Kari Lehtonen vs Marc Andre Fleury

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Amen evil king

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Pepper said:
Yes but the point remains that simply because Fleury was in the NHL last season while LEhtonen was in the AHL didn't make him better regarded, it was because of the ****-poor goaltending of the Pens why Fleury was there in the first place. Had Pens had a decent goalie he would have been playing in Q from the start.

At the time Fleury was a year younger, and playing at an outstanding level in the NHL. An awful lot of the 'swing voters' would of been favouring Fleury at that point ('if an 18 year old can do this good in the NHL, how can a goalie that's supposedly better than him still be stuck in the AHL?'), and thus why many would argue that at the time Fleury was more highly regarded..
 

Taxman

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Grave77digger said:
Lehto is in his 2nd season on the AHL...
Fleury is in his 1st season in the AHL...

Lehtos rookie stats----------Fleurys rookie stats (so far)
2003/2004 Chicago----------2004/2005 Wilkes-Barre/Scranton
39 GP-----------------------19 GP
2192:25---------------------1095:38
20 wins 14 losses 2 ties------11 wins 5 loses 2 ties
3 SO------------------------1 SO
2.41 GAA--------------------2.52 GAA
1101 saves------------------455 saves
0.926 sv%-------------------0.908 sv%

Say what you want but Lehtonens rookie stats arent earth shattering and are only marginally better. Of course this comparison is incomplete until Fleury finishes his rookie campaign.

What are you talking about? A .908 save percentage vs a .926 save percentage is an enormous difference. It isn't Lehtonen's fault that he saw way more shots per game than Fleury has. That is the Wolf's defenseman's fault.

Lehtonen clearly had a better year last season than Fleury is having so far this year. It isn't close.
 

Jeff Goldblum

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Taxman said:
What are you talking about? A .908 save percentage vs a .926 save percentage is an enormous difference. It isn't Lehtonen's fault that he saw way more shots per game than Fleury has. That is the Wolf's defenseman's fault.

Lehtonen clearly had a better year last season than Fleury is having so far this year. It isn't close.


I will believe you when goalie stats start becoming extremely indicitative of goalie performance. You read into these stats as if they are the spoken word of the gods, when in fact stats, especially goalie stats, do not tell the whole story.
 

Taxman

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Stats sure paint a better picture than anything else though. What are we supposed to go on? How good their hair looks?
 
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CRUNK JUICE

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I've stands all I can stands, I can't stands no more. Since we're on the subject of stats, try this on for size....


GOALIE A in 2001-2002
GP W L T GAA SV%
46 24 13 6 2.05 .921



GOALIE B IN 2001-2002
GP W L T GAA SV%
73 38 26 9 2.15 .906



Goalie A is Roman Cechmanek. Goalie B is Martin Brodeur. I guess since stats ALWAYS tell the whole story, that means you'd rather have Cechmanek than Brodeur. I guess Brodeur has a ways to go before he catches Cechmanek's skill level, huh?


GOOD ARGUMENT. STATS ALWAYS TELL THE WHOLE STORY.
 

Taxman

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I have watched both play and Lehtonen definitely impressed me more. Fleury looked horrible last year in the World Juniors..he crumbled under pressure. Lehtonen has proven time and time again that he is a big game goalie..he has exceled in tournaments and championship runs. Lehtonen was amazing in last year's AHL playoffs. Fleury played pretty poorly in the QMJHL playoffs last year AFAIK. Lehtonen already has a rep for being a big game goalie. I have seen Fleury have a tendency to allow a run of goals after allowing one in..losing focus.

And most every scouting report favors Lehtonen over Fleury. Lehtonen has a big size advantage on Fleury and is just as fast. He positions himself better than Fleury. He also seems mentally tougher.

Nevermind all of that though. Are you really trying to say that stats, and REAL results, don't matter? Are you saying that success early on statistically isn't usually a good indicator for future performance? Why then do we pay so much attention to goals scored, points scored, etc of prospects? Why do we care how many points guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are putting up?

Results matter. The fact that Lehtonen stops more goals from scoring than Fleury IS important, and IS telling. Why would something that important be discounted as being inconsequential? Is it because it is Lehtonen who the stats favor and not Fleury? Would you guys really be downplaying the importance of stats if Fleury were the one with the better save percentage? I have a feeling not.

Stats are RESULTS. Lehtonen stops a noticeably higher percentage of shots on goals from scoring than Fleury does. IMO, that is a very important thing to look at when trying to compare the two players...actual results from actual play.
 
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Jeff Goldblum

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Did you read Vicious Vic's post? At all?

You're not worth arguing with. Your logic is flawed. I agree with the result (that Lehtonen is better now), but the logic through which you concluded this is off base.
 

Jacob

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Pepper said:
Yes but the point remains that simply because Fleury was in the NHL last season while LEhtonen was in the AHL didn't make him better regarded.
Then what IS the reason why people felt Fleury was better than Lehtonen at this time last year?
 

CRUNK JUICE

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Taxman said:
I have watched both play and Lehtonen definitely impressed me more. Fleury looked horrible last year in the World Juniors..he crumbled under pressure. Lehtonen has proven time and time again that he is a big game goalie..he has exceled in tournaments and championship runs. Lehtonen was amazing in last year's AHL playoffs. Fleury played pretty poorly in the QMJHL playoffs last year AFAIK. Lehtonen already has a rep for being a big game goalie. I have seen Fleury have a tendency to allow a run of goals after allowing one in..losing focus.

And most every scouting report favors Lehtonen over Fleury. Lehtonen has a big size advantage on Fleury and is just as fast. He positions himself better than Fleury. He also seems mentally tougher.

Nevermind all of that though. Are you really trying to say that stats, and REAL results, don't matter? Are you saying that success early on statistically isn't usually a good indicator for future performance? Why then do we pay so much attention to goals scored, points scored, etc of prospects? Why do we care how many points guys like Ovechkin and Crosby are putting up?

Results matter. The fact that Lehtonen stops more goals from scoring than Fleury IS important, and IS telling. Why would something that important be discounted as being inconsequential? Is it because it is Lehtonen who the stats favor and not Fleury? Would you guys really be downplaying the importance of stats if Fleury were the one with the better save percentage? I have a feeling not.

Stats are RESULTS. Lehtonen stops a noticeably higher percentage of shots on goals from scoring than Fleury does. IMO, that is a very important thing to look at when trying to compare the two players...actual results from actual play.



Wow.... It's in one ear and out the other with you, isn't it? Again, I ask you, if stats are ALWAYS an absolute, 100%, foolproof indicator of results, does that mean you'd take Roman Cechmanek over Martin Brodeur. If so, get your head checked. I'm not saying stats never matter, just that viewing them as the end-all, be-all in judging a player's performance is pretty foolish.

Also, don't forget that Fleury was DOMINATING in the NHL (as mentioned earlier, Darren Pang had him listed as a possible Vezina candidate) in October and November of 2003. 1.95 GAA and .943 SV%. He was 18. Kari Lehtonen was still cutting his teeth in the AHL. How's that for some real stats?

As for Fleury's "big game potential," tell me again what happened in the 2003 WJC's? I seem to recall him outplaying a certain Finnish goalie who's now the toast of HFBoards. And before you fire back with "well he didn't get the job done in the finals," riddle me this: how many WJC championship rings does Lehtonen have?

The fact of the matter is if Braydon Coburn is 6'1" instead of 6'5", we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I'll close by politely asking you to watch (or at least listen to) some of Fleury's games with WBS this year (you CLEARLY haven't) and then try again. :)
 

Pepper

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Lehtonen32 said:
At the time Fleury was a year younger, and playing at an outstanding level in the NHL. An awful lot of the 'swing voters' would of been favouring Fleury at that point ('if an 18 year old can do this good in the NHL, how can a goalie that's supposedly better than him still be stuck in the AHL?'), and thus why many would argue that at the time Fleury was more highly regarded..

At THIS point last year Fleury had already stunk up the place and he wasn't more highly regarded anymore. October-november yes but in december-january the public opinion was pretty much different once again.
 

Pepper

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Jacobv2 said:
Then what IS the reason why people felt Fleury was better than Lehtonen at this time last year?

Most of those people were Pens & Q fans, most of the 'unbiased' fans saw them equal or Lehtonen being better.
 

Jacob

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Not a chance. A lot of prospect rankings such as McKeens ranked Fleury better, too.

At THIS point last year Fleury had already stunk up the place and he wasn't more highly regarded anymore
How had he "stunk up the place"?
 

CRUNK JUICE

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Pepper said:
Most of those people were Pens & Q fans, most of the 'unbiased' fans saw them equal or Lehtonen being better.

I'm gonna have to call B.S. on this one. Nearly EVERYONE (Pens fans, Q fans, MOST fans) were blown away by Fleury's performance and were talking about him as the better of the two.

I also recall quite a few polls where Fleury won by a fair margin. All it does is show how fickle these boards are. Let's wait 6 more months and see if Lehtonen is still the golden boy. Watch out for this Rask kid up in Finland. :yo:
 

Pepper

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Vicious Vic said:
I'm gonna have to call B.S. on this one. Nearly EVERYONE (Pens fans, Q fans, MOST fans) were blown away by Fleury's performance and were talking about him as the better of the two.

But this happened during october-november period, the hype was over in december IIRC.
 

Pepper

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Pens4ever said:
Well, since you are neither a Pens' fan, or a Q fan, you must be a level headed, 'unbiased' poster, right?

My opinion is that at this point last year they were about even in the 'hype' department, Fleury was the hot ticket during october-november while Lehtonen was da bomb during the spring.

And yes, I try to remain as objective as possible.
 

CRUNK JUICE

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Pepper said:
My opinion is that at this point last year they were about even in the 'hype' department, Fleury was the hot ticket during october-november while Lehtonen was da bomb during the spring.[/QUPTE]

Which would put the "hype department" in Lehtonen's corner at the moment? It could very easily shift again to someone like Tuuka Rask or another unnamed prospect. As mentioned earlier, these boards are EXTREMELY fickle and this stuff changes monthyl. Look into your magic crystal ball, Nostrodamus, and tell us what you see in 10 years. I'll give you 10-1 odds you aren't 100% dead on.

And yes, I try to remain as objective as possible.

And what a fine job you've done. :shakehead
 

Pepper

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Vicious Vic said:
Which would put the "hype department" in Lehtonen's corner at the moment?

Probably slightly, yes.

Vicious Vic said:
It could very easily shift again to someone like Tuuka Rask or another unnamed prospect.

Rask has done absolutely nothing compared to Lehtonen, I'll start hyping Rask the moment he shines in the FEL as a 18-year old taking his team to championship with brilliant performance & numbers. So far he's pretty far from that.

Vicious Vic said:
As mentioned earlier, these boards are EXTREMELY fickle and this stuff changes monthyl. Look into your magic crystal ball, Nostrodamus, and tell us what you see in 10 years. I'll give you 10-1 odds you aren't 100% dead on.

Huh??? What the hell are you talking about, I have never said anything else. My point was that at this point last year Fleury was not more highly regarded than Lehtonen and you seem to have a problem with that but please, spare your hyperboles & off-topic whining to someone else.

Vicious Vic said:
And what a fine job you've done. :shakehead

lmao, now that's a good one. As a Pens fan you're probably one of the least qualified posters to make that call but keep trying.
 

Taxman

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Lehtonen's hype is based on his performance and talent. It isn't based on some sort of cyclical hype thing. Many scouts have said Lehtonen is the best goal tending prospect they have EVER seen (including Don Waddell BEFORE he drafted him).
 

Jaded-Fan

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Taxman said:
Lehtonen's hype is based on his performance and talent. It isn't based on some sort of cyclical hype thing. Many scouts have said Lehtonen is the best goal tending prospect they have EVER seen (including Don Waddell BEFORE he drafted him).

147 posts and climbing, approaching 4,300 looks. That this thread has gone back and forth for this long with no signs of stopping shows that both prospects are worth the arguing over, and seem to be worth the hype. My guess is that most GM's would sell their sainted mothers for either, so while the back and forth is entertaining, I will just tip my hat to both and very much look forward to seeing both battle it out for a couple of decades to come.
 

CRUNK JUICE

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Edit: I should point out that this is a response to both Taxman and pepper.

I'll begin my response with the LAUNDRY LIST of arguments you just aren't responding to. 1) the stats debate. You tried to argue that because Lehtonen has better stats, he's a better goalie. I guess that makes Roman Cechmanek better than Martin Brodeur. 2) Fleury outperformed LEhtonen at the 2003 WJCs... While he was a year younger. In a big game situation. 3) Fleury was absolutely DOMINANT in the NHL while Lehtonen was still cutting his teeth in the AHL (again, Fleury was a year younger). 4) Fleury's decline wasn't entirely his fault. In fact, he was often phenomenal and still let in 4-5 goals because the defense in front of him was ATROCIOUS. He was SO good in fact, he was considered a Vezina candidate until his collapse. 5) If Braydon Coburn was 3 inches shorter we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Where would you like to start with your responses?

Now, onto the line-by-line.

Pepper said:
Probably slightly, yes.

Rask has done absolutely nothing compared to Lehtonen, I'll start hyping Rask the moment he shines in the FEL as a 18-year old taking his team to championship with brilliant performance & numbers. So far he's pretty far from that.

The point wasn't about how good Rask is, it's about how fickle these boards are. One good performance by him on a major stage and I GUARANTEE he'll be the next huge thing on here. A year ago (last NOVEMBER) Fleury was touted as the second coming of Jesus. A few bad games and one big blunder, now he's one of the board's favorite whipping boys.

Huh??? What the hell are you talking about, I have never said anything else. My point was that at this point last year Fleury was not more highly regarded than Lehtonen and you seem to have a problem with that but please, spare your hyperboles & off-topic whining to someone else.

The point is REALLY simple. HFBoards are extremely fickle about prospects. See above. One bad performance and all of a sudden an 18 year old kid is futureless. AND hype can shift either way. Read a few pages back for another poster's point on the Luongo-DiPietro situation.

lmao, now that's a good one. As a Pens fan you're probably one of the least qualified posters to make that call but keep trying.

Says the Finnish guy. Pot to kettle, "what's up, b*tch?" Truth be told, I'm really not that high on Fleury (see my avatar). I just think he takes WAY too much flack around here.
 

Pepper

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Vicious Vic said:
I'll begin my response with the LAUNDRY LIST of arguments you just aren't responding to. 1) the stats debate. You tried to argue that because Lehtonen has better stats, he's a better goalie.

1) I haven't claimed that but I'll respond anyway. Better stats don't make him a worse goalie, that's for sure.

Vicious Vic said:
2) Fleury outperformed LEhtonen at the 2003 WJCs... While he was a year younger. In a big game situation.

Lehtonen was even more dominant in the 2002 WJCs than Fleury the year later.

Vicious Vic said:
3) Fleury was absolutely DOMINANT in the NHL while Lehtonen was still cutting his teeth in the AHL (again, Fleury was a year younger).

Lehtonen had better 4 games in the NHL than Fleury had.

Vicious Vic said:
4) Fleury's decline wasn't entirely his fault. In fact, he was often phenomenal and still let in 4-5 goals because the defense in front of him was ATROCIOUS.

Wasn't entirely but he takes a huge part of the blame.

Vicious Vic said:
He was SO good in fact, he was considered a Vezina candidate until his collapse.

Vezinas are not even considered in november.

Vicious Vic said:
5) If Braydon Coburn was 3 inches shorter we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Ok, I missed this one completely. What the hell are you talking about??

Vicious Vic said:
The point wasn't about how good Rask is, it's about how fickle these boards are. One good performance by him on a major stage and I GUARANTEE he'll be the next huge thing on here. A year ago (last NOVEMBER) Fleury was touted as the second coming of Jesus. A few bad games and one big blunder, now he's one of the board's favorite whipping boys.

I know all that, I have never denied that. Regardless of that, Fleury wasn't more highly regarded last year at this point like you and someone else claimed. End of discussion. And he most certainly ain't my whipping boy.

Vicious Vic said:
Says the Finnish guy. Pot to kettle, "what's up, b*tch?" Truth be told, I'm really not that high on Fleury (see my avatar). I just think he takes WAY too much flack around here.

I said they were regarded about equal this time last year, you had a problem with that. Btw, you really show your maturity there.
 
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