Ken Holland has been rebuilding through the draft for nearly 15 years

[jkutswings]

One thing I know for certain is Kenny hasn't read this thread. The view of his computer screen is blocked by all his Stanley Cup rings.

Chiarelli was viewed as a trade wizard in Boston. Does that erase the mistakes he's made in Edmonton?

Past success does not predicate future success, and sometimes even those once at the very top of their game need a change of scenery at a minimum.

 

[BinCookin]

umm, abby and dekeyser were extended AFTER the summer of 2014. so did helm and nielsen, though the latter was signing, not an extension.

Yes this is a significant hole in that article's logic.

 

[Henkka]

umm, abby and dekeyser were extended AFTER the summer of 2014. so did helm and nielsen, though the latter was signing, not an extension.

And for what reason is an extended contract against a rebuild?

You need hockey players to PLAY MEANINGFUL HOCKEY, BECAUSE THE PLAN IS NOT TO ICE 100% JUST KIDS. 100% kid roster loses night after night, and they won't learn nothing from it. This has been said multiple times in Holland's mouth.

Unbelieveable why people won't get it. The whole process is clear and simple.

Just different.

 

[InjuredChoker]

And for what reason is an extended contract against a rebuild?

You need hockey players to play MEANINFUL HOCKEY, BECAUSE THE PLAN IS NOT TO ICE 100% JUST KIDS.

Unbelieveable why people won't get it. The whole process is clear and simple.

Just different.

nothing to do with kids. i didn't even thought about those signings blocking kids when i made that post.

i'm not sure if there's an other rebuilding team that extended/signed 4 (medicore) players well into their 30s after deciding that they want to rebuild.

sign a vet for mil or 2 in UFA if you want those. sell at the deadline. take crappy contracts in exchange for picks/prospects. rinse and repeat.

 

[Henkka]

Never extending anyone is the ultimate worst asset management any GM can do.

There has to be players who will play.

 

[jkutswings]

Never extending anyone is the ultimate worst asset management any GM can do.

There has to be players who will play.

Except that none of those players provided good value versus a yearly mercenary approach.

 

[Winger98]

umm, abby and dekeyser were extended AFTER the summer of 2014. so did helm and nielsen, though the latter was signing, not an extension.

Yeah, I had a problem with them using the phrasing of unloading bad contracts and then turning around and talking about them slowly expiring, too. Maybe my definition of unloading is a bit different than theirs, but it certainly doesn't involve just sitting there and waiting for them to tick away. I'm not saying I wanted to just ship everyone out for whatever, but if your argument is that the first part of the rebuild is getting rid of the bad contracts, we're still three or four years before that phase is over.

 

[Claypool]

Except that none of those players provided good value versus a yearly mercenary approach.

You also criticized the year mercenary approach this off season with signing Vanek to a one year deal. So what's up?

 

[jkutswings]

You also criticized the year mercenary approach this off season with signing Vanek to a one year deal. So what's up?

Umm... They're both bad ideas?

Vanek the first time around was worth a short term gamble, but didn't net the return most of us expected. Now? After he's in even less demand, is a year older, and Detroit has more promising forwards in the pipeline than before? I'll pass.

Sign the kids you know you want to keep (Larkin, Mantha, etc.). Try to trade for a player young enough to still be useful in 5 years. If you do anything at all in free agency, look for the NEXT Vanek via a slightly younger guy who didn't live up to expectations and might be worth a flier.

Vanek, part deux, feels kinda like Samuelsson. The first signing was a decent stretch. The sequel was a bad idea that became a worse reality. Vanek will either help them win a few meaningless games to drop a couple draft positions, without returning anything at the deadline, or he'll finally hit the wall, and be a dead cap money signing for no good reason.

In theory, it's still better than overextending yourself on a lousy deal long term, but I'd rather skip both options than take the lesser of two evils.

 

[Claypool]

Umm... They're both bad ideas?

Vanek the first time around was worth a short term gamble, but didn't net the return most of us expected. Now? After he's in even less demand, is a year older, and Detroit has more promising forwards in the pipeline than before? I'll pass.

Sign the kids you know you want to keep (Larkin, Mantha, etc.). Try to trade for a player young enough to still be useful in 5 years. If you do anything at all in free agency, look for the NEXT Vanek via a slightly younger guy who didn't live up to expectations and might be worth a flier.

Vanek, part deux, feels kinda like Samuelsson. The first signing was a decent stretch. The sequel was a bad idea that became a worse reality. Vanek will either help them win a few meaningless games to drop a couple draft positions, without returning anything at the deadline, or he'll finally hit the wall, and be a dead cap money signing for no good reason.

In theory, it's still better than overextending yourself on a lousy deal long term, but I'd rather skip both options than take the lesser of two evils.

All the kids are going to get signed, so there's no worry there. I know you'd rather have the Red Wings forfeit all 82 games, but they still have to put players on the ice. The types of players you're looking for them to sign (young players with promising potential) won't sign one-year deals. They simply don't exist. Vanek isn't going to help the team win more games. It all comes down to the continued development of Larkin, Mantha, etc. So unless you're in favor of also trading those players for draft picks, you're better off putting your Lightning avatar image back up.

 

[StargateSG1]

All the kids are going to get signed, so there's no worry there. I know you'd rather have the Red Wings forfeit all 82 games, but they still have to put players on the ice. The types of players you're looking for them to sign (young players with promising potential) won't sign one-year deals. They simply don't exist. Vanek isn't going to help the team win more games. It all comes down to the continued development of Larkin, Mantha, etc. So unless you're in favor of also trading those players for draft picks, you're better off putting your Lightning avatar image back up.

So, explain something to all of us...
With so many other veterans in the room, including Zetterberg, Kronwall, Nielsen, Abdelkader, Ericsson, etc...
Why do they need more "veteran leadership"?
What happened to 3 to 5 young players he claimed he expects before he was given the extension?

 

[dragonballgtz]

So, explain something to all of us...
With so many other veterans in the room, including Zetterberg, Kronwall, Nielsen, Abdelkader, Ericsson, etc...
Why do they need more "veteran leadership"?
What happened to 3 to 5 young players he claimed he expects before he was given the extension?

Only thing I can think of is the prospects are not developing as planned. Just think of the defensive prospect pool we had 3 or 4 years ago... Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Almquist, Backman and Jensen. Now we only have one of those players left, Jensen, and he isn't much at all... really a 7th on a good team.

 

[StargateSG1]

Only thing I can think of is the prospects are not developing as planned. Just think of the defensive prospect pool we had 3 or 4 years ago... Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Almquist, Backman and Jensen. Now we only have one of those players left, Jensen, and he isn't much at all... really a 7th on a good team.

I call BS...
Veterans had every excuse and slack imaginable, while younger players were benched for 1 simple mistake.
Was it Sproul who got benched for a mistake after scoring 2 goals?
Can't remember.

I am a firm believer in "motivation".
Those kids in the AHL and all other leagues aren't stupid.
They know that their journey to the NHL is severely impeded, even if they are ready.
I think some of the players stop trying their hardest, knowing they have to jump through flaming hoops to get a fair shot, while undeserving veterans get a pass.
How the hell are you supposed to "compete for spots" that don't exist by default?

 

[Claypool]

So, explain something to all of us...
With so many other veterans in the room, including Zetterberg, Kronwall, Nielsen, Abdelkader, Ericsson, etc...
Why do they need more "veteran leadership"?
What happened to 3 to 5 young players he claimed he expects before he was given the extension?

Vanek playing 60 games while they figure out where players like Zadina, Rasmussen and Svechnikov are in their pro development isn't a detriment. If you don't think the young players will benefit having Vanek in the lineup then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[StargateSG1]

Vanek playing 60 games while they figure out where players like Zadina, Rasmussen and Svechnikov are in their pro development isn't a detriment. If you don't think the young players will benefit having Vanek in the lineup then I don't know what to tell you.

You did not answer the questions I posted...
What does it say about the rest of the veterans?
What the hell has Vanek ever won?
Vanek has an NTC, BTW, so he is taking someone's spot for the entire season.

 

[dragonballgtz]

I call BS...
Veterans had every excuse and slack imaginable, while younger players were benched for 1 simple mistake.
Was it Sproul who got benched for a mistake after scoring 2 goals?
Can't remember.

I am a firm believer in "motivation".
Those kids in the AHL and all other leagues aren't stupid.
They know that their journey to the NHL is severely impeded, even if they are ready.
I think some of the players stop trying their hardest, knowing they have to jump through flaming hoops to get a fair shot, while undeserving veterans get a pass.
How the hell are you supposed to "compete for spots" that don't exist by default?

I agree with you but that still doesn't dispel the fact that our picks haven't really worked out. To crap more on the defensive prospects of the past just look at the picks before the most recent bunch of failures... Smith, Meech, Lashoff, Kindl.

 

[Claypool]

You did not answer the questions I posted...
What does it say about the rest of the veterans?
What the hell has Vanek ever won?
Vanek has an NTC, BTW, so he is taking someone's spot for the entire season.

Vanek will not be here past the trade deadline. He simply wants to have more control so he doesn't wind up on teams like Columbus or Florida to finish the season. I'm not sure how else to explain this to you.

Having Zadina in the lineup all 82 games will probably lead to more wins. Why people are complaining about Vanek is beyond me. But let's keep going around in circles, folks. I got all night.

 

[StargateSG1]

I agree with you but that still doesn't dispel the fact that our picks haven't really worked out. To crap more on the defensive prospects of the past just look at the picks before the most recent bunch of failures... Smith, Meech, Lashoff, Kindl.

To me, it seems they have no clue how to develop D.
While Smitty is a head case, I'd let him roam free, while paired with a stay at home D.

 

[StargateSG1]

Vanek will not be here past the trade deadline. He simply wants to have more control so he doesn't wind up on teams like Columbus or Florida to finish the season. I'm not sure how else to explain this to you.

Having Zadina in the lineup all 82 games will probably lead to more wins. Why people are complaining about Vanek is beyond me. But let's keep going around in circles, folks. I got all night.

This is why I don't come here often, exercise in futility...
Fact... Wings didn't need another veteran taking a roster spot.
Everything else is just lame excuses.

 

[Claypool]

This is why I don't come here often, exercise in futility...
Fact... Wings didn't need another veteran taking a roster spot.
Everything else is just lame excuses.

Ok, so play Zadina all season and win more games? Fine. Then don't complain when the Red Wings aren't tanking like you desperately want them to. Do you see how backwards this logic is? You want the kids to play but you also don't want to win games? That's not how it works.

 

[StargateSG1]

Ok, so play Zadina all season and win more games? Fine. Then don't complain when the Red Wings aren't tanking like you desperately want them to. Do you see how backwards this logic is? You want the kids to play but you also don't want to win games? That's not how it works.

You have it all backwards...Zadina on the roster means excitement for the fans, even with Zadina, they will be bad, but he possibly makes the games watchable again.
I'd rather the kids make mistakes and learn from them, than Vanek's and Green's of the world at this point.
While watching every game, every season for years, they were better than sleeping pills and alcohol most of last season, to put you to sleep.

 

[Claypool]

You have it all backwards...Zadina on the roster means excitement for the fans, even with Zadina, they will be bad, but he possibly makes the games watchable again.
I'd rather the kids make mistakes and learn from them, than Vanek's and Green's of the world at this point.
While watching every game, every season for years, they were better than sleeping pills and alcohol most of last season, to put you to sleep.

Ok, so yeah...you're not making sense. Teams gunning for the 1st overall pick aren't supposed to fun to watch. If they are, that means they're winning.

Remember, this is what everyone wanted. You don't get to complain about having to watch a terrible on-ice product. This is what losing teams do. Better get used to it.

 

[StargateSG1]

Ok, so yeah...you're not making sense. Teams gunning for the 1st overall pick aren't supposed to fun to watch. If they are, that means they're winning.

Remember, this is what everyone wanted. You don't get to complain about having to watch a terrible on-ice product. This is what losing teams do. Better get used to it.

So Vanek makes us more compete-able, according to Kenny..
Got it!

 

[Pavels Dog]

You have it all backwards...Zadina on the roster means excitement for the fans, even with Zadina, they will be bad, but he possibly makes the games watchable again.
I'd rather the kids make mistakes and learn from them, than Vanek's and Green's of the world at this point.
While watching every game, every season for years, they were better than sleeping pills and alcohol most of last season, to put you to sleep.

Wings were probably the most ”exciting” bottom 5 team last year.

It’s just hard to be that bad and at the same time be fun to watch.

 

[StargateSG1]

Wings were probably the most ”exciting” bottom 5 team last year.

It’s just hard to be that bad and at the same time be fun to watch.

Yeah, well, 80 million dollars doesn't buy you much anymore, eh?