Ken Holland has been rebuilding through the draft for nearly 15 years

[Pavels Dog]

Yeah, well, 80 million dollars doesn't buy you much anymore, eh?

You’re really hung up on the difference between spending 73 or 75 or 78 million aren’t you?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You’re really hung up on the difference between spending 73 or 75 or 78 million aren’t you?

The optics of having the oldest and most expensive roster in the league while finishing bottom five is very bad.

 

[obey86]

The optics of having the oldest and most expensive roster in the league while finishing bottom five is very bad.

Optics? I don't see why the optics matters. I'm not going to be happy if they are a bottom 5 team whether they spend 75 million or spend to the cap. I mean, it sucks for cap flexibility if we spend to the cap and suck, but by the time this team will be good again, the Wings won't have the majority of the bad contracts they currently have.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The optics of having the oldest and most expensive roster in the league while finishing bottom five is very bad.

Pretty sure we ended as the 3rd most expensive or something, with like 8 or 9 teams having less cap space than us. Like so much else it’s just a talking point. As if spending 1 million less and removing Franzen from the roster age and inserting some random kid suddenly makes everything better.

 

[jkutswings]

The types of players you're looking for them to sign (young players with promising potential) won't sign one-year deals. They simply don't exist.

Think Dan Cleary (the early years). A kid what was highly regarded, busted out, and might reboot his career with a change of scenery. Shoot, for an extreme example, Nail Yakupov is 24 and just signed a one year KHL deal. I'm not saying he'd be my first choice, but there are definitely players under 30 that underwhelmed on their first team (or two) but might be worth a look.

Vanek isn't going to help the team win more games. It all comes down to the continued development of Larkin, Mantha, etc. So unless you're in favor of also trading those players for draft picks, you're better off putting your Lightning avatar image back up.

I see Thomas Vanek providing zero mentoring value, and possibly zero trade deadline value. If you disagree, that's fine. But if I think a veteran won't benefit the kids while he's here, and won't benefit the team by getting dealt...why would I want him around?

 

[Claypool]

Think Dan Cleary (the early years). A kid what was highly regarded, busted out, and might reboot his career with a change of scenery. Shoot, for an extreme example, Nail Yakupov is 24 and just signed a one year KHL deal. I'm not saying he'd be my first choice, but there are definitely players under 30 that underwhelmed on their first team (or two) but might be worth a look.



I see Thomas Vanek providing zero mentoring value, and possibly zero trade deadline value. If you disagree, that's fine. But if I think a veteran won't benefit the kids while he's here, and won't benefit the team by getting dealt...why would I want him around?

Red Wings got a 3rd round pick for Vanek the first time. I'll take another 3rd round pick for him this year, too.

The fact Nail Yakupov couldn't even find a job in the NHL says everything we need to know.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Pretty sure we ended as the 3rd most expensive or something, with like 8 or 9 teams having less cap space than us. Like so much else it’s just a talking point. As if spending 1 million less and removing Franzen from the roster age and inserting some random kid suddenly makes everything better.

we had the oldest team in the league without franzen (and booth).

 

[Pavels Dog]

we had the oldest team in the league without franzen (and booth).

Maybe. Does it matter?
If Z retires and Zadina+Ras make the team we’re probably average or even younger. Does it change anything?
You still have to look at what your young players are doing and not just get younger for the sake of being younger. Larkin taking over as #1C is a lot more important rebuilding-wise than inserting 5-6 bad rookies in depth roles to get the average age down.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Maybe. Does it matter?
If Z retires and Zadina+Ras make the team we’re probably average or even younger. Does it change anything?
You still have to look at what your young players are doing and not just get younger for the sake of being younger. Larkin taking over as #1C is a lot more important rebuilding-wise than inserting 5-6 bad rookies in depth roles to get the average age down.

average alone isn't a problem, medicore players saddled to bad contracts that pull the average age up is.

ras and zadina making the team is a positive indicator for their and thus the teams, future success. assuming they were good enough to make it and weren't just given spots which is how it would probably has to go.

 

[jkutswings]

Red Wings got a 3rd round pick for Vanek the first time. I'll take another 3rd round pick for him this year, too.

But I'm saying I don't think he'll get that again. This year he was dealt to Columbus for these guys:

Jussi Jokinen Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Tyler Motte Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

So if you still want him for a 4th or 5th rounder, or somebody else's garbage, then ok. But he's a stock that's falling, not holding steady.

The fact Nail Yakupov couldn't even find a job in the NHL says everything we need to know.

Rather than dismiss the one example that I specifically said was not my first choice, maybe realize that there are several options in the spectrum between Vanek and Yakupov.

 

[BinCookin]

Lets take Zadina as an example.

Great shot, good skating, great hockey IQ... This kid should be a solid NHL'er one day right?

Right right? everyone....

Scenario 1)

Now lets say we put him on line 1 to start the year.

He starts off slow. The line does poorly. Zadina starts questioning how he plays hockey, as he is supposed to be producing.

He starts holding his stick harder, waiting for better shots.... his season gets worse.

After 30 games they send him down to the AHL. Confidence of Zadina is in tatters.


THIS IS A POSSIBILITY. - Zadina could take years to recover from this.

OR he could hit the ground running, and be great jumping from playing with children, to playing with grown men.
I am sorry i just see option 1 as more likely to happen than option 2.


Scenario 2) Zadina plays 1 season in the AHL. He gets more playing time. The competition is harder. He thinks he might be too good for the AHL, and maybe his production proves it. But lets say he starts off slow in the AHL. He already knows he can dominate junior. His self confidence cant be that hard hit in the AHL. And mentality is a big factor for these kids success/failure.


I think you run zero risk to the prospect starting him in the AHL.
I think there is a risk if you start the prospect in the NHL.

Its very possible the BEST choice for Zadina ...Even if he is freakin amazing like Laine right out of the gate... The best choice may be first half the season in the AHL. He dominates there, and proves (more to himself than to us) that he is too good for the AHL. WIth that knowledge, he knows he should be in the NHL. And when he is called up, his confidence cannot be hit that hard, because he knows he is supposed to be there (since he dominated 1 league lower).


Now signing Vanek and etc... I don't know... maybe its super stupid, maybe not.

But i do think these scenarios i describe for Zadina are really no related to who is on the active Roster.
This is JUST talking about Zadina.

What do we care if we lose more because Zadina is in the AHL... we are rebuilding.
The ONLY thing i care about is how best to develop Zadina... And that choice might be AHL, not NHL.
Pay very close attention in preseason. If Zadina ever looks pushed around... if Zadina ever looks tentative trying his moves vs 6'4 and 6'5 defencemen.... than be prepared for the Red Wings to recognize that... and to send him to the AHL.

Heck Zadina could produce 11 preseason points.... everyone will watch the highlight vids.. Everyone will say he is the top scorer in preseason ("he needs to stay"). And its very possible the Red Wings Brass sees those same warning signs with the player, and realize he would be better off in the AHL.

As much as we all think we know hockey inside out, and that our Management team are complete idiots.... They are not. They know "many" things we don't. And I think this is a debatable idea. But be prepared to not be so upset, if Zadina goes to the AHL. It might very well be the "SMART" plan.

 

[dragonballgtz]

Lets take Zadina as an example.

Great shot, good skating, great hockey IQ... This kid should be a solid NHL'er one day right?

Right right? everyone....

Scenario 1)

Now lets say we put him on line 1 to start the year.

He starts off slow. The line does poorly. Zadina starts questioning how does Trashill have a job.

LOL... sorry seent that line and had to make the joke. Seriously though I dont want Trashill to tarnish this kid

 

[BinCookin]

LOL... sorry seent that line and had to make the joke. Seriously though I dont want Trashill to tarnish this kid

I mean honestly its hard to know if Blashill is good / bad at hockey knowledge.

We have given him a last place team (which should place last).

How can you rate the coach at all under those circumstances.

 

[Frk It]

After 30 games they send him down to the AHL. Confidence of Zadina is in tatters.


THIS IS A POSSIBILITY. - Zadina could take years to recover from this.

I hope we’re not drafting people at the top of the draft that are this mentally weak.

Have you listened to any of Zadina’s interviews? He is supremely confident and seems like a hard worker, even if he was to get knocked on his ass a bit I think he would be fine.

 

[dragonballgtz]

I mean honestly its hard to know if Blashill is good / bad at hockey knowledge.

We have given him a last place team (which should place last).

How can you rate the coach at all under those circumstances.

The way the team looked lost once he stepped into the head coaching role. It wasn't just due to Datsyuk leaving but the team looked lost in the system he implemented. IMO Trashill doesn't know how to use the players he has to get the most out of them.

To go back on topic: Holland & Company needs to do a lot better in drafting defensemen.

 

[BinCookin]

I hope we’re not drafting people at the top of the draft that are this mentally weak.

Have you listened to any of Zadina’s interviews? He is supremely confident and seems like a hard worker, even if he was to get knocked on his ass a bit I think he would be fine.

His confidence is high BECAUSE he just dominated Juniors.
This is the attitude you want to preserve.

You throw him into the 1st line role right away or 2nd line role... have him vs Parayko and get laid out... ya i think it would be illogical to say his confidence wont take a hit.

Look he might be good enough right now. Or he might not. But what i am saying is that putting Hall into a first line roll made him take about 5-6 years to develop into a good player.

Lets not make that mistake.

 

[BinCookin]

The way the team looked lost once he stepped into the head coaching role. It wasn't just due to Datsyuk leaving but the team looked lost in the system he implemented. IMO Trashill doesn't know how to use the players he has to get the most out of them.

To go back on topic: Holland & Company needs to do a lot better in drafting defensemen.

You underestimate the loss of Datsyuk leaving...

 

[Frk It]

His confidence is high BECAUSE he just dominated Juniors.
This is the attitude you want to preserve.

You throw him into the 1st line role right away or 2nd line role... have him vs Parayko and get laid out... ya i think it would be illogical to say his confidence wont take a hit.

Look he might be good enough right now. Or he might not. But what i am saying is that putting Hall into a first line roll made him take about 5-6 years to develop into a good player.

Lets not make that mistake.

I’m fine with starting him in the AHL, most guys who aren’t top 3 picks don’t go directly into the NHL. It’s a good developmental route to roll with.

But personally I just don’t share this concern that these kids are fragile and adversity will ruin them. I can only hope we are drafting people who will push back when their back is against the wall. Maybe that’s an idealistic outlook, but Larkin showed us you can take your lumps and develop just fine.

That’s also the nice thing about drafting high, you can get the total package of skill + character. You don’t have to sacrifice one for the other.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The optics of having the oldest and most expensive roster in the league while finishing bottom five is very bad.

I think the optics of not even attempting to ice a competitive roster are worse.

Seriously, if you are a proponent of tanking, you really shouldn't be bringing up optics in your argument.

 

[TheMule93]

I think the optics of not even attempting to ice a competitive roster are worse.

Seriously, if you are a proponent of tanking, you really shouldn't be bringing up optics in your argument.

You choose to view it as "not even attempting to ice a competitive roster" while others view it as "trying to ice a competitive roster 3-5 years from now"

its all about optics

 

[dragonballgtz]

You underestimate the loss of Datsyuk leaving...

And in my view you underestimate the effect Trashill has had on this team...

 

[ricky0034]

His confidence is high BECAUSE he just dominated Juniors.
This is the attitude you want to preserve.

You throw him into the 1st line role right away or 2nd line role... have him vs Parayko and get laid out... ya i think it would be illogical to say his confidence wont take a hit.

Look he might be good enough right now. Or he might not. But what i am saying is that putting Hall into a first line roll made him take about 5-6 years to develop into a good player.

Lets not make that mistake.

huh?

he went from 42 points in 65 games as a rookie to 53 in 61 his second year and 50 in 45 and 9th in league scoring while leading his team in scoring by 12 points in his third

 

[Deas]

3) I do blame Ken Holland for not putting more emphasis on acquiring top picks years ago. Keeping the roster floating in purgatory with veteran stopgaps has only slowed our fall.

Honestly, it feels like too much pride. A level of hubris that they could beat the odds.

Completely agree about these two factors. These are organization killers.

Pride in holding on to a poor core and a playoff streak in Detroit's case. Vancouver has also done point 3 above (well actually they've gotten high picks anyway but because they've stunk with stopgaps, not because they tried to get the picks, haha). In their case I call it bad self awareness They clung to a win now mode during the Sedins' late prime that just wasn't realistic. Signing L Ericsson and other half good or plain mediocre veterans to bad contracts instead of going full re-build. Now they have a very exciting prospect situation anyway, but they are delaying an exciting future, and might mess it up, with more suspect veteran signings.

I guess patience is another factor. These are companies after all. Imagine telling owners (with perhaps little knowledge of the field) that "hey we need to suck for a few years." But then again, I think they should trust in the chances of pitching a youth movement for the fans.

 

[jkutswings]

I guess patience is another factor. These are companies after all. Imagine telling owners (with perhaps little knowledge of the field) that "hey we need to suck for a few years." But then again, I think they should trust in the chances of pitching a youth movement for the fans.

It's the owner's job to hire good people and sign the checks. It's the job of the rest of the front office to make the best decisions they can for a realistic assessment of what the roster has versus what it needs (within any additional requirements of ownership).

Sometimes those camps butt heads. Make your case, and let the chips fall where they may on a case by case basis. But in the bigger picture, either management has authority to do their job, or they don't.

If the hidden truth for Detroit is that Holland wanted to take an approach closer to rebuilding a few years ago, but the Illitches shot him down and mandated the streak, then that's a bad and meddlesome on-ice decision by ownership, even if it helped them financially in the short term.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

just for clarity

its also possible dahlin sucks to start the year with buffalo and with so much hype his confidence could be in tatters

and oh man... imagine if that had happened to McDavid?