Kadri Thread

[Purity*]

Thanks for your reply, really appreciate your posting style.

Is Bozie really the 2nd line though, he plays on the most productive line (do opposing coaches put their role player/checkers out vs Bozies line?), the 1st unit PP and any game I watch they refer to the Bozak line as the Leafs best line, isn't the best line usually your 1st line?

As far as Kadri getting the tougher match ups, he has the 3rd most ATOI for any center on the team, most elite players are in the 18 to 19ish ATOI per game. Where I'm going with this is if he is truly a match up center, shouldn't his ice time, especially at home be close to the ATOI of opposing teams best players? There is a 2 to 3 minute gap in ATOI between Kadri and the better players on the opposing team. Feels like we are putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a beauty queen.

I think what is most impressive about Kadri is his P/60 this year... and the 5 o'clock shadow he was sporting last night.

Our best and most proven offensive winger JVR is also behind Hyman and Komarov in ice-time, I wonder what conclusions you draw out of that

 

[Randy Randerson]

Thanks for your reply, really appreciate your posting style.

Is Bozie really the 2nd line though, he plays on the most productive line (do opposing coaches put their role player/checkers out vs Bozies line?), the 1st unit PP and any game I watch they refer to the Bozak line as the Leafs best line, isn't the best line usually your 1st line?

As far as Kadri getting the tougher match ups, he has the 3rd most ATOI for any center on the team, most elite players are in the 18 to 19ish ATOI per game. Where I'm going with this is if he is truly a match up center, shouldn't his ice time, especially at home be close to the ATOI of opposing teams best players? There is a 2 to 3 minute gap in ATOI between Kadri and the better players on the opposing team. Feels like we are putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a beauty queen.

I think what is most impressive about Kadri is his P/60 this year... and the 5 o'clock shadow he was sporting last night.

For sure man, not here to shame anyone

Offensively, yes Bozak is a very legitimate 2nd line centre. He's also an elite faceoff guy. He struggles mightily to get the puck back when he loses it, and to contain the other team's breakins/shots on goal so when he's playing without the puck he's not doing much to help the team win


Kadri plays 22 seconds less than Bozak per gp, I wouldn't call either elite. The matchup game isn't absolute either, it's situationally dependent and the opposing coach gets last change half the time so will try to avoid your matchups (I would think the opposing team would want to match their best line against the Bozak line or the 4th line). And in situations where a faceoff win is important, Bozak is the guy so he'll get rolled for short stints to start a shift. Our highest ice time forward (Matthews) is getting 17:25 of icetime per night vs 16:08 for Bozak and 15:46 for Kadri (Matthews also gets more PP time than the other two, included in his total ATOI), so it looks like a pretty balanced 3 line rollout for Babcock

Anyway I don't see Kadri being our 3rd best centre, I think he just draws the 3rd line matchups because he can play some defense. He's almost an even CF% with his tough assignments, so not at much of a shot attempt deficit with ~3rd line linemates against the other team's top line for the bulk of his icetime

 

[Pookie]

(The usual....)



Facts show that he has demonstrated the ability perform offensively with less than ideal support while playing a shutdown role.

What??? A shutdown role?

zeke et al???

 

[zeke]

kadri indeed does draw the assignment against the other team's top line.


every game.

 

[Bluelines]

Just thought I'd I'd bring this back to your attention Bluelines, you seemed to have missed it (twice now)

I'll even go a step further.
From 22-25 (to be fair since Kadri hasn't played his 26/27/28 prime years like Little has

Player A. 275GP 178P 0.647Ppg
Player B. 277GP 160P 0.577Ppg

Though in the interests of disclosure player A did get significantly more favourable usage in the 22 year old season, which responsible for the difference. As well player B had slightly less favourable usage in years 23, and 24, but also got more minutes over all. But yeah. Totally uncomparable. Certainly more than a half step a part.

*repost

Sorry, eager for validation eh?

1) So Kadri never scored 31? OK so never able to achieve that level of play. Think of it this way, Little wasn't just given the minutes, he earned it, his level of play dictated where he played. Kadri many times had opportunities to play 1st line, for example when Bozie was injured and never rose to that challenge. Its not a slight against Naz, just a fact in the Maple Leaf history book, not everyone is made to be a 1st liner...that is reserved for the really good players.

2) So prime years are subjective based on performance, there is no guarantee that Kadri's prime years are ahead of him or behind him, maybe its right now... if Bryan never scores 31 again, his prime goal scoring year was when he was 21.

3) Although Little had the most difficult ice-time with the best checkers playing vs him, he was able to produce at an impressive clip, I think you established that great checkers make life impossible for 1st lines, right? How did Little ever score so much with such difficult conditions. Kadri rarely warranted the other teams best checkers, having free wheel of the ice, you'd think he'd score more ... I can play the my guy got the toughest ice time game too

So if your looking for a pat on the head or an atta boy, you need to do better research and post a better reply.

 

[4thline]

Sorry, eager for validation eh?

1) So Kadri never scored 31? OK so never able to achieve that level of play. Think of it this way, Little wasn't just given the minutes, he earned it, his level of play dictated where he played. Kadri many times had opportunities to play 1st line, for example when Bozie was injured and never rose to that challenge. Its not a slight against Naz, just a fact in the Maple Leaf history book, not everyone is made to be a 1st liner...that is reserved for the really good players.

2) So prime years are subjective based on performance, there is no guarantee that Kadri's prime years are ahead of him or behind him, maybe its right now... if Bryan never scores 31 again, his prime goal scoring year was when he was 21.

3) Although Little had the most difficult ice-time with the best checkers playing vs him, he was able to produce at an impressive clip, I think you established that great checkers make life impossible for 1st lines, right? How did Little ever score so much with such difficult conditions. Kadri rarely warranted the other teams best checkers, having free wheel of the ice, you'd think he'd score more ... I can play the my guy got the toughest ice time game too

So if your looking for a pat on the head or an atta boy, you need to do better research and post a better reply.

Lol nah not looking for validation, just tired of you ignoring every factual post in the thread.

You do realize that Player A was Kadri, and my discussion of usage was actually on behalf of Little's lower numbers not representing his relative quality.

You made the claim that that Little was head and shoulders better or words to that effect. i have shown that for the entirety of their NHL careers that can be compared by age they are neck and neck.

 

[4thline]

What??? A shutdown role?

zeke et al???

So "the usual" is now a term for "arguments that I cannot refute and choose not to address"

Neat. A little ambiguous for every day use though.

 

[Bluelines]

Our best and most proven offensive winger JVR is also behind Hyman and Komarov in ice-time, I wonder what conclusions you draw out of that

Numbers? Whats THAT all about?

 

[Bluelines]

Lol nah not looking for validation, just tired of you ignoring every factual post in the thread.

You do realize that Player A was Kadri, and my discussion of usage was actually on behalf of Little's lower numbers not representing his relative quality.

You made the claim that that Little was head and shoulders better or words to that effect. i have shown that for the entirety of their NHL careers that can be compared by age they are neck and neck.

Sorry the fourth, its wasn't that I was ignoring you, it was that your post wasn't interesting enough to reply to.

 

[Bluelines]

What??? A shutdown role?

zeke et al???

Seems like there are different standards for you ... that's just wrong... like you post all these facts and truths and SOME posters ignore them.. whats going on with that whole... stuff..?

 

[4thline]

Sorry the fourth, its wasn't that I was ignoring you, it was that your post wasn't interesting enough to reply to.

Makes a lot of sense actually. By and large most people aren't interested in being proven wrong.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Makes a lot of sense actually. By and large most people aren't interested in being proven wrong.

Well put.

 

[Duke Silver]

Makes a lot of sense actually. By and large most people aren't interested in being proven wrong.

Same old Trump-ian act. Get challenged, ignore, pivot, demean, never admit fault. Debate through attrition.

Seems like there are different standards for you ... that's just wrong... like you post all these facts and truths and SOME posters ignore them.. whats going on with that whole... stuff..?

What facts, exactly, have Pookie posted?

You have a loose definition of facts. "Things you say" are not facts. Facts are irrefutable.

 

[Bluelines]

Same old Trump-ian act. Get challenged, ignore, pivot, demean, never admit fault. Debate through attrition. If you could even call this debate.



What facts, exactly, have Pookie posted?

You have a loose definition of facts. "Things you say" are not facts. Facts are irrefutable.

Ahh.. see... your post goes to show SOME people are more interested in character assassination than actually debating a point... comparing me to Trump... aren't you just a little follower... isn't that the flavor of the month... wanna passive aggressively insult someone.... compare him or his post to Trump... how sad... #failing #wrong # throwdukeinjail #hewontgetit

So when a poster attempts to compare a 1st liner to a 3rd liner, turns himself into a pretzel trying to make a point, then draw conclusions on their value, makes assumptions like one players better years are ahead of him .. where's my crystal ball?... well yeah the truth is there's a lot of bias in his post that I chose not to reply to...

 

[Duke Silver]

Ahh.. see... your post goes to show SOME people are more interested in character assassination than actually debating a point... comparing me to Trump... aren't you just a little follower... isn't that the flavor of the month... wanna passive aggressively insult someone.... compare him or his post to Trump... how sad... #failing #wrong # throwdukeinjail #hewontgetit

You're really sensitive just like him, too! Plus you hate facts and conveniently ignore them, retreating back to smugness when pressed on your claims. You've given Diceman a nickname, so how does Donald Jr sound?

Character assassination and condescension: two cornerstones of your (and his) communication policy. Pot meet kettle. You just hate seeing it used against you.

So when a poster attempts to compare a 1st liner to a 3rd liner, turns himself into a pretzel trying to make a point, then draw conclusions on their value, makes assumptions like one players better years are ahead of him .. where's my crystal ball?... well yeah the truth is there's a lot of bias in his post that I chose not to reply to...

That... has nothing to do with my question. Let's practice some of that reading comprehension you've been talking about.

I asked you what facts Pookie has posted. You referred to facts. I'm not seeing any.

Do you suffer from fact-blindness?

 

[4thline]

So when a poster attempts to compare a 1st liner to a 3rd liner, turns himself into a pretzel trying to make a point, then draw conclusions on their value, makes assumptions like one players better years are ahead of him .. where's my crystal ball?... well yeah the truth is there's a lot of bias in his post that I chose not to reply to...

Well if you meant successfully demonstrate that the 22-25 year old seasons of a 26 year old upper echelon 2C are very comparable to those of a player who since that age has emerged as a low end 1C you weren't wrong. I don't think that Kadri will take that step, but has he hasn't played those years yet I didn't want to assume anything (don't have a crystal ball you see ) so made the most apples to apples comparison I could, pitting the entirely of Kadri's full time career against Little's at the same age. You didn't like the result. That's not my fault.

 

[Bill Waters*]

In before lock: good afternoon, good evening, and good night. #i'mwithhim

 

[Bluelines]

You're really sensitive just like him, too! Plus you hate facts and conveniently ignore them, retreating back to smugness when pressed on your claims. You've given Diceman a nickname, so how does Donald Jr sound?

Character assassination and condescension: two cornerstones of your (and his) communication policy. Pot meet kettle. You just hate seeing it used against you.

That... has nothing to do with my question. Let's practice some of that reading comprehension you've been talking about.

I asked you what facts Pookie has posted. You referred to facts. I'm not seeing any.

Do you suffer from fact-blindness?

Dude not sensitive just pointing out how lazy it is to jump on that oh your Donald train so late in the game... call me what ever you want, I personally like Chips the wonder monkey but I'll leave it up to you, apparently name calling is your thing ... so what you are saying is that you are so lax in reading Pookies post you are unable to recall any of the facts he posted, you want someone else do the work for you eh?, Big Dookie lets try this, its a game, I'll post a fact that Pookie posted, then you can post one , then I can, that way you don't look like a lazy poster who just wants me to do all the work, Ok Big Dookie.. is that a deal?

OK here we go, try and keep up Big Dookie:

To be factual, it says the exact same thing about Tyler Bozak.

And what do you know ... it really does say the same thing...

 

[Bluelines]

Well if you meant successfully demonstrate that the 22-25 year old seasons of a 26 year old upper echelon 2C are very comparable to those of a player who since that age has emerged as a low end 1C you weren't wrong. I don't think that Kadri will take that step, but has he hasn't played those years yet I didn't want to assume anything (don't have a crystal ball you see ) so made the most apples to apples comparison I could, pitting the entirely of Kadri's full time career against Little's at the same age. You didn't like the result. That's not my fault.

Not for nothing but when I originally posted the question I asked for defensive forward who is similar to Kadri and you pull out offensive stats to answera a question abut defence... kinda what I mean about turning yourself into a pretzel to prove a point...whenever you are willing to actually answer the question I asked, I'll be here.. take your time or feel free to answer a question I didn't askagain ...

 

[4thline]

Not for nothing but when I originally posted the question I asked for defensive forward who is similar to Kadri and you pull out offensive stats to answera a question abut defence... kinda what I mean about turning yourself into a pretzel to prove a point...whenever you are willing to actually answer the question I asked, I'll be here.. take your time or feel free to answer a question I didn't askagain ...

Actually no, what you asked for was

one player who player in today's NHL, that is similar in skill to Kadri, similar in size, that is recognized as an exceptional defensive forward.

Because you were trying the angle that Kadri couldn't be successful at something he has already shown to be successful at because of his size.

you were presented with a list including
Little, Krejci, Stepan, Datsyuk, Steen, Neilsen, RNH

All players of similar stature to Kadri that are known to be good defensively.

That angle failing you moved the goal posts from "player of similar skill and stature" to "player kadri is just as good as"

Nope try again both of those guys are heads and tails better in almost every category.

following up with the closing question

Just curious how they are comparable in your mind?

To which I showed just how comparable their careers were at common ages, so comparable that when the stats were left unnamed you assumed that the wrong one was Kadri based on me giving credit for the player with the lower numbers for doing so with slightly harder usage.

The problem with moving goalposts is that you can still see the holes in the ground. Pretzel indeed.
Now here's my challenge, prove to me that Kadri is of 3C quality and not 2 league wide.

 

[Bluelines]

Actually no, what you asked for was



Because you were futiling trying the angle that Kadri couldn't be successful at something he has already shown to be successful at because of his size.

you were presented with a list including
Little, Krejci, Stepan, Datsyuk, Steen, Neilsen, RNH

All players of similar stature to Kadri that are known to be good defensively.

That angle failing you moved the goal posts from "player of similar skill and stature" to "player kadri is just as good as"



following up with the closing question


To which I showed just how comparable their careers were at common ages, so comparable that when the stats were left unnamed you assumed that the wrong one was Kadri based on me giving credit for the player with the lower numbers for doing so with slightly harder usage.

The problem with moving goalposts is that you can still see the holes in the ground. Pretzel indeed.

by your standards Bozak = Kadri defensivly then? cause they produce similar , wait not Bozak produces at a better pace so Bozak > Kadri defensively... still trying to figure out what offensive stats have to do with showing how a player is proven defensively .... gotta let me in on that one cause ... that's a new one for me.

I'm not moving any goal posts, you've failed to cross center ice with your comparison. the rules of the game are ya gotta answer the question that was asked... not answer the one you want to answer... So this is the litmus test would fans of any of those players you listed trade them for Kadri straight up?

 

[Errol Swaghammer]

This is the definition of a single person monopolizing the conversation and steering a thread towards a lock.

 

[4thline]

by your standards Bozak = Kadri defensivly then? cause they produce similar , wait not Bozak produces at a better pace so Bozak > Kadri defensively... still trying to figure out what offensive stats have to do with showing how a player is proven defensively .... gotta let me in on that one cause ... that's a new one for me.

I'm not moving any goal posts, you've failed to cross center ice with your comparison. the rules of the game are ya gotta answer the question that was asked... not answer the one you want to answer... So this is the litmus test would fans of any of those players you listed trade them for Kadri straight up?

Except, and stay with me on this one. You never asked about a defensive comparision. You asked for players of similar size and skill that are good defensively.
Size (Check)
Skill (as demonstrated by offensive output) (check)

Now, maybe this is all a miscommunication and you're bad at phrasing questions?

And the bold, while another clear movement of the goalposts, is at least phrased clearly. Kudos.

To Answer:
Neilsen: Easily
RNH: tossup, his production has fallen since relegated to the 2C role and hasn't been much if any better, they might like the cap savings on Kadri's great 2C contract.
Stepan: no
Little: tossup Little has edge in play, but 1 year from UFA leafs don't make that trade.
Krecji: bigger edge in play (prime play), but again the contract may swing it.

But again, the ball is in your court to prove that Kadri is a 3C, despite all evidence to the contrary