Kadri Thread

[Pookie]

the funny thing is we all know "role player" is a term used mainly for 4th line calibre players who happen to have a very specific use - like faceoffs or penalty killing or hitting or fisticuffs. The term isn't really even used for good 3rd liners. Let alone good 2nd liners like Kadri.

but pookie thinks he's hoodwinking us dullards.

Funny if I say "role player" you think I'm disparaging his contribution. You say "shut down specialist" (which is the specific role I am referring to) and that's just fine.

Peter Zezel is arguably one of the best "role players" in the last 20+ years. It's not an insult to his memory or contribution to discuss him in that way.

 

[zeke]

he's not a "shut down specialist", he's an excellent two-way 2nd liner who can play in all situations - the opposite of a role player.

 

[Pookie]

he's not a "shut down specialist", he's an excellent two-way 2nd liner who can play in all situations - the opposite of a role player.

Well not PK situations. You equating that with an "enforcer" is strange.

Funny too in that I think I specifically read "shut down specialist" in this thread.

Was this thread not littered with comments about being asked to shut down the other team's top line?

That's kind of a role is it not?

 

[zeke]

this thread is littered with all sorts of silly descriptions.

like, say, "role player".

 

[Randy Randerson]

Well not PK situations. You equating that with an "enforcer" is strange.

Funny too in that I think I specifically read "shut down specialist" in this thread.

Was this thread not littered with comments about being asked to shut down the other team's top line?

That's kind of a role is it not?

I think the term "role player" typically applies to someone who is pigeonholed to a niche by their own capabilities - PP QB defensemen with limited 5v5 or PK acumen (Marc Andre Bergeron/Mark Streit), offensive forwards who are weak defensively (Alex Semin maybe?), Shut down/PK specialist defensemen who lack the talent to play an offensive role (Barret Jackman), Shut down/PK specialist forwards who also don't have the offensive talent to play up in the lineup (Marcus Kruger)

Those guys are/were all useful players when used in the right capacity, but couldn't play in other situations

So we may be asking Kadri to fill the "shutdown centre" role, but I think it's very fair to say that he's not confined to it by his skillset - I have no issue with Kadri playing a top 6 centre or LW role indefinitely if that's where the talent gap was. So I think his ability to play the shutdown role should be a feather in his cap rather than what we use to classify him

 

[Purity*]

this thread is littered with all sorts of silly descriptions.

like, say, "role player".

I can literally apply the "role player" description to just about every single player in the league?

Look at Ovechkin, guy's just a god damn role player. His assist totals the last 100 games have been total crap. All he does is score goals, just a role player.

 

[4thline]

I think the term "role player" typically applies to someone who is pigeonholed to a niche by their own capabilities - PP QB defensemen with limited 5v5 or PK acumen (Marc Andre Bergeron/Mark Streit), offensive forwards who are weak defensively (Alex Semin maybe?), Shut down/PK specialist defensemen who lack the talent to play an offensive role (Barret Jackman), Shut down/PK specialist forwards who also don't have the offensive talent to play up in the lineup (Marcus Kruger)

Those guys are/were all useful players when used in the right capacity, but couldn't play in other situations

So we may be asking Kadri to fill the "shutdown centre" role, but I think it's very fair to say that he's not confined to it by his skillset - I have no issue with Kadri playing a top 6 centre or LW role indefinitely if that's where the talent gap was. So I think his ability to play the shutdown role should be a feather in his cap rather than what we use to classify him

Exactly. In my time in hockey there are two (somewhat contradictory usages)

Specialist as you described above
or
vague term for easily replaceable fairly vanilla depth guy that you like ei, "he's a good role player"

Neither describes a versatile top 50 offensive C. It's grasping at straws for those that clung so long to the idea that a mutually agreed upon last chance to earn more money was actually a player with one foot out the door.

 

[Pookie]

I can literally apply the "role player" description to just about every single player in the league?

Look at Ovechkin, guy's just a god damn role player. His assist totals the last 100 games have been total crap. All he does is score goals, just a role player.

Let's not be so literal.

For established players that have moved beyond ELC status, the contract clearly defines the role and expectations does it not?

Teams compare players and contributions and arrive at fair market value. The difference between a cap max player and a player well below half the cap max should be clear to everyone shouldn't it?

 

[Pookie]

Exactly. In my time in hockey there are two (somewhat contradictory usages)

Specialist as you described above
or
vague term for easily replaceable fairly vanilla depth guy that you like ei, "he's a good role player"

Neither describes a versatile top 50 offensive C. It's grasping at straws for those that clung so long to the idea that a mutually agreed upon last chance to earn more money was actually a player with one foot out the door.

Did you talk with dicey yet?

 

[Randy Randerson]

Exactly. In my time in hockey there are two (somewhat contradictory usages)

Specialist as you described above
or
vague term for easily replaceable fairly vanilla depth guy that you like ei, "he's a good role player"

Neither describes a versatile top 50 offensive C. It's grasping at straws for those that clung so long to the idea that a mutually agreed upon last chance to earn more money was actually a player with one foot out the door.

Ya I agree, I think the second usage is wrong though. To me if a guy is a "role player", that should literally mean he's capable of playing a specific role. And there have been some excellent role players like Visnovsky/Adam Foote/Kovalev/etc, but guys who could only do the thing they're good at or they woukd fail

If anything, it looks like Kadri is becoming a very versatile guy for sure. Before this year, I think there was an argument that he was sort of Bozakish and might only be suitable for a scoring line role. At this point I don't know if there's a place in the lineup that he can't play 5v5 - maybe the only place he can't is 1C on a good team, I think he's even fine as a 1LW if the linemates are good. We'd be wasting him in a 4th line role, but no doubt he could do it

So he's looking like the opposite of a "role player" to me

 

[4thline]

Did you talk with dicey yet?

Did you figure out the difference between hyperbolic assessment of single season performance and literal claims of about a player's career body of work in a historic context are not in fact the same thing?


Face it man, you've got nothing to stand on.

Facts show Kadri as a top 40-50 offensive C
Facts show that he is signed for less than comparables in that range
Facts show that he has demonstrated the ability perform offensively with less than ideal support while playing a shutdown role.


Everything points to him being a versatile +level top 6 C, hard to replace and a core member of this team but you're too proud to back down.

 

[FreeBird]

Playing with Kadri

Is were Wingers go to die, remember when they put him between Kessel and JVR and the result was a 10 game pointless streak. Babs said he was going to give him more ice time by playing him on the PK as well. After watching that for a couple of games that was quickly vanquished to the OOP's file. 4.1 million for a 3rd line centre is ridiculous he's strictly a shoot first centre who rarely hits the Net.

 

[zeke]

Center PPG

2015-2017 (min 20gms)

1. C.McDavid 1.14
2. S.Crosby 1.11
3. T.Seguin 1.02
4. E.Malkin 0.97
5. N.Backstrom 0.94
6. J.Thornton 0.93
7. M.Scheifele 0.90
8. S.Stamkos 0.89
9. J.Tavares 0.87
10. A.Kopitar 0.86
11. C.Giroux 0.85
12. E.Kuznetsov 0.85
13. R.Getzlaf 0.84
14. D.Krejci 0.82
15. A.Barkov 0.81
16. J.Carter 0.81
17. R.O'Reilly 0.81
18. A.Matthews 0.80
19. J.Spezza 0.80
20. P.Bergeron 0.76
21. A.Galchenyuk 0.75
22. B.Little 0.74
23. N.MacKinnon 0.74
24. L.Draisatl 0.72
25. R.Johansen 0.72
26. P.Stastny 0.72
27. H.Sedin 0.71
28. D.Stepan 0.71
29. J.Toews 0.69
30. J.Eichel 0.69

31. S.Monahan 0.69
32. V.Trochek 0.69
33. D.Brassard 0.68
34. R.Kesler 0.68
35. A.Wennberg 0.66
36. M.Zibanejad 0.66
37. L.Couture 0.65
38. V.Rask 0.64
39. T.Bozak 0.64
40. N.Kadri 0.63
41. A.Anisimov 0.63
42. M.Koivu 0.63
43. M.Hanzal 0.62
44. M.Ribeiro 0.62
45. H.Zetterberg 0.61

 

[Randy Randerson]

Is were Wingers go to die, remember when they put him between Kessel and JVR and the result was a 10 game pointless streak. Babs said he was going to give him more ice time by playing him on the PK as well. After watching that for a couple of games that was quickly vanquished to the OOP's file. 4.1 million for a 3rd line centre is ridiculous he's strictly a shoot first centre who rarely hits the Net.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, that Kadri is dependent on linemates to produce?

And actually, Kadri is currently the 51st highest paid centre in the NHL: https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active/2017/caphit/all/center

which is bottom 3rd of 2nd line centre money, for which we get borderline 1st line production. Keep in mind that new contracts being signed will be more money, not less (inflation in keeping to the cap), so Kadri's contract average pay rate will very likely be 3rd line centre rate. What we're paying for Kadri today is an absolute steal, his contract is going to be one of the best in hockey barring injury or major regression

Also, $8.7mil is way too much to pay for a 2nd line centre, but it's working out pretty well for Pittsburgh. Just because he plays the role of 3rd liner doesn't make him only good enough to do that - we're just lucky enough to have a very good centre situation going forward

Players should be evaluated in the context of the league rather than just their own teams to determine how their production and cost stacks up

 

[Bill Waters*]

I have to say, I'm impressed with Kadri on the PP this year.

 

[Menzinger]

Well not PK situations. You equating that with an "enforcer" is strange.

Funny too in that I think I specifically read "shut down specialist" in this thread.

Was this thread not littered with comments about being asked to shut down the other team's top line?

That's kind of a role is it not?

In the sense that Marner's "role" is to score goals.

Marner, Matthews, Nylander are a trio of fantastic "role players" following this logic

 

[Menzinger]

Is were Wingers go to die, remember when they put him between Kessel and JVR and the result was a 10 game pointless streak. Babs said he was going to give him more ice time by playing him on the PK as well. After watching that for a couple of games that was quickly vanquished to the OOP's file. 4.1 million for a 3rd line centre is ridiculous he's strictly a shoot first centre who rarely hits the Net.

He made Winnik and Leo look pretty good last year.

For a "shoot first" centre he also seems to get a fair amount of assists every year too...

 

[Bluelines]

Well not PK situations. You equating that with an "enforcer" is strange.

Funny too in that I think I specifically read "shut down specialist" in this thread.

Was this thread not littered with comments about being asked to shut down the other team's top line?

That's kind of a role is it not?

When was the last time legit shutdown defender was kept away form the most defensive situation possible , the PK?

Its like this .... looks like a Porsche, sounds like a Porsche but sure doesn't drive like a Porsche.

Maybe Kadri is reinventing the "mold"... his previous play has justified him been pushed off the 2nd line by rookies, he's not trusted enough to get PK duties but yet scores a a great clip on the 3rd line... could Kadri be the "new" model for a 3rd liner? Pioneer? Maverick? Rebel? Maybe all 3?

Fortunately for us he is untradeable...right Dicey?

 

[saltming]

Center PPG

2015-2017 (min 20gms)

1. C.McDavid 1.14
2. S.Crosby 1.11
3. T.Seguin 1.02
4. E.Malkin 0.97
5. N.Backstrom 0.94
6. J.Thornton 0.93
7. M.Scheifele 0.90
8. S.Stamkos 0.89
9. J.Tavares 0.87
10. A.Kopitar 0.86
11. C.Giroux 0.85
12. E.Kuznetsov 0.85
13. R.Getzlaf 0.84
14. D.Krejci 0.82
15. A.Barkov 0.81
16. J.Carter 0.81
17. R.O'Reilly 0.81
18. A.Matthews 0.80
19. J.Spezza 0.80
20. P.Bergeron 0.76
21. A.Galchenyuk 0.75
22. B.Little 0.74
23. N.MacKinnon 0.74
24. L.Draisatl 0.72
25. R.Johansen 0.72
26. P.Stastny 0.72
27. H.Sedin 0.71
28. D.Stepan 0.71
29. J.Toews 0.69
30. J.Eichel 0.69

31. S.Monahan 0.69
32. V.Trochek 0.69
33. D.Brassard 0.68
34. R.Kesler 0.68
35. A.Wennberg 0.66
36. M.Zibanejad 0.66
37. L.Couture 0.65
38. V.Rask 0.64
39. T.Bozak 0.64
40. N.Kadri 0.63
41. A.Anisimov 0.63
42. M.Koivu 0.63
43. M.Hanzal 0.62
44. M.Ribeiro 0.62
45. H.Zetterberg 0.61

I think a huge issue is that a lot of people don't seem to understand that the job of being a centre is different that that of playing wing.
Wingers are supposed to score while the centre is the ice general: responsible for primarily keeping the puck out of our net. This is why scoring centres are HUGE assets.
Matthews is doing amazing as a rookie centre in the nhl, end of story.

 

[Randy Randerson]

When was the last time legit shutdown defender was kept away form the most defensive situation possible , the PK?

Its like this .... looks like a Porsche, sounds like a Porsche but sure doesn't drive like a Porsche.

Maybe Kadri is reinventing the "mold"... his previous play has justified him been pushed off the 2nd line by rookies, he's not trusted enough to get PK duties but yet scores a a great clip on the 3rd line... could Kadri be the "new" model for a 3rd liner? Pioneer? Maverick? Rebel? Maybe all 3?

Fortunately for us he is untradeable...right Dicey?

Bozak occupies his position on the "2nd" line, not a rookie

Kadri draws the tougher matchups 5v5, so we call that "3rd" line. Bozak is a possession/shot suppression black hole, so I think I would say that Kadri earned the tougher matchups rather than being pushed off a higher line

No player on the "top 2" lines has significant PK time this year (Other than Zach Hyman, and if you're calling Connor Brown one after 1 GP there). Of those who get substantial PP time (more than 1min/game), only Leo Komarov has more than 1min/gm of PK time.

Looks like Kadri is considered a top 6 player for PP purposes over Hyman, who is considered a bottom 6 player in purely offensive situations...not sure that's a knock on Kadri

 

[Menzinger]

Bozak occupies his position on the "2nd" line, not a rookie

Kadri draws the tougher matchups 5v5, so we call that "3rd" line. Bozak is a possession/shot suppression black hole, so I think I would say that Kadri earned the tougher matchups rather than being pushed off a higher line

No player on the "top 2" lines has significant PK time this year (Other than Zach Hyman, and if you're calling Connor Brown one after 1 GP there). Of those who get substantial PP time (more than 1min/game), only Leo Komarov has more than 1min/gm of PK time.

Looks like Kadri is considered a top 6 player for PP purposes over Hyman, who is considered a bottom 6 player in purely offensive situations...not sure that's a knock on Kadri

Exactly.

Babcock is not running with the old school top six bottom six formula.

He's got three lines with the skill spread out, some used in more defensive situations others offensively. And then an energy line.

 

[4thline]

Which year did Kadri score 31 goals again? Or play first line all year?

How did Bryan do when he was matched up against other teams 1st line as a shut down D?

Just curious how they are comparable in your mind?

1. He didn't, but personally I don't hold 9 year old never repeated performances as a particularly strong barometer for comparison

2. Last year, and based on responsibility this year, but is getting less offensive toi due Babs balancing ice time

3. Surface level, very comparable to Kadri at the same age.

4. They've had shockingly similar careers outside of little breaking in as a wing and having an immediate impact, Naz being developed in the A and coming in as a C
http://hockeyviz.com/player/littlbr87
http://hockeyviz.com/player/kadrina90

Just thought I'd I'd bring this back to your attention Bluelines, you seemed to have missed it (twice now)

I'll even go a step further.
From 22-25 (to be fair since Kadri hasn't played his 26/27/28 prime years like Little has

Player A. 275GP 178P 0.647Ppg
Player B. 277GP 160P 0.577Ppg

Though in the interests of disclosure player A did get significantly more favourable usage in the 22 year old season, which responsible for the difference. As well player B had slightly less favourable usage in years 23, and 24, but also got more minutes over all. But yeah. Totally uncomparable. Certainly more than a half step a part.

*repost

 

[Randy Randerson]

Exactly.

Babcock is not running with the old school top six bottom six formula.

He's got three lines with the skill spread out, some used in more defensive situations others offensively. And then an energy line.

Not sure how Kadri is still getting knocked while pacing for a 33 goal/62pt season playing with the 3rd best set of wingers and drawing the toughest matchups while getting underpaid for his services in year 1 of a 6 year contract. To me this is an absolute slam dunk win, even if he settles back to very good 2nd line centre production (while being paid like a below average 2nd line centre)

Total head scratcher, like leaf fans don't believe they can have nice things

 

[Bluelines]

Bozak occupies his position on the "2nd" line, not a rookie

Kadri draws the tougher matchups 5v5, so we call that "3rd" line. Bozak is a possession/shot suppression black hole, so I think I would say that Kadri earned the tougher matchups rather than being pushed off a higher line

No player on the "top 2" lines has significant PK time this year (Other than Zach Hyman, and if you're calling Connor Brown one after 1 GP there). Of those who get substantial PP time (more than 1min/game), only Leo Komarov has more than 1min/gm of PK time.

Looks like Kadri is considered a top 6 player for PP purposes over Hyman, who is considered a bottom 6 player in purely offensive situations...not sure that's a knock on Kadri

Thanks for your reply, really appreciate your posting style.

Is Bozie really the 2nd line though, he plays on the most productive line (do opposing coaches put their role player/checkers out vs Bozies line?), the 1st unit PP and any game I watch they refer to the Bozak line as the Leafs best line, isn't the best line usually your 1st line?

As far as Kadri getting the tougher match ups, he has the 3rd most ATOI for any center on the team, most elite players are in the 18 to 19ish ATOI per game. Where I'm going with this is if he is truly a match up center, shouldn't his ice time, especially at home be close to the ATOI of opposing teams best players? There is a 2 to 3 minute gap in ATOI between Kadri and the better players on the opposing team. Feels like we are putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a beauty queen.

I think what is most impressive about Kadri is his P/60 this year... and the 5 o'clock shadow he was sporting last night.

 

[Mitchy]

lol at thinking you're funny by saying "dicey." Wow, so hilarious.