here' but at the same time, check out the amount of crying that Zadina might not be on the roster. Very little thought is put in wherther he's actually ready to be on it. So yeah, sure, most are glad that the players we got were generally ranked higher than we we're picking and got them. Same but opposite happened with Ras last year yet, very little patience to actually see how things play out. I was one of the people hell bent on Dobson and would have picked him ahead of, yes, Zadina. That's me though and I understand that these things are in the eyes of the beholder. No guarantee that one will end up above the other. You don't see me bitching about it though and thats the difference.

 

[Bench]

You don't see me *****ing about it though and thats the difference.

I'd be more impressed if you didn't delicate so many posts in this thread to bitching about other people and comparing them to spoiled little girls out of touch with reality. But hey, I won't deny you a chance to pat yourself on that extremely stoic back you have.

 

[Invictus12]

I'd be more impressed if you didn't delicate so many posts in this thread to *****ing about other people and comparing them to spoiled little girls out of touch with reality. But hey, I won't deny you a chance to pat yourself on that extremely stoic back you have.

Is that not the case? We needed a RH for powerplay. We got Zidlicky. At first the move was welcomed but now chastised for spending a pick. We got Cole, pretty much for the fact that he was what we needed. Injuries happen and Holland gets chastised. Frk claimed on waivers by Carolina, Holland gets chastised because Holland didn't get anything for him... Same with Pulkkinen... Whether anyone in the league was even willing to pay anything never actually entered your minds. Hell, I actually saw one postrer here criticizing Holland for moving Sheahan now that he bounced back a bit. Or how about all the players that Holland needs to 'sell while they have value' and bitch about it down the line if they actually put up a good season? Like Eaves or Fillpula?
Holland made attempts and moves to try and get Suter and Stamkos. Apparantly he did nothing to try and improve the roster still... Shit goes on and on...

Are you kidding me with this stuff? Do I again have to remind you at how many posters literally thought that Kindl and a 3rd was enough to get a top dman??? This isn't something I'm making up here. You give me one example of reasonable thinking and I can shoot thousands that were anything but at you.

Half this board still can't realize that players get old and getting players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, let alone Lidstrom is difficult. Yet none here concede that the only way for us to go after top picks 5 years ago meant trading away Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen. Moves none here would have supported, that's for sure. So whats left? Make tweaks, as Holland was doing or stand still. These were the options.

 

[jkutswings]

Is that not the case? We needed a RH for powerplay. We got Zidlicky. At first the move was welcomed but now chastised for spending a pick. We got Cole, pretty much for the fact that he was what we needed. Injuries happen and Holland gets chastised. Frk claimed on waivers by Carolina, Holland gets chastised because Holland didn't get anything for him... Same with Pulkkinen... Whether anyone in the league was even willing to pay anything never actually entered your minds. Hell, I actually saw one postrer here criticizing Holland for moving Sheahan now that he bounced back a bit. Or how about all the players that Holland needs to 'sell while they have value' and ***** about it down the line if they actually put up a good season? Like Eaves or Fillpula?
Holland made attempts and moves to try and get Suter and Stamkos. Apparantly he did nothing to try and improve the roster still... **** goes on and on...

Are you kidding me with this stuff? Do I again have to remind you at how many posters literally thought that Kindl and a 3rd was enough to get a top dman??? This isn't something I'm making up here. You give me one example of reasonable thinking and I can shoot thousands that were anything but at you.

Half this board still can't realize that players get old and getting players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, let alone Lidstrom is difficult. Yet none here concede that the only way for us to go after top picks 5 years ago meant trading away Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen. Moves none here would have supported, that's for sure. So whats left? Make tweaks, as Holland was doing or stand still. These were the options.

I was fully on board with trading Datsyuk right after the Chicago series. That year was a fluke of overachievement in the midst of an already closed championship window, and I said as much at the time. And that's not even counting the dozens of posters that begged for years to trade either Nyquist or Tatar for a defenseman, or some equally significant hockey trade to shake things up.

Did the vast majority disagree with anything resembling scorched Earth? Sure. But don't pretend that nobody was willing to make real changes before the streak ended.

 

[saska sault]

As a fan.. we care about "what have you done for me lately". For years Holland had done nothing.. I was a critic also. Since last years trade deadline I think he has done as good a job of an GM to stock pile young talent and picks. Thats what he has done lately and thats all I care about as a fan. Got 25 years of playoffs.. got stanley cups.. had some very mediocre years, and had a GM in denial of the glory years being over. Now we arguably have a top 5-7 prospect pool and have some good young talent in the NHL in Larkin and Mantha. I am optimistic as a fan that Holland has turned the corner finally. Longest deal he gave out was 3 years to a goalie.. ill take it. He gets an A- since the deadline for me.

 

[Pavels Dog]

After the Hossa signing Holland did absolutely nothing to get this team back on top.

Pittsburgh wasn't going anywhere so they acquired Kessel. Tampa acquired McDonagh and are looking at Karlsson now. LA signed Carter. Toronto needs to get over the hump so they signed Tavares.

What did we do? We traded for Kyle quincey and brought back Samuelsson.

It's like Holland gave up after 09

Pittsburgh/Tampa/LA did those things with prime cores, Toronto still has their stars on ELCs and are trying to speed their rebuild to the end phase (remains to be seen if it works). In terms of where the team was at, adding Rafalski and Hossa were both of that big "push the team over the top" variety. If we landed Suter that would have been big too, and we wanted to go after Stamkos. Gave up? Not really.

Were there other things we could have done after 09? Sure. Probably. But Wings after 2010 were an aging group of core players. You can't conjure free agents like Tavares out of nothing, nor can you change his childhood dream of playing for Toronto anymore than you can change Suter's wife wanting to go to Minnesota. We weren't in a position to package major future assets for immediate help like for example Tampa is doing. We hadn't sucked in a long time so we had no top picks like Drouin we could swap for a young D (which is what we needed). Maybe there were creative moves out there to be found but you probably shouldn't behave the same way when your core is 35 years old and injury riddled as you do when they are 25-30 years old and firing on all cylinders.

 

[Shaman464]

As a fan.. we care about "what have you done for me lately". For years Holland had done nothing.. I was a critic also. Since last years trade deadline I think he has done as good a job of an GM to stock pile young talent and picks. Thats what he has done lately and thats all I care about as a fan. Got 25 years of playoffs.. got stanley cups.. had some very mediocre years, and had a GM in denial of the glory years being over. Now we arguably have a top 5-7 prospect pool and have some good young talent in the NHL in Larkin and Mantha. I am optimistic as a fan that Holland has turned the corner finally. Longest deal he gave out was 3 years to a goalie.. ill take it. He gets an A- since the deadline for me.

We do not have a top 5-7 prospect pool, we are still around 10. Not bad, but the strength in the pool mostly is in wingers and middle pairing D-men.