Ken Holland has been rebuilding through the draft for nearly 15 years

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
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just for clarity

its also possible dahlin sucks to start the year with buffalo and with so much hype his confidence could be in tatters

and oh man... imagine if that had happened to McDavid?

it's a real shame the Oilers ruined Draisaitl by bringing him up for half a year after his draft when he wasn't ready

he was so promising too before he lost all his confidence
 

jkutswings

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Jul 10, 2014
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ESPN was rough on Detroit in comparing rebuilding efforts around the league:

NHL rebuild rankings: Which teams are closest to contending?

"Draft pick forecast: The Red Wings own all their picks through the fourth round in the next three drafts, and own the Islanders' second-round pick in 2019 and the Golden Knights' third-rounder in 2020.


"The strategy: Let us know when you locate one.

"The Red Wings missed the playoffs in consecutive seasons for the first time since 1983. That futility ended the following season when Steve Yzerman arrived in Motown, but there isn't anything resembling that kind of transformative player on the Red Wings' roster or in their system. The Gustav Nyquist generation has yielded to the Dylan Larkin generation, which will yield to the Rasmussen and Zadina generation up front.

"But the foundational defenseman the Red Wings have been seeking since the retirement of Nicklas Lidstrom still eludes them. At the very least, coach Jeff Blashill has said he will defer to younger players when it comes to ice time if a roster spot is between a newbie and a veteran. "I say that because we need different results, and part of having different results is improving internally, and that can come with new guys being in spots," he told the Detroit Free Press.


"Is it working? It's a roster with more players older than 34 (six) than under the age of 24 (five), so to call this a team in transition would be putting it mildly. It's also a team that currently has $2.828 million in cap space and has entrusted the general manager who got them in this pickle (Ken Holland) with getting them out of it.


"Estimated return to relevance: This is a team that needs to get worse before it gets better, purging the roster of veterans and cap space, and then hoping a combination of the draft and shrewd veteran acquisitions can position it as a contender. But the current management hasn't inspired much confidence to that end. There's way too much loyalty to veterans past their expiration date or, failing that, an overvaluing of them."
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
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ESPN was rough on Detroit in comparing rebuilding efforts around the league:

NHL rebuild rankings: Which teams are closest to contending?

"Draft pick forecast: The Red Wings own all their picks through the fourth round in the next three drafts, and own the Islanders' second-round pick in 2019 and the Golden Knights' third-rounder in 2020.


"The strategy: Let us know when you locate one.

"The Red Wings missed the playoffs in consecutive seasons for the first time since 1983. That futility ended the following season when Steve Yzerman arrived in Motown, but there isn't anything resembling that kind of transformative player on the Red Wings' roster or in their system. The Gustav Nyquist generation has yielded to the Dylan Larkin generation, which will yield to the Rasmussen and Zadina generation up front.

"But the foundational defenseman the Red Wings have been seeking since the retirement of Nicklas Lidstrom still eludes them. At the very least, coach Jeff Blashill has said he will defer to younger players when it comes to ice time if a roster spot is between a newbie and a veteran. "I say that because we need different results, and part of having different results is improving internally, and that can come with new guys being in spots," he told the Detroit Free Press.


"Is it working? It's a roster with more players older than 34 (six) than under the age of 24 (five), so to call this a team in transition would be putting it mildly. It's also a team that currently has $2.828 million in cap space and has entrusted the general manager who got them in this pickle (Ken Holland) with getting them out of it.


"Estimated return to relevance: This is a team that needs to get worse before it gets better, purging the roster of veterans and cap space, and then hoping a combination of the draft and shrewd veteran acquisitions can position it as a contender. But the current management hasn't inspired much confidence to that end. There's way too much loyalty to veterans past their expiration date or, failing that, an overvaluing of them."

Coyotes being #2 and ahead of us is ridiculous... and I say that as a big Keller and Chychrun fan.
 

Winger98

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Coyotes being #2 and ahead of us is ridiculous... and I say that as a big Keller and Chychrun fan.

I'm not sure about that. Galchenyuk and Grabner were good adds up front. If their blueline and goalie can stay healthier this year, they don't have a horrible group. And the article seemed to point towards becoming a playoff team as the goal. I think Arizona is closer to that than us, largely because their blueline is just way better.
 
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Run the Jewels

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Does not take into account drafting position... and ignoring drafting position to analyze team drafting is "flawed" at best.
Ken Holland is the guy who has traded 1st round draft picks for multiple lower picks. If he's a great drafter it would be reflected in those extra picks. I know it's tough to acknowledge but he's been mediocre at best since the lockout.
 

Run the Jewels

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Yep, shows the skills of Jim Nill.

Only mistake Kenny ever did was to trust him.
If Nill was so bad then why didn't Holland give more early draft picks to Hakan? At least he has a pretty good track record with mid-round picks. I'm guessing there's an excuse for that as well. At least he's got the stealth tank now. Perhaps drafting will improve! ;)
 

Run the Jewels

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This will be a cool thread to revisit in 4 years.
I look forward to Ken Holland being the GM in Seattle in four years. No ill will towards the guy, it's simply a case of him drafting his way into the bottom 5 in the league. If he wants to be in Seattle to be closer to home I sincerely hope it happens.
 

kliq

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Dec 17, 2017
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I look forward to Ken Holland being the GM in Seattle in four years. No ill will towards the guy, it's simply a case of him drafting his way into the bottom 5 in the league. If he wants to be in Seattle to be closer to home I sincerely hope it happens.

Has he ever publicly indicated interest in this job? Or is this just wishful thinking from the anti Holland posters?
 

Run the Jewels

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Has he ever publicly indicated interest in this job? Or is this just wishful thinking from the anti Holland posters?
The Zetterberg Era mentions it quite often and he likes to talk about how connected he is so I assume there must be someone somewhere who has told him this. I would not classify him as being a Holland critic or basher, I think he is generally quite sympathetic to the organization as a whole and Holland in particular.
 

kliq

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Dec 17, 2017
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The Zetterberg Era mentions it quite often and he likes to talk about how connected he is so I assume there must be someone somewhere who has told him this. I would not classify him as being a Holland critic or basher, I think he is generally quite sympathetic to the organization as a whole and Holland in particular.

I guess you never know, but I see Holland as a lifer (similar to JD).
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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Has he ever publicly indicated interest in this job? Or is this just wishful thinking from the anti Holland posters?

Abel to Yzerman - Kukla's Korner

via Steve Simmons of the Toronto Sun,
Mark Hunter will have at least two options available when mid-July hits and he’s available to join another NHL team. Lamoriello has interest in him with the Islanders. But word around now is that Detroit GM Ken Holland would be able to offer Hunter the same job he had in Toronto with a promise of being the next GM of the Red Wings. Holland, apparently, has serious interest in being involved with the Seattle expansion team, which would open the door for Hunter.​
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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Like that.

Kenny either to upstairs or up to Northwest.

BTW, that original article was updated June 4th, almost 2 months ago, so nothing new. Same rumour we heard before.
 

Nut Upstrom

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Dec 18, 2010
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If Nill was so bad then why didn't Holland give more early draft picks to Hakan? At least he has a pretty good track record with mid-round picks. I'm guessing there's an excuse for that as well. At least he's got the stealth tank now. Perhaps drafting will improve! ;)

I look forward to Ken Holland being the GM in Seattle in four years. No ill will towards the guy, it's simply a case of him drafting his way into the bottom 5 in the league. If he wants to be in Seattle to be closer to home I sincerely hope it happens.

Still beating that drum? Holland just came off of what most feel to be a very successful draft. I mean we could sit and bemoan the team selecting McCollum and Ferraro years ago, but at some point it's just not relevant to the discussion or the direction they are now taking.

Drafting has improved by most accounts; have to wait and see how these kids turn out, but they should be the focus now, not trying desperately to assign every draft failure of the last ten years to Ken Holland while attributing every draft success to the scouts or the management team. Not to be a jerk, but the broken record thing is growing tiresome.
 
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jkutswings

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Still beating that drum? Holland just came off of what most feel to be a very successful draft. I mean we could sit and bemoan the team selecting McCollum and Ferraro years ago, but at some point it's just not relevant to the discussion or the direction they are now taking.

Drafting has improved by most accounts; have to wait and see how these kids turn out, but they should be the focus now, not trying desperately to assign every draft failure of the last ten years to Ken Holland while attributing every draft success to the scouts or the management team. Not to be a jerk, but the broken record thing is growing tiresome.
And one draft class (only one month later) does not a turnaround make.

Maybe going forward Detroit keeps drafting better players. But a guy with very inert record of trading will need to do that as well. And manage the cap. And appropriately value veteran players.

Maybe he sticks around and does all that very well. But it's far from a given.
 

Nut Upstrom

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Dec 18, 2010
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And one draft class (only one month later) does not a turnaround make.

Maybe going forward Detroit keeps drafting better players. But a guy with very inert record of trading will need to do that as well. And manage the cap. And appropriately value veteran players.

Maybe he sticks around and does all that very well. But it's far from a given.

I agree, there are no givens when it comes to the draft, but as of this moment it seems like we've had a very successful draft. Hopefully that becomes a trend.
I think we're, for the most part, all aware of past draft mistakes. I really don't see the purpose in bringing them up again and again and again. I suppose that is why I've avoided this thread until today, I found here pretty much what I expected to find here, but in fairness to the rest of you, this would be the place to voice those opinions on those topics, so I'll apologize for suggesting someone stop discussing what this thread is intended to discuss.

Bowing out of this thread/discussion now, I don't think I realized where I was posting when I made my initial comment. Apologies Run the Jewels.
 
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ricky0034

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And one draft class (only one month later) does not a turnaround make.

Maybe going forward Detroit keeps drafting better players. But a guy with very inert record of trading will need to do that as well. And manage the cap. And appropriately value veteran players.

Maybe he sticks around and does all that very well. But it's far from a given.

especially when literally the year before was what looks to be one of the worst draft classes he's ever had
 

Pavels Dog

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especially when literally the year before was what looks to be one of the worst draft classes he's ever had
We shouldn’t overrate a draft from a month ago but also shouldn’t underrate a draft from just a year ago.
Doesn’t even matter if 8 picks turn out garbage if we get 2-3 NHLers. And on the flip side it doesn’t matter if a draft yields 10 great prospects if none become good NHLers.
 

Henkka

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We shouldn’t overrate a draft from a month ago but also shouldn’t underrate a draft from just a year ago.
Doesn’t even matter if 8 picks turn out garbage if we get 2-3 NHLers. And on the flip side it doesn’t matter if a draft yields 10 great prospects if none become good NHLers.

2 NHLrs per draft is enough to keep any team competitive.

3 NHLrs per draft, when even 1-2 are elite on a 5-year period, becomes a contender on a long run.
 
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njx9

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Feb 1, 2016
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We shouldn’t overrate a draft from a month ago but also shouldn’t underrate a draft from just a year ago.
Doesn’t even matter if 8 picks turn out garbage if we get 2-3 NHLers. And on the flip side it doesn’t matter if a draft yields 10 great prospects if none become good NHLers.

Is your bar for a successful draft after a bottom ten finish actually "a couple of guys who play in the NHL"?

You might be more pessimistic about our scouts than anyone else on this board.
 

Pavels Dog

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Is your bar for a successful draft after a bottom ten finish actually "a couple of guys who play in the NHL"?

You might be more pessimistic about our scouts than anyone else on this board.
2-3 guys with long NHL careers is a good draft. Obviously you hope for at least one star.
 
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njx9

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2-3 guys with long NHL careers is a good draft. Obviously you hope for at least one star.

In your original post, you never mentioned anything about "long NHL careers". I'm glad you're moving the goal posts, now. Additionally, getting 2-3 Glendenings in a draft where you finished bottom 10 is awful. Either the talent in the draft was awful, or you badly misused your top two picks and failed at every level of scouting.

The bar is *unbelievably* low around here.
 

Pavels Dog

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In your original post, you never mentioned anything about "long NHL careers". I'm glad you're moving the goal posts, now. Additionally, getting 2-3 Glendenings in a draft where you finished bottom 10 is awful. Either the talent in the draft was awful, or you badly misused your top two picks and failed at every level of scouting.

The bar is *unbelievably* low around here.
”NHLers” to me is guys with legit NHL careers. I don’t see Ryan Sproul as an NHLer.
2-3 Glendenings is the low, low end of what I’m talking about. At that point probably 2 of them don’t even fit into our roster. It’s kind of a hyperbolic example. Speaking specifically about ’17 that would not be a good result, but I don’t see the ceiling of Ras being Glendening.
 

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