Ken Holland has been rebuilding through the draft for nearly 15 years

[The Zermanator]

For not having assets to build a team with? By the very definition of the words he's failure in that respect.

Exactly. Some around here like to %$&* on Yzerman saying he's never won a Cup as GM. Well the Cup is hard to win in a cap league. But they're in the conversation every year. They have some of the best players in the league. And yet he's still somehow in the running for Karlsson. How is it that after years of not competing, whenever a big player hits the trade block we 'don't have the assets'?

Yzerman is a hustler, that's the difference. Holland has become more of a 'steady as she goes, stay the course' type. He's ultra-conservative and that's his major failing. This has played out exactly like many of us were predicting when advocating for a real rebuild years ago. A slow but steady decline into mediocrity, with very little to show for it.

Some questioned our loyalty because we 'wanted the team to lose'. But I never looked at it like that. By starting a real rebuild sooner, sure we would have started losing earlier. But we also would have started winning again sooner. Once a rebuild becomes necessary, it's necessary. Deluding yourself with fantasies of 'rebuilds on the fly' (which admittedly I believed for the first few years ) only delays the inevitable. And all we got in exchange was a few more years of mostly boring hockey finishing out as first round target practice, and then not even that. Just look at the top 10 from the few drafts before last year's, pick one player from each. That could be the hockey we're looking at now.

It's not even about the Cup, or the playoffs. At the end of the day, it's all about the hockey on the ice. And the last few years, including the last 2 or 3 first round exits, were mostly boring, unskilled hockey. I want them to have that talent and skill again, even if it means being really bad for a few years. At least you get to watch the young elite players grow while the team is bad. I'm actually excited for next season because I can't wait to see another year out of Larkin and Mantha and watch the young blood in Rasmussen, Zadina, and Hronek get their starts. So here's to the rebuild finally starting in earnest. To his credit, Holland's done more good than bad since starting it. Even if he does say things that worry me from time to time.

I'm just sick of the same tired argument in every single thread. I think the reason why those who criticize Holland annoy me more, is they have a tendency to turn every conversation into an opportunity to take little jabs and derail the topic, and while sometimes it may be true, I'd prefer it to be left in a single thread dedicated to Holland opposed a repetitive loop all over the board.

This is what I don't get, he's the general manager. Yeah his name's gonna pop up in quite a few discussions... Because he is the final decision maker on everything to do with this team. Conspiracies about ownership pulling strings notwithstanding.

 

[kliq]

This is what I don't get, he's the general manager. Yeah his name's gonna pop up in quite a few discussions... Because he is the final decision maker on everything to do with this team. Conspiracies about ownership pulling strings notwithstanding.

Straw man argument. I'm not saying Holland can't be brought up, I'm saying there is no need to go back to the same debates over and over and over again.

I have no problem with people bringing up Holland when it makes sense, but if you are in a thread about Anthony Mantha for example, and the next thing you know it turns into how Holland is an idiot because he traded for Legwand 4 years ago, it gets old. Also, if people want to discuss Holland, lets move it forward and stop with the sane points over and over and over and over again. It's been discussed, at least if it was new posters, sure. But its the same people just repeating the same thing over and over again. It's as if they just go thread to thread and click "paste" "paste" "paste".

On a side note, I find it pretty funny that you are calling a business owner having influence a "conspiracy" lol.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Exactly. Some around here like to %$&* on Yzerman saying he's never won a Cup as GM. Well the Cup is hard to win in a cap league. But they're in the conversation every year. They have some of the best players in the league. And yet he's still somehow in the running for Karlsson. How is it that after years of not competing, whenever a big player hits the trade block we 'don't have the assets'?

Yzerman is a hustler, that's the difference. Holland has become more of a 'steady as she goes, stay the course' type.

Tampa drafted their main core from 2008-2012.
Our last core was drafted between 98-00.

Tampa had a top 3 pick as late as 2013.
In 2017 we had our first top 10 pick in decades.

Just slightly different situations for the teams. I mean not a huge difference but a little bit.

By starting a real rebuild sooner, sure we would have started losing earlier. But we also would have started winning again sooner. Once a rebuild becomes necessary, it's necessary. Deluding yourself with fantasies of 'rebuilds on the fly' (which admittedly I believed for the first few years ) only delays the inevitable.

What moves, specifically, would you have made to start the rebuild earlier? I mean given that we had 100 points in 2015 and made the playoffs with Legwand-Sheahan-Andersson down the middle and Kindl-Smith 2nd pairing, where and how would you have pulled the plug to land us top 10 picks sooner?

 

[InjuredChoker]

What moves, specifically, would you have made to start the rebuild earlier? I mean given that we had 100 points in 2015 and made the playoffs with Legwand-Sheahan-Andersson down the middle and Kindl-Smith 2nd pairing, where and how would you have pulled the plug to land us top 10 picks sooner?

legwand was playing for ottawa senators in 2015. kindl and smith were also rarely paired together.

 

[Pavels Dog]

legwand was playing for ottawa senators in 2015. kindl and smith were also rarely paired together.

Kindl-Smith was a pairing in 2013. Legwand 2014. 100 points 2015. Point is there were plenty of different ways we made the playoffs. Getting top 10 picks earlier would have required a lot of deliberate dismantling of the team.

 

[obey86]

Exactly. Some around here like to %$&* on Yzerman saying he's never won a Cup as GM. Well the Cup is hard to win in a cap league. But they're in the conversation every year. They have some of the best players in the league. And yet he's still somehow in the running for Karlsson. How is it that after years of not competing, whenever a big player hits the trade block we 'don't have the assets'?

Yzerman is a hustler, that's the difference. Holland has become more of a 'steady as she goes, stay the course' type. He's ultra-conservative and that's his major failing. This has played out exactly like many of us were predicting when advocating for a real rebuild years ago. A slow but steady decline into mediocrity, with very little to show for it.

Some questioned our loyalty because we 'wanted the team to lose'. But I never looked at it like that. By starting a real rebuild sooner, sure we would have started losing earlier. But we also would have started winning again sooner. Once a rebuild becomes necessary, it's necessary. Deluding yourself with fantasies of 'rebuilds on the fly' (which admittedly I believed for the first few years ) only delays the inevitable. And all we got in exchange was a few more years of mostly boring hockey finishing out as first round target practice, and then not even that. Just look at the top 10 from the few drafts before last year's, pick one player from each. That could be the hockey we're looking at now.

It's not even about the Cup, or the playoffs. At the end of the day, it's all about the hockey on the ice. And the last few years, including the last 2 or 3 first round exits, were mostly boring, unskilled hockey. I want them to have that talent and skill again, even if it means being really bad for a few years. At least you get to watch the young elite players grow while the team is bad. I'm actually excited for next season because I can't wait to see another year out of Larkin and Mantha and watch the young blood in Rasmussen, Zadina, and Hronek get their starts. So here's to the rebuild finally starting in earnest. To his credit, Holland's done more good than bad since starting it. Even if he does say things that worry me from time to time.



This is what I don't get, he's the general manager. Yeah his name's gonna pop up in quite a few discussions... Because he is the final decision maker on everything to do with this team. Conspiracies about ownership pulling strings notwithstanding.

They just missed the playoffs two years ago dude. "Every year." No.

 

[StargateSG1]

Straw man argument. I'm not saying Holland can't be brought up, I'm saying there is no need to go back to the same debates over and over and over again.

I have no problem with people bringing up Holland when it makes sense, but if you are in a thread about Anthony Mantha for example, and the next thing you know it turns into how Holland is an idiot because he traded for Legwand 4 years ago, it gets old. Also, if people want to discuss Holland, lets move it forward and stop with the sane points over and over and over and over again. It's been discussed, at least if it was new posters, sure. But its the same people just repeating the same thing over and over again. It's as if they just go thread to thread and click "paste" "paste" "paste".

On a side note, I find it pretty funny that you are calling a business owner having influence a "conspiracy" lol.

You do realize you are on the internet and you are repeating the same points over and over again as well, right?
No one is forcing you to read it, if you don't like it.

 

[obey86]

You do realize you are on the internet and you are repeating the same points over and over again as well, right?
No one is forcing you to read it, if you don't like it.

But how do you know what you're reading until you've actually read it?

 

[InjuredChoker]

Kindl-Smith was a pairing in 2013. Legwand 2014. 100 points 2015. Point is there were plenty of different ways we made the playoffs. Getting top 10 picks earlier would have required a lot of deliberate dismantling of the team.

smith was with KFQ in 2013. kindl had many different partners. i agree with the final point except for 2014.

 

[StargateSG1]

But how do you know what you're reading until you've actually read it?

Kinda makes the point that whining about content on the blogs is well, pointless.

 

[StargateSG1]

Tampa drafted their main core from 2008-2012.
Our last core was drafted between 98-00.

Tampa had a top 3 pick as late as 2013.
In 2017 we had our first top 10 pick in decades.

Just slightly different situations for the teams. I mean not a huge difference but a little bit.

What moves, specifically, would you have made to start the rebuild earlier? I mean given that we had 100 points in 2015 and made the playoffs with Legwand-Sheahan-Andersson down the middle and Kindl-Smith 2nd pairing, where and how would you have pulled the plug to land us top 10 picks sooner?

Everyone knew it was over when Lidstrom retired after the 2012 season.
What was Plan B after Suter decided to go to Minny?
He wasted prime years of Zetterberg and Datsyuk, "rebuilding on the fly".
What the hell did that ever accomplish?
1st round embarrassments?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Everyone knew it was over when Lidstrom retired after the 2012 season.
What was Plan B after Suter decided to go to Minny?
He wasted prime years of Zetterberg and Datsyuk, "rebuilding on the fly".
What the hell did that ever accomplish?
1st round embarrassments?

So after striking out on Suter you do what? Trade Dats? Trade picks and prospects to go all-in?

 

[StargateSG1]

Food for though for the smallish "Kenny can do no wrong" crowd here.
He couldn't have done anything different?
How about trading Datsyuk for a boatload of assets, instead of pressuring
him into a 3 years contract he didn't want to sign?
That would kick off a rebuild, no?
How about asking Zetterberg if he wanted another shot at the Cup, when he could still skate?
That would most likely put Wings in contention for both, McDavid, Mathews and other generational talent players.
His current way could for sure be the 15 years of rebuild.

 

[StargateSG1]

Red Wings should sign Dylan Larkin for as long as possible

"If I were in Ken Holland’s shoes, I would have approached the free agent summer totally differently, I’d sign Larkin for as long as possible, even if it meant rolling the dice a bit when it comes to AAV.
I mean, sure, it’s enticing to try to land a big bargain. David Pastrnak, one of Custance’s comparables, looks like a serious bargain for Boston at his deal-with-the-devil $6.66M. Matt Cane’s remarkably accurate contract estimates call for Larkin to land six years at a $6.32M clip, which is the sort of situation that can make bargain-hunters salivate.
And, no doubt, the Red Wings could use some wins. Just check the scary money and term for Frans Nielsen, Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm, and Danny DeKeyser if you need a reason to cringe.
A Larkin contract shouldn’t be about all of that, as ideally, his term would far outlast even Holland’s worst opuses."

 

[Frk It]

Everyone knew it was over when Lidstrom retired after the 2012 season.
What was Plan B after Suter decided to go to Minny?
He wasted prime years of Zetterberg and Datsyuk, "rebuilding on the fly".
What the hell did that ever accomplish?
1st round embarrassments?

Datsyuk’s name is on the Cup twice. He played in 3 Stanley cups by the time he was 31. His prime was not wasted at all.

 

[StargateSG1]

Datsyuk’s name is on the Cup twice. He played in 3 Stanley cups by the time he was 31. His prime was not wasted at all.

I didn't say all prime years....
In his interview, after he left, he said that everyone only talked about the streak for years, no one talked about winning the Cup anymore.
It's kinda important, when your star player feels that way, don't you think?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Food for though for the smallish "Kenny can do no wrong" crowd here.
He couldn't have done anything different?
How about trading Datsyuk for a boatload of assets, instead of pressuring
him into a 3 years contract he didn't want to sign?
That would kick off a rebuild, no?

Datsyuk felt so ”pressured” to re-sign he did it a full year before his contract was up. Imagine if the GM of the Sens or Isles had those kind of GM skills to pressure their star players?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Food for though for the smallish "Kenny can do no wrong" crowd here.
He couldn't have done anything different?
How about trading Datsyuk for a boatload of assets, instead of pressuring
him into a 3 years contract he didn't want to sign?
That would kick off a rebuild, no?
How about asking Zetterberg if he wanted another shot at the Cup, when he could still skate?
That would most likely put Wings in contention for both, McDavid, Mathews and other generational talent players.
His current way could for sure be the 15 years of rebuild.

Nobody was going to give you “boatloads of assets” for 35 year old Datsyuk with a year left on his deal. Hell, people don’t want to give Ottawa “boatloads of assets” for Erik Karlsson who is squarely in the middle of his prime and probably the top defenseman in the league without an extension.

And Datsyuk wasn’t pressured into the deal. Hell, HIS agent wanted a five year deal in the initial negotiations for the three years he ended up signing.

And what the crap on Z? As soon as the 2012 lockout happened, he was locked into this roster until he put his foot down and said he wanted out. The recapture specter over the Wings would be absolutely damning for them if they traded Z and therefore lost the benefit of controlling whether he could be on LTIR or not.

Holland has made missteps in getting his team back to the top, for sure, but crazy ass solutions like trading Datsyuk and Zetterberg smack 100% of hindsight and not understanding what the trade market for guys like that actually was. Nobody is looking to fork over boatloads of assets for guys in their mid 30s, no matter their talent. Particularly those who dealt with serious injuries and/or were already showing signs of slowing down and not being the absolute studs they were in previous.

 

[kliq]

You do realize you are on the internet and you are repeating the same points over and over again as well, right?
No one is forcing you to read it, if you don't like it.

I'm clarifying because my point was misunderstood, nice try though.

I come to this board because I enjoy discussions about the Red Wings. It's easy to sit there on your high horse and tell people not to read what they don't like, but when so many threads are derailed with the same argument, its difficult to have conversations about anything else. Get over it man.

 

[kliq]

But how do you know what you're reading until you've actually read it?

lol, this comment is awesome!

Kinda makes the point that whining about content on the blogs is well, pointless.

Again, straw man argument. See above if this confuses you.

 

[snailderby]

Most of the arguments against Holland fall into one of four categories:

1. Holland didn't sell established players (like Datsyuk) earlier for draft picks.

2. Holland traded away draft picks for aging veterans (like Zidlicky) to extend the playoff streak.

3. Holland didn't use Detroit's draft picks effectively. (Among other things, he didn't draft enough defensemen with the 1st and 2nd round picks that he had.)

4. Holland gave established players contracts that were too expensive and too long.

Points #1, #3, and #4 require a separate analysis. But re point #2, here is a list of all the times (after the end of the 2010-2011 season) that Holland traded a draft pick for an older player.

2012-02-21	Sebastian Piche 2012 - #19	Kyle Quincey
2014-03-05	Calle Jarnkrok Patrick Eaves 2014 - #46	David Legwand
2015-03-01	Mattias Janmark Mattias Backman 2015 - #49	Erik Cole 2015 - #73
2015-03-02	2016 - #77	Marek Zidlicky
2016-05-26	2017 - #69	Dylan Sadowy (technically a prospect, and not an aging veteran, but we'll count him anyways)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[PullHard]

If you add:

Vasilevskiy/ Maatta/ Matheson

McKeown/ Dougherty/ Donato/ Montour

Greenway/ Andersson/ Dunn/ Kylington

Day

into our current organization I think that is a pretty significant group of players added. Obviously we have no idea who Detroit would have taken but those guys were all taken around the spots that Detroit traded away. It stings looking at those names though.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If you add:

Vasilevskiy/ Maatta/ Matheson

McKeown/ Dougherty/ Donato/ Montour

Greenway/ Andersson/ Dunn/ Kylington

Day

into our current organization I think that is a pretty significant group of players added. Obviously we have no idea who Detroit would have taken but those guys were all taken around the spots that Detroit traded away. It stings looking at those names though.

Yeah maybe we could have drafted at 14 instead of 6 this year.

 

[PullHard]

Yeah maybe we could have drafted at 14 instead of 6 this year.

I know that you're only rudely using sarcasm to defend Mr Holland but outside of maybe Vasi none of those guys are at the point in their careers to help or hurt a team as much as 8 places in the overall NHL standings.

 

[SirloinUB]

Some questioned our loyalty because we 'wanted the team to lose'. But I never looked at it like that. By starting a real rebuild sooner, sure we would have started losing earlier. But we also would have started winning again sooner. Once a rebuild becomes necessary, it's necessary. Deluding yourself with fantasies of 'rebuilds on the fly' (which admittedly I believed for the first few years ) only delays the inevitable. And all we got in exchange was a few more years of mostly boring hockey finishing out as first round target practice, and then not even that. Just look at the top 10 from the few drafts before last year's, pick one player from each. That could be the hockey we're looking at now.

You posit that “the sooner you start the sooner you finish”

1) that’s not true, there is no guarantee on rebuilds. There are countless examples of rebuilds being dragged out years longer than planned.

2) Even if it’s true that “the sooner you rebuild the sooner you finish” that logic works both ways. It is equally true that there is always another year to rebuild. It doesn’t make sense to deliberately discard playoffs (think branding, Cash flow, potential playoff run, arena deal, etc) to prematurely start a rebuild before the team is actually plunging the basement.