Kari Lehtonen vs Marc Andre Fleury

[miss hockey]

Edit: I should point out that this is a response to both Taxman and pepper.

I'll begin my response with the LAUNDRY LIST of arguments you just aren't responding to. 1) the stats debate. You tried to argue that because Lehtonen has better stats, he's a better goalie. I guess that makes Roman Cechmanek better than Martin Brodeur. 2) Fleury outperformed LEhtonen at the 2003 WJCs... While he was a year younger. In a big game situation. 3) Fleury was absolutely DOMINANT in the NHL while Lehtonen was still cutting his teeth in the AHL (again, Fleury was a year younger). 4) Fleury's decline wasn't entirely his fault. In fact, he was often phenomenal and still let in 4-5 goals because the defense in front of him was ATROCIOUS. He was SO good in fact, he was considered a Vezina candidate until his collapse. 5) If Braydon Coburn was 3 inches shorter we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Where would you like to start with your responses?

1 - Stats are all we have big boy, you know, it's amazing but Roy and Brodeur and co have the best stats of their era. Each induvidual stat, by itself, is merely an indicator.. alongside 19 other stats, it tells the whole story.
2 - 2003? Wait, in 2003 Fleury played on home soil, in front of a home crowd, behind a better team. So for one, he had no jet-lag.. and what was he doing at that point of his life? Going to school and playing hockey?
Damn, poor Kari, he had to play hockey at the highest possible level, for Jokerit, whom by the way, he'd already carried to the championship trophy not too long ago. Oh, at the same time he had 16hr days of working his ass off in the army. Oh yeah, and he had to sit on a plane for 10hrs to come to that damn tournament, then adjust from the time zone difference..
2003 isn't something you can compare the two head to head with, AHL stats for this year are much closer as an indication, even so it's still shooting in the dark.
3 - dominant? at the start of the season? Don't you love the start of the season, even a Beer league team could find itself leading the NHL while every other team is still so damn rusty it's not funny..
Oh yeah, there's another word for that - flash in the pan.
4 - again now, you're inventing things. Calder, not vezina. next!


[/QUOTE]

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

Vicious Vic [/QUOTE] The point is REALLY simple. HFBoards are extremely fickle about prospects. See above. One bad performance and all of a sudden an 18 year old kid is futureless. AND hype can shift either way. Read a few pages back for another poster's point on the Luongo-DiPietro situation.

Not the same situation. Luongo was the best prospect at the time. The Comparison should be that Lehtonen is Luongo and Fleury is DiPietro. Lehtonen like Luongo didn't go first and were the best drafted prospects. Fleury isn't and most people agree that lehtonen is the better prospect.

 

[Jacob]

But despite Dipietro's experience, it seems that most polls between Fleury and Dipietro are very one-sided towards Fleury. I think he's more like Lehtonen and Luongo than he is like Dipietro, even if he's still clearly behind the former two.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

But despite Dipietro's experience, it seems that most polls between Fleury and Dipietro are very one-sided towards Fleury. I think he's more like Lehtonen and Luongo than he is like Dipietro, even if he's still clearly behind the former two.

People prefer Fleury to DiPietro because if has the upside to be better not because he is better now.

 

[Jacob]

I didn't say otherwise.

That's the same reason people like Lehtonen over Dipietro, isn't it?

 

[bruins4777*]

Who in the right mind would take fleury over lehts?

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

I didn't say otherwise.

That's the same reason people like Lehtonen over Dipietro, isn't it?

Lehtonen is probably not far off DiPietro while DiPietro is still fairly comfortable better than Fleury.

 

[Jacob]

Again, some of that is due to Lehtonen being a year older than Fleury. But you're not posting much in the way of facts, but you seem to take your own opinion as gospel.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

1 - Stats are all we have big boy, you know, it's amazing but Roy and Brodeur and co have the best stats of their era. Each induvidual stat, by itself, is merely an indicator.. alongside 19 other stats, it tells the whole story.

Stats are not all we have, and they tell far from the whole story. We can watch them play, and when that isn't possible, most teams will broadcast games over internet radio. A game summary is better than statistics. Martin Brodeur has average statistics in every colums outside of wins.

2 - 2003? Wait, in 2003 Fleury played on home soil, in front of a home crowd, behind a better team. So for one, he had no jet-lag.. and what was he doing at that point of his life? Going to school and playing hockey?
Damn, poor Kari, he had to play hockey at the highest possible level, for Jokerit, whom by the way, he'd already carried to the championship trophy not too long ago. Oh, at the same time he had 16hr days of working his ass off in the army. Oh yeah, and he had to sit on a plane for 10hrs to come to that damn tournament, then adjust from the time zone difference..
2003 isn't something you can compare the two head to head with, AHL stats for this year are much closer as an indication, even so it's still shooting in the dark.

Am I supposed to feel sorry for him? Poor, poor Kari. I don't understand what relevance this has.

3 - dominant? at the start of the season? Don't you love the start of the season, even a Beer league team could find itself leading the NHL while every other team is still so damn rusty it's not funny..
Oh yeah, there's another word for that - flash in the pan.

You don't get to watch much NHL hockey in Helsinki do you? It wasn't the case of a 'beer league' team doing well, it was the case of an NHL team looking like a 'beer league' team and Fleury STILL playing amazing with no help from his defense. Did you even see Fleury play in the NHL?

4 - again now, you're inventing things. Calder, not vezina. next!

No, he's really not. When talking about him, commentators would mention 'Vezina Candidate'. Ofcourse it was early, but that's how good he was for the first two months.

 

[Taxman]

I stole this from the AHL forum.

THN just named Lehtonen the best prospect in the AHL today (and not MA Fleury ).

THN names Lehtonen best prospect in AHL

 

[Jacob]

I don't know how this changes anything. Personally, I have never argued that Fleury is behind Lehtonen right now.

 

[puckstopper101]

shaquille o'neal

lol... i think i'd want both of them

 

[bruins4777*]

Stats are not all we have, and they tell far from the whole story. We can watch them play, and when that isn't possible, most teams will broadcast games over internet radio. A game summary is better than statistics. Martin Brodeur has average statistics in every colums outside of wins.


You don't get to watch much NHL hockey in Helsinki do you? It wasn't the case of a 'beer league' team doing well, it was the case of an NHL team looking like a 'beer league' team and Fleury STILL playing amazing with no help from his defense. Did you even see Fleury play in the NHL?

No, he's really not. When talking about him, commentators would mention 'Vezina Candidate'. Ofcourse it was early, but that's how good he was for the first two months.

I'll respond paragraph by paragraph

I'll agree with you here, stats aren't usefull in most cases. But in the case of fleury vs. lehts its so easy to do stats. Brodeur's stats suck because of his puckhandling, because HE MAKES THE TRAP. Lehtonen uses lots of puckhandling, fleury doesn't. Lehtonen doesn't puckhandle as much as brodeur, turco, or dipietro, however he still puckhandles at a greater amount than fleury. Also add in how much fleury f's up the puck, then you only further lehtonen's case. But aside from that. Lehtonen obviously blows out fleury at the stat game. Lehtonen's stats have dominated fleury's on a MUCH poorer team. Fleury has a host of great prospect lehtonen has one 3rd line nhler and no other real nhl prospect. Yet lehtonen dominates fleury statwise and playwise.

9 games my friend, 9 games.

Once again 9 games. Those showed potential, and he has potential i saw it. I saw him mug the bruins time and time again in a 3-2 overtime win for the pens. I saw him play great at times. But i also saw his sieve side show through. He has potential to be nearly as good as lehts, but the question is his head. Lehtonen has remarkable poise and tehnical skill. Fleury has a shattered confidence, broken head, and constantly screws up techincally.Lehtonen is the obvious choice. I could go on longer but i'll hold back.

 

[Jacob]

At the AHL level prospects do NOT equal team success. You of all people should realize this, since you seem to follow the league closely.

Look at the ridiculous amount of veterans on Chicago's roster- and granted Wilkes-Barre has a number of veterans too. Bohonos, Maltais, Larose, Greg freaking Hawgood for crying out loud. My guess is they're one of the oldest teams in the AHL.

The baby Penguins are a young, skilled team that has it's fair share of defensive breakdowns. I've never seen Chicago play so I can't comment on what their style is, but I would think their number of NHL/AHL veterans probably allows them to play tighter defense than what they're given credit for, and from my standpoint at least makes them equal to the baby Penguins on paper, if not a bit better (defensively).

I can't speak for Lehtonen, or Toivonen, or Leclaire or a lot of other AHL netminders, but I know for sure that Fleury's stats look merely average mostly because of the team in front of him. The baby Penguins can simply dominate for 10-15 straight minutes, than they might simply snooze for another 3-4. Their goalies don't see a ton of shots, but what shots they do see are quality chances. Often breakaways, two-on-ones or point-blank chances in front.

Let's look at what Fleury IS doing this year; He's taking the starting job away from Chiodo and has clearly separated himself as the team's go-to netminder, despite some decent competition behidn him. Outside of a few games there have been no extended breakdowns in Fleury's game, nothing to think he isn't back on track. He's their best option when the team wants a win.

 

[Taxman]

It is pretty clear that Wilkes-Barre plays better defense in front of Fleury than Chicago does in front of Lehtonen.

Lehtonen has faced 32.72 shots on goal per game he has played.
Fleury has only faced 26.65 shots on goal per game he has played.

 

[Jacob]

That's not clear at all from those stats. I just got done saying that the few shots Fleury does see are generally high-quality scoring chances.

 

[bruins4777*]

At the AHL level prospects do NOT equal team success. You of all people should realize this, since you seem to follow the league closely.

Look at the ridiculous amount of veterans on Chicago's roster- and granted Wilkes-Barre has a number of veterans too. Bohonos, Maltais, Larose, Greg freaking Hawgood for crying out loud. My guess is they're one of the oldest teams in the AHL.

The baby Penguins are a young, skilled team that has it's fair share of defensive breakdowns. I've never seen Chicago play so I can't comment on what their style is, but I would think their number of NHL/AHL veterans probably allows them to play tighter defense than what they're given credit for, and from my standpoint at least makes them equal to the baby Penguins on paper, if not a bit better (defensively).

I can't speak for Lehtonen, or Toivonen, or Leclaire or a lot of other AHL netminders, but I know for sure that Fleury's stats look merely average mostly because of the team in front of him. The baby Penguins can simply dominate for 10-15 straight minutes, than they might simply snooze for another 3-4. Their goalies don't see a ton of shots, but what shots they do see are quality chances. Often breakaways, two-on-ones or point-blank chances in front.

Let's look at what Fleury IS doing this year; He's taking the starting job away from Chiodo and has clearly separated himself as the team's go-to netminder, despite some decent competition behidn him. Outside of a few games there have been no extended breakdowns in Fleury's game, nothing to think he isn't back on track. He's their best option when the team wants a win.

Interesting...well do you know what chicago does? They breakdown EVERY second. Travis Roche is a decent offensive dman, but has little shot at the NHL. J.p. vigier has had flashes of brilliance, but just like in the NHL is showing off inconsistency. They have a bunch of old people, but they are old guys who can't do much in the AHL and will never get a chance at the NHL unless they go to a team that has injuries as much as the kings. Chicago is the AHL panthers, but FAR worse in that they don't have any true brightspots outside of lehts.

Toivenen plays in front of a team that has skill, but has problems getting the puck out of their own zone. They aren't completely helpless, but they have no true puckrusher outside of dalman who has issues at times. They can be the victim of sloppy passing at times. His team isn't horrid, but he is, most times, the last defense. Juricina is the only truely consistent dman on that team defensively.

Leclaire plays on one of the most inconsistent teams in the league that has the inability to score.

 

[Taxman]

Jacob, lol, that is right, only Fleury faces high quality shots. Lehtonen only sees baby shots in front of the net right? Come on. TRY to be a little objective here.

2 nights ago Lehtonen had to face 47 frigging SHOTS on GOAL. Are you really trying to say that Lehtonen has good defense playing in front of him? Chicago has a poor defensive team, simple as that. Chicago has one of the highest shots on goals allowed ratio in all of the AHL.

That is one of the reasons Lehtonen leads the AHL in saves with 766, because he faces so many shots every time he plays.

Fleury has a much better defensive team playing in front of him. He definitely has it easier than Lehtonen does.

 

[bruins4777*]

Jacob, lol, that is right, only Fleury faces high quality shots. Lehtonen only sees baby shots in front of the net right? Come on. TRY to be a little objective here.

2 nights ago Lehtonen had to face 47 frigging SHOTS on GOAL. Are you really trying to say that Lehtonen has good defense playing in front of him? Chicago has a poor defensive team, simple as that. Chicago has one of the highest shots on goals allowed ratio in all of the AHL.

I think what he's trying to say is that, while the shots may not be the same, don't take anything away from fleury, because he faces a decent amount of hard shots as well.

Personally i feel its obvious that lehts faces harder shots, but i think he's just trying to say that fleury faces hard shots also.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, lol, that is right, only Fleury faces high quality shots. Lehtonen only sees baby shots in front of the net right? Come on. TRY to be a little objective here.

I am being extremely objective. I'm hardly making ANY speculation about Lehtonen's play this season, merely defending Fleury's.

2 nights ago Lehtonen had to face 47 frigging SHOTS on GOAL. Are you really trying to say that Lehtonen has good defense playing in front of him?

Nope. Never said that. Just saying that the team in front of Fleury is NOT kind to goaltender statistics.
Guess what? Fleury saw 44 shots just a week or so ago. It happens. Fleury gave up 4 goals but was excellent in the win by all accounts (did not see the game personally).

I think what he's trying to say is that, while the shots may not be the same, don't take anything away from fleury, because he faces a decent amount of hard shots as well.

At least someone gets it.

 

[Taxman]

I just checked the stats:

Chicago is 27th out of 28 teams in shots allowed per game, at 33.9.

Wilkes-Barre is 8th out of 28 teams in shots allowed per game, at 28.37.

I would say that paints Wilkes-Barre as a pretty damn good defensive team and Chicago as a horrid defensive team.

 

[Jacob]

Wow.

You are utterly hopeless.

 

[Taxman]

How? For using actual statistical evidence to help support my point? That is such a horrible thing to do. How dare I.

 

[bruins4777*]

Wow.

You are utterly hopeless.

I concur.

 

[bruins4777*]

How? For using actual statistical evidence to help support my point? That is such a horrible thing to do. How dare I.

You can't judge defenses on stats. Florida allowed more shots per game than the pens, but does that mean the panthers defense is better? No way.

What jacob is trying to demonstrate is that, while the pens allow less shots per game, fleury still faces a high amount of hard shots. He hasn't seen the wolves or lehts play this year, so he doesn't know who faces more hard shots, but there is no way that fleury has an easy job just because he faces a lower amount of shots.

Personally to me, even taking away stats, just go to a wolves game and its obvious how much their D blow.

Also, you can't ONLY say stats. That kind of notion is ridiculous. Brodeur's save percentage were WAY below most of the other top goalies, his gaa was above average but nothing spectacular, and so forth. Yet he is widely regarded as the best goalie around. Why? Because of his puckhandling. He takes away at least 5 to 10 shots a game with his pokechecking, puckhandling, and such. That is what makes brodeur so special. That is why he is the best in the league. Raycroft's stats are better than brodeur's? Yes by a nice amount, but is brodeur better? HELL NO. I could make a case for luongo being better than brodeur, but it would be nearly as strong as the opposite. Stats never tell the story. Roy's stats aren't all that great, but look at his play. Cujo's with the oilers were pretty sad, but there is a reason every edmonton fan tells story's about cujo's feats. Over and over again stats DO NOT tell the story.