Ken Holland End of Season Press Conference

[kliq]

Of all the people here arguing with me on a constant basis, you do so without being snide and aggressive. So I respect that.

My bone of contention is that I think there was a way to ATTEMPT to maintain the Red Wings elite status while rebuilding. The fall might have been inevitable, but we'd be in a much better place.

Thanks, I try to show everyone respect even if I disagree with them.

I will agree with this for the most part. Had we accepted a re-build earlier, we would be in a better place now. I do think the decline was inevitable though.

 

[Pavels Dog]

and it will probably wind up being as big a disappointment as that was

Only disappointment is if we drop 3 spots. That would suck. Anything else is awesome.

 

[kliq]

Only disappointment is if we drop 3 spots. That would suck. Anything else is awesome.

So if we finished 5 worst, is 8th the worst we can pick?

 

[newfy]

Yep, this is what some of us have argued since 2012. Hell, our own prospects who are dirt cheap can often replace these guys the pro-Holland people consider *irreplaceable*. The most salient example was Nyquist being called up and keeping the playoff steak alive when essential MEN like Cleary, Sammy, Bert and Tootoo were pretty much useless.

There is no downside to having cap dollars available and decent prospects to trade in order to work the trade angle and better yourself when a team needs cap relief. None.

I would say I'm very middle ground on for/against Holland but reading some of these posts makes me wanna bang my head against the wall. Who the hell has ever said any of those guys are irreplaceable? Its made up crap like that thats making this board harder and harder to come read. Yes Nyquist was a good example of overripening a player for too long. But did anyone actually want Nyquist up and playing in the role that Tootoo had? The wings were a lot better back then, they operated differently then they do now so why do these points keep getting beaten on like a dead horse. Holland is on record talking about how they want Rasmussen on the team next year when hes still junior eligible, Larkin came up early, theres talk about Cholowski making the team. Get over what happened 5 years ago when the wings were still contenders and quit beating the dead horse already

The wings are loyal to a fault sure, but Cleary was a key player in a stanley cup win. Essential, no but a key top 6 physical player that year. Players get paid when they win cups, thats why for every person that chirps Chicago for having Toews contract I laugh at. They got 3 cups outta him at a bargain thats how the NHL works. Did Holland give out way too many bad contracts, definitely. But you dont need to lie about what people are saying and calling guys like Tootoo essential, you sound ridiculous trying to make a point like that

 

[Pavels Dog]

So if we finished 5 worst, is 8th the worst we can pick?

Yep!

 

[kliq]

I would say I'm very middle ground on for/against Holland but reading some of these posts makes me wanna bang my head against the wall. Who the hell has ever said any of those guys are irreplaceable? Its made up crap like that thats making this board harder and harder to come read. Yes Nyquist was a good example of overripening a player for too long. But did anyone actually want Nyquist up and playing in the role that Tootoo had? The wings were a lot better back then, they operated differently then they do now so why do these points keep getting beaten on like a dead horse. Holland is on record talking about how they want Rasmussen on the team next year when hes still junior eligible, Larkin came up early, theres talk about Cholowski making the team. Get over what happened 5 years ago when the wings were still contenders and quit beating the dead horse already

The wings are loyal to a fault sure, but Cleary was a key player in a stanley cup win. Essential, no but a key top 6 physical player that year. Players get paid when they win cups, thats why for every person that chirps Chicago for having Toews contract I laugh at. They got 3 cups outta him at a bargain thats how the NHL works. Did Holland give out way too many bad contracts, definitely. But you dont need to lie about what people are saying and calling guys like Tootoo essential, you sound ridiculous trying to make a point like that

100% agree with the bold. What's happening is a person is taking an opposing argument, taking it to an extreme using hyperbole in order to make their argument sound better.

 

[newfy]

100% agree with the bold. What's happening is a person is taking an opposing argument, taking it to an extreme using hyperbole in order to make their argument sound better.

Yep! and theres a lot of people that cant separate the fact that while Mike Illitch and the streak were alive there was a clear difference in managements approach compared to now. It might not be perfect like I said, but its clearly different and people want to bring shit up from like 7 years ago to make their points or then exaggerate and act like people called Tootoo or Samuelsson essential players to make a point that some people are pro holland, when thats clearly never happened. Its just getting old quick, I might not be around here much longer if it keeps up

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I agree

we should not bring up things that happened five or more years ago, good or bad equally.

 

[Shaman464]

Some things:

1. Cleary wasn't the reason why Hossa couldn't come back. Holland took a gamble on a guy that looked to be as good as Hossa. Hindsight is 20/20 on that one, but at the time very few people faulted him.

2. Holland bringing Sammy, Bert, Tootoo, Weiss, etc. over playing young players was a mistake, but it wasn't one that didn't have logic behind it. Going with known entities when your goal is making the playoffs is going to increase your odds of achieving said goal. I think it was a poor idea, but it wasn't illogical. Same with the trades to keep the team in contention.

3. I am going into the next 2 years as an agnostic. He needs to shed some of his worst tendencies (keeping knowns, instead of making trades/letting players walk, etc), but he has shown that he at least can see the team is no where near a playoff team.

4. The Sheahan stuff is pretty off the wall. I don't think it was all in his head like some have suggested, but he also clearly needed a change of scenery. Anyone thinking he'd score 30+ points on the Wings without playing with Larkin and Z is crazy. Everyone would hate him and would bitch about him not being traded. It wasn't the best trade, but whatever, its done.

 

[Dotter]

I think the most likely scenario that played out went something like this.

"We just missed the playoffs for the first time in 25 years. Adding an experienced defenseman with a couple of cups should help stabilize the blue line and help push Detroit to the other side of the bubble."

Kenny treated their first playoff miss as a one off and thought Daley was going to be the difference.

Kenny mortgaging the future so that he could keep the streak going for a few extra years was all on Kenny. The Ilitch family gave Holland complete autonomy and only got involved when Kenny thought it would help. Like when Mike Ilitch tried to recruit Suter.

What? He mortgaged the future? Lol. Is this post for real?

 

[Claypool]

2. Holland bringing Sammy, Bert, Tootoo, Weiss, etc. over playing young players was a mistake, but it wasn't one that didn't have logic behind it.

What young players are we talking about here?

 

[Shaman464]

What young players are we talking about here?

Around 11-12? Nyquist and Tatar shouldn't have played a combined 18 games to that point. Same with 12-13 where they both only were on the team half the season.

 

[Claypool]

Around 11-12? Nyquist and Tatar shouldn't have played a combined 18 games to that point. Same with 12-13 where they both only were on the team half the season.

in 2011-12 the Red Wings finished with 102 points and were Top 10 in scoring and goals against. Who cares about Nyquist or Tatar at this point? No way Babcock is playing 20 year old rookies with significant top 6 minutes.

 

[Shaman464]

What? He mortgaged the future? Lol. Is this post for real?

If you can't see Kenny definitely made short sighted moves to keep the streak alive than it'll be hard to continue this. And he definitely traded away prospects and picks for short term success. There is a logic behind it, no one should think he's a bumbling fool, but that type of strategy does come with downsides. The biggest one is that the farm system went to hell and Detroit was no longer able to replace the talent they lost with equal talent from drafting or trades.

 

[Shaman464]

in 2011-12 the Red Wings finished with 102 points and were Top 10 in scoring and goals against. Who cares about Nyquist or Tatar at this point? No way Babcock is playing 20 year old rookies with significant top 6 minutes.

The point is that without knowing what they had, and without being willing to take risks, its easy to set yourself up with the 'bird in the hand' mentality. Part of the reason why Detroit got as bad as it has is because it counted on players routinely surpassing their draft positions. Without accessing that in the NHL, many players were left in the AHL, where they dominated for years on end, only to come to the NHL and not make any impact. The reason why we should care is that a lot of decisions about the organization and it's future based on very incomplete information. This includes trading away center depth in the minors, not more aggressively developing defensemen and so on. Also 102 points was good for 7th best in the NHL. And part of a clear downward trend. But I bet that doesn't get addressed by you, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Edit: Grammar.

 

[Winger98]

in 2011-12 the Red Wings finished with 102 points and were Top 10 in scoring and goals against. Who cares about Nyquist or Tatar at this point? No way Babcock is playing 20 year old rookies with significant top 6 minutes.

Agree about going into 11/12, but 11/12 was also the last year for Lids and Homer, and Hudler walked in the off-season. Going into a summer where another lockout was expected (and happened), it was a good time to do a bit of a re-set, leave some spots open, and just use some kids for a short season.

 

[Claypool]

Agree about going into 11/12, but 11/12 was also the last year for Lids and Homer, and Hudler walked in the off-season. Going into a summer where another lockout was expected (and happened), it was a good time to do a bit of a re-set, leave some spots open, and just use some kids for a short season.

Nyquist and Tatar weren't high first round picks. Both players were a long shot to even make the NHL. They needed extended time in the minors. In 2012-13 they won the Calder Cup, a first for the organization. Their development time in Grand Rapids had zero long-term effect on their NHL potential. They developed into exactly what they were supposed to.

Part of the reason why Detroit got as bad as it has is because it counted on players routinely surpassing their draft positions. Without accessing that in the NHL, many players were left in the AHL, where they dominated for years on end, only to come to the NHL and not make any impact.

What players are you talking about? Give specifics.

 

[HockeyinHD]

As time goes along, it certainly seems like the incredibly capitalistic approach the Wings took to delaying their rebuild becomes more and more evident. They patched it together to max their profits in a bad building with a bad lease until they got a new barn, then lit the team on fire. Now they're making around as much money sucking as they made when they were great (not on the hockey side, but in total building ops profits), and it would not surprise me in the least to see them making a bunch more.

Now they can be leisurely about their approach to a rebuild because there aren't any financial pressures on them anymore. I don't think that means they'll be good at it, given 70+% of teams fail at least once or twice when they try to rebuild (especially if you think a rebuild includes ending up going two-ish rounds deep), but they are certainly going to do it.

Heck, in a couple years they might be scraping the salary floor. Not next year because the timing of the Larkin and Mantha deals are bad, but in 2019-20 Kronwall, Z, Nyquist and Howard are all likely to be gone. 18 mil off the cap (less recapture on Z, anyway).

 

[Shaman464]

Nyquist and Tatar weren't high first round picks. Both players were a long shot to even make the NHL. They needed extended time in the minors. In 2012-13 they won the Calder Cup, a first for the organization. Their development time in Grand Rapids had zero long-term effect on their NHL potential. They developed into exactly what they were supposed to.



What players are you talking about? Give specifics.

Jurco, XO, Sproul, Pulkks, Sheahan, Emmerton, Mursak, Smith, Smith, Pottelberghe, Pearson, Marsh, Axelsson, Alqvist, and I can literally go on all night on players Detroit media, including media paid by the org, have hyped as the next big thing and weren't nearly as good. Detroit counted on draft pick performing above their draft position and did a poor job of evaluating them because of the 'overripe' mentality. And how many of these severely hyped players made much, if any real impact for Detroit.

 

[Claypool]

Jurco, XO, Sproul, Pulkks, Sheahan, Emmerton, Mursak, Smith, Smith, Pottelberghe, Pearson, Marsh, Axelsson, Alqvist, and I can literally go on all night on players Detroit media, including media paid by the org, have hyped as the next big thing and weren't nearly as good. Detroit counted on draft pick performing above their draft position and did a poor job of evaluating them because of the 'overripe' mentality. And how many of these severely hyped players made much, if any real impact for Detroit.

I assure you no one in the media was hyping up Adam Marsh. You're literally complaining about a 7th round draft pick not making it. This organization isn't being held back because they could't find room for Jan Mursak.

This might be the dumbest post I've read on here in awhile.

 

[Shaman464]

I assure you no one in the media was hyping up Adam Marsh. You're literally complaining about a 7th round draft pick not making it. This organization isn't being held back because they could't find room for Jan Mursak.

This might be the dumbest post I've read on here in awhile.

You should re-read some of yours then, because you have me beat by a country mile. But not withstanding, you got nothing, you can pick one name you dislike, but yet can't address the broader points. And worst of all is you're picking on something literally most people at this point agree on. Even Holland has said that the drafting recently hasn't been nearly as good as it has in the past. And the point you refuse to address, and keep trying to avoid is that the modality that Detroit had going into the last year was that they could find players that over perform their draft position, and yet haven't given a majority of them good looks in the NHL until literally the last possible moment. Then they give up on most of them before they get a fair chance. This has lead Detroit to count on a contradictory position of not wanting to play prospects because they don't know how they will perform, but won't trade them for pieces they need to compete long term because they aren't sure that it won't come back to haunt them.

And, most teams don't write puff pieces about 7th rounders; Forward Adam Marsh capitalizes on second chance to salvage career, become Red Wings prospect

But its funny that you get so bent out of shape about a post that mostly defends Holland.

 

[Winger98]

Nyquist and Tatar weren't high first round picks. Both players were a long shot to even make the NHL. They needed extended time in the minors. In 2012-13 they won the Calder Cup, a first for the organization. Their development time in Grand Rapids had zero long-term effect on their NHL potential. They developed into exactly what they were supposed to.

If it had zero long term effect on their potential, they should have been up earlier. Their being up also means we likely don't sign Sammy/Tootoo/Bert, which would have been a big positive for this club in those few years.

 

[Dotter]

The NHL is a cap world and people blaming Ken Holland for not sucking sooner? In 2014/15 Wings were a 100 point team. Not often (nearly ever in the history of NHL) GMs blow up their 100 point team to go "all-in" for a tank. That's absurd.

Under the circumstances, real life circumstances, KH did exactly what he should have done. He did not mortgage the future for a small chance to win. He traded prospect [hockey] players that had no future on the team what-so-ever. Big deal! Ken Holland had aquired more free draft picks than the middling bottom 6 players he traded (Janmark/Jarnkrok).

Not having a competative team in the regular season and playoffs sucks, but it's nature of the beast thanks to your boy, Gary Bettman. It's what he and the NHL think-tanks wanted. And they got it! Now we have to pay our dues so other teams that can't even have natural ice skating ponds outside in the winter time get their shot.

 

[Pavels Dog]

And the point you refuse to address, and keep trying to avoid is that the modality that Detroit had going into the last year was that they could find players that over perform their draft position, and yet haven't given a majority of them good looks in the NHL until literally the last possible moment. Then they give up on most of them before they get a fair chance.

Teams have people watching prospects every step of the way, including practice and off-ice. Guys that aren't given a "good look" in the NHL most likely don't deserve it. Guys that are given up on are most likely worth giving up on (as can be seen by the vast majority of prospects we've given up amounting to exactly nothing.

many players were left in the AHL, where they dominated for years on end, only to come to the NHL and not make any impact.

Who fits this criteria? Nyquist and Pulkkinen who got about 2 seasons in GR, with 30+ games in the NHL where they had the chance to lock up a job? Tatar maybe, but he wasn't quite dominating imo.

 

[kliq]

Not sure if this fits here, but I was reading the Leafs boards and its really no different then here. So many fans saying that Lou and Babs need to be fired, Lou is an idiot for not trading away JVR/Bozak at the TDL etc. etc. I think it just goes to show you that it doesn't matter what you do as a GM or where your team is, you are never going to please your entire fan-base, its literally impossible. I can't believe people think that Lou is an idiot for not trading away his leading goal scorer when the Leafs were a lock to make the playoffs (we're not talking Blues/Stasny here).

I can see why GM's ignore the fans, you're always going to have people acting irrationally.

Before someone says it, this is not to imply Holland doesn't make mistakes or that some of the criticism isn't justified. Its just making the point that fans sometimes have unrealistic expectations.