Kadri Discussion Thread (Mod Warning Post #576)

[King85Kong]

i can't, to be truthfully honest with you. (because i never knew "bridge contract" was a thing until Subban if we're honest) i just said. give them years.

I don't know if I would want to give Nazem 5 years. not this next contract anyway. but that's me. and if that were the case like trade vs. 5 years and hope for the best, then if it were me, i'd really be thinking about it.

I'm hoping he gets the JVR contract. 5 years at a reasonable cap hit. Done and done.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Some people were saying Frattin was making him look good too a couple years ago.

Its like saying Bozak makes Kessel look good

What a friggen JOKE!

 

[leafstilldeath*]

I for one am all for discussing issues a player is having but sometimes I feel like it goes too far. I think what frustrates me the most is that people that constantly critique him never seem to point out any positives in his game...they just focus on the "negative."

I think the key here is to be objective when discussing players. All players have their issues but that doesn't mean they are not great players to have on your team.

Personally, I think Kadri has improved leaps and bounds since he was first called up in the league - he is stronger (even though people say he is still too weak), he is better defensively, better at faceoffs, carries the play and still draws a heck of a lot of PP's! Those are some very positive things to see...the key is improvement.

I love that management hasn't given up on him, I think he is a great young centermen who will only get better and that is what is so promising!

PS - I love that people think he slacks off and stops trying but then you listen to Spott and he says Kadri is the exact opposite of that lol

Come on man the "crystal ball" is better than "Reality"

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm hoping he gets the JVR contract. 5 years at a reasonable cap hit. Done and done.

hm. this is the way Im thinking about it. (and I fully admit being a bit cranky).

If the CDN Dollar/Salary cap wasn't so in flux - i would totally say for sure go ahead and give a JVR contract, because you buy UFA years (which is an asset) so if it doesn't work out, you could potentially flip him due to the fact you have potential wrapped up neatly.

Why i'm now gunshy (and this could have been mostly because of Carlyle etc), Jake has looked like a hot mess. and that isn't fair on Naz. However. it is something to think about

but i am all about fair choices. Subban bet on himself, and played very well. I think knowing that the president, the player of player development etc is very high on him, that could bode very well in his favour. and justify the contract. and if say DeBoer (or D. Hunter) is hired (both high on him too). well it just makes it all work out nicely, right?

I just personally think - either one can work.
you can give Nazzy a 2 year bridge (again) OR you buy up some ufa years. i guess for me, I don't see why we'd need to pay 5 years when we don't have to. but I will admit again a part of that is me just being really tired and gun-shy about how our long-term contracts have panned out.

 

[King85Kong]

hm. this is the way Im thinking about it. (and I fully admit being a bit cranky).

If the CDN Dollar/Salary cap wasn't so in flux - i would totally say for sure go ahead and give a JVR contract, because you buy UFA years (which is an asset) so if it doesn't work out, you could potentially flip him due to the fact you have potential wrapped up neatly.

Why i'm now gunshy (and this could have been mostly because of Carlyle etc), Jake has looked like a hot mess. and that isn't fair on Naz. However. it is something to think about

but i am all about fair choices. Subban bet on himself, and played very well. I think knowing that the president, the player of player development etc is very high on him, that could bode very well in his favour. and justify the contract. and if say DeBoer (or D. Hunter) is hired (both high on him too). well it just makes it all work out nicely, right?

I just personally think - either one can work.
you can give Nazzy a 2 year bridge (again) OR you buy up some ufa years. i guess for me, I don't see why we'd need to pay 5 years when we don't have to. but I will admit again a part of that is me just being really tired and gun-shy about how our long-term contracts have panned out.

Gardiner has looked much better since the Carlyle departure. But I understand your concern. Just that Kadri has shown his skill and his numbers will go up next year with increased responsibilities resulting in a higher price tag. Montreal missed out in not giving Subban a JVR deal when they had the chance and are now going to be paying a much higher salary. Those savings could have been used to upgrade other areas. Kadri is worth it, escpicially when players like Lupul and Bozak are likely to be coming off the books, with Santo and Franson already gone.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Gardiner has looked much better since the Carlyle departure. But I understand your concern. Just that Kadri has shown his skill and his numbers will go up next year with increased responsibilities resulting in a higher price tag. Montreal missed out in not giving Subban a JVR deal when they had the chance and are now going to be paying a much higher salary. Those savings could have been used to upgrade other areas. Kadri is worth it, escpicially when players like Lupul and Bozak are likely to be coming off the books, with Santo and Franson already gone.

that's true too.
i guess we'll see. i wouldn't be angry with either decision. i suppose is all i'm saying because i can see both sides of the spectrum here.

i do think Naz's contract won't be negotiated until after some people are gone.

 

[dimi78]

i can't, to be truthfully honest with you. (because i never knew "bridge contract" was a thing until Subban if we're honest) i just said. give them years.

I don't know if I would want to give Nazem 5 years. not this next contract anyway. but that's me. and if that were the case like trade vs. 5 years and hope for the best, then if it were me, i'd really be thinking about it.

Daisy you have to understand to factor in comparables & inflation not to mention retaining a trade asset when talking contracts not just Kadri but Bernier as well. In the trade thread you referenced that you wouldn't give any more than the league 10% raise.

You seem like a down to earth person so let me explain something to you both Kadri & Bernier have arbitration rights. You low ball them both if they have an agent with the players best interest in mind they will take the Leafs to arbitration and when you factor the above both have a strong case to winning the case which in fact not only gives the player the salary they want but a 1 year term with UFA status coming there way early. I get that people are emotional right now and think everything this team has is crap and not worth it but that's when you make mistakes when your emotional.

Take a look around the league what 50 point center's get? You may think 4million on a 5 years is too much but even that is low on market value today. 2nd line and 2nd pair players is a 5+5 year club today. To get Kadri signed to a contract less than that it should have happen the first go around instead of the "bridge". Every time a team go's bridge the term contract will only go up the next go around which is why I personally don't like them at all.

Bridge contracts IMO is something to be honest only benefits contending teams that are tight with the cap, going for it and need to find some bargain of a type to keep the teams depth intact. RFA status on young guys is what allows contending teams to "Bridge" knowing full well that the next go around trades will need to be made either in someone else or this player you've "Bridged".

When your a team in transition my money is to pay on potential rather than pay for UFA's. There's never bargains in UFA's status. The best bet for fair and good long term deals is to skip the "Bridge" and negotiate a fair termed contract. One that is more incline toward where a player is currently at that allows you maintain as a trade asset if things don't go as plan Team wise. After all we are dealing with human beings so there's always the possibility of things not working out but still it's smarter money to pay for potential rather than chase UFA IMO.

In case you haven't noticed UFA status both in re-signing are own or chasing others mainly others is where just about all the mistakes both Burke and Nonis have made. They refuse to commit to the younger guys to put more on there plate and that keeps costing them. Just keep that in mind

 

[Vexed]

Daisy you have to understand to factor in comparables & inflation not to mention retaining a trade asset when talking contracts not just Kadri but Bernier as well. In the trade thread you referenced that you wouldn't give any more than the league 10% raise.

You seem like a down to earth person so let me explain something to you both Kadri & Bernier have arbitration rights. You low ball them both if they have an agent with the players best interest in mind they will take the Leafs to arbitration and when you factor the above both have a strong case to winning the case which in fact not only gives the player the salary they want but a 1 year term with UFA status coming there way early. I get that people are emotional right now and think everything this team has is crap and not worth it but that's when you make mistakes when your emotional.

Take a look around the league what 50 point center's get? You may think 4million on a 5 years is too much but even that is low on market value today. 2nd line and 2nd pair players is a 5+5 year club today. To get Kadri signed to a contract less than that it should have happen the first go around instead of the "bridge". Every time a team go's bridge the term contract will only go up the next go around which is why I personally don't like them at all.

Bridge contracts IMO is something to be honest only benefits contending teams that are tight with the cap, going for it and need to find some bargain of a type to keep the teams depth intact. RFA status on young guys is what allows contending teams to "Bridge" knowing full well that the next go around trades will need to be made either in someone else or this player you've "Bridged".

When your a team in transition my money is to pay on potential rather than pay for UFA's. There's never bargains in UFA's status. The best bet for fair and good long term deals is to skip the "Bridge" and negotiate a fair termed contract. One that is more incline toward where a player is currently at that allows you maintain as a trade asset if things don't go as plan Team wise. After all we are dealing with human beings so there's always the possibility of things not working out but still it's smarter money to pay for potential rather than chase UFA IMO.

In case you haven't noticed UFA status both in re-signing are own or chasing others mainly others is where just about all the mistakes both Burke and Nonis have made. They refuse to commit to the younger guys to put more on there plate and that keeps costing them. Just keep that in mind

This is an excellent post and although I think a bridge can serve a purpose in keeping a young player at their hungriest for longer or to help mitigate when a kid is asking for a ransom for his potential, I largely agree with your overall assessment.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Daisy you have to understand to factor in comparables & inflation not to mention retaining a trade asset when talking contracts not just Kadri but Bernier as well. In the trade thread you referenced that you wouldn't give any more than the league 10% raise.

You seem like a down to earth person so let me explain something to you both Kadri & Bernier have arbitration rights. You low ball them both if they have an agent with the players best interest in mind they will take the Leafs to arbitration and when you factor the above both have a strong case to winning the case which in fact not only gives the player the salary they want but a 1 year term with UFA status coming there way early. I get that people are emotional right now and think everything this team has is crap and not worth it but that's when you make mistakes when your emotional.

Take a look around the league what 50 point center's get? You may think 4million on a 5 years is too much but even that is low on market value today. 2nd line and 2nd pair players is a 5+5 year club today. To get Kadri signed to a contract less than that it should have happen the first go around instead of the "bridge". Every time a team go's bridge the term contract will only go up the next go around which is why I personally don't like them at all.

Bridge contracts IMO is something to be honest only benefits contending teams that are tight with the cap, going for it and need to find some bargain of a type to keep the teams depth intact. RFA status on young guys is what allows contending teams to "Bridge" knowing full well that the next go around trades will need to be made either in someone else or this player you've "Bridged".

When your a team in transition my money is to pay on potential rather than pay for UFA's. There's never bargains in UFA's status. The best bet for fair and good long term deals is to skip the "Bridge" and negotiate a fair termed contract. One that is more incline toward where a player is currently at that allows you maintain as a trade asset if things don't go as plan Team wise. After all we are dealing with human beings so there's always the possibility of things not working out but still it's smarter money to pay for potential rather than chase UFA IMO.

In case you haven't noticed UFA status both in re-signing are own or chasing others mainly others is where just about all the mistakes both Burke and Nonis have made. They refuse to commit to the younger guys to put more on there plate and that keeps costing them. Just keep that in mind

hey thanks dimi.
that actually makes... a lot of sense. I never thought about it like that before (and I appreciate that you really broke it down in a really nice way, so i could actually see everything).

like i admitted, i am emotional hehe. but i am really trying hard to see both sides of the situation. so i guess it could potentially behoove the team to sign up Bernier + Naz up for about 4-5 years, but only if they aren't stupid (ie: no no moves/trades crap like that).

i saw vexxed while i'm replying to you and he's of the same mind - if the 2nd contract is a "bridge" (keep them hungry) i don't mind then if the third contract is eating up ufa years (i think the JVR contract was actually a combination of both bridge/ufa years, at a very, very reasonable rate. I'm going to be curious if we're going to see more contracts like those - 5-6 years at lower/market value).



i don't know if you saw my other response to King85kong, but i do think going by comments by most of management they do like where he's trending. i don't think though his contract (nor Bernier's) get assessed until they figure out what's happening with Bozak, Lupul and other big contracts they need to turf.

but again thanks for that breakdown in a very easy going manner.

 

[Super Mega]

This is an excellent post and although I think a bridge can serve a purpose in keeping a young player at their hungriest for longer or to help mitigate when a kid is asking for a ransom for his potential, I largely agree with your overall assessment.

its used often for this arguably more so than the prior

you want to bridge Kadri if you can because if he becomes that 1C (I love the kid but dont think he will) you just pay him and leafs have their 1C.

With hindsight it was wrong to bridge Subban but the Canadians had a certain amount of uncertainty at the time and needed too. The contract signed I think was over-payment but its not all directly the result of the bridge and they have a 1/2D for the next while (not a bad problem imo).

 

[A1LeafNation]

..so looks like Kadri put Wheeler on the shelf.

 

[Menzinger]

In theory I don't have anything against signing him to a bridge deal (though, I'd obviously would prefer a JVR type deal).

He can go to arbitration, and will likely be awarded a decent chunk of change (likely close to 4-4.5). Which then begs the question - would it not be worth it then to try to eat up some of his UFA years for around that price (or a little more).

The Habs did pay for it dearly with Subban.

 

[Community]

It's probably been posted in here, but looking at NHL.com and their new stats, we've only had one player that's played more than 10 games and has a positive SAT (Corsi or very similar to Corsi). He's also 24th in the league in SAT REL (Corsi relative to team, so shot attempts when he's on compared to when he's not). None other than Nasty Nazem... He's been great this year and I would love to lock him up long-term.

Edit: He's actually higher than that because the SAT values for Buffalo are wrong.. It doesn't have a single player on Buffalo with a negative SAT REL when it should...

 

[Tak7]

In theory I don't have anything against signing him to a bridge deal (though, I'd obviously would prefer a JVR type deal).

He can go to arbitration, and will likely be awarded a decent chunk of change (likely close to 4-4.5). Which then begs the question - would it not be worth it then to try to eat up some of his UFA years for around that price (or a little more).

The Habs did pay for it dearly with Subban.

The Leafs get cleaned out if they take Kadri to arbitration - those hearings are often very stat & role heavy, both of which lean very heavily in Nazzy's favor. Let's not forget that when this team was playing really well 10-1-1, Kadri was 1st line center.

These things matter during arb hearings

 

[Gallagbi]

Are you up taking the challenge of counting the giveaways/takeaways for tonight's game and comparing the results? Maybe you'll start seeing what I'm talking about.

We're talking about a great possession player as evidenced by his "advanced" stats, right?

We were talking about him "bringing it", which I link to effort and playing with an edge.

As for tonight, I'll be lucky if I catch a period but I'm aware Kadri can overhandle pucks.

I don't think I've mentioned possession in this thread.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

Most of the people harping on Kadri have a hard on for Bozo the clown. Its best to put them on the list.

Facts they don't seem to get.

Kadri is ranked 31st overall among forwards who have played around 2000 mins or more since 2012-2013
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...rds&minutes=2000&disp=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Yet Kadri keeps getting called out

Still going with that huh?

It's all in the sample size, my friend.

I can easily change the sample to the last 2 years and instantly Kadri drops way down the list (lands right next to useless Darren Helm!) and magically, Bozak is rated higher.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/ratings.php?db=201315&sit=5v5&type=individual&teamid=0&pos=forwards&minutes=1000&disp
=1&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Same players, right? I guess we can make stats say pretty much whatever we'd like them too, eh?

Which should carry more weight? What a player did 3 or 4 years ago, but hasn't come close to replicating since.... or what they have done in the most recent 2 seasons?

 

[thewave]

..so looks like Kadri put Wheeler on the shelf.

Good he had it coming after trying to take off his head using the boards as the guillotine.

That was a hockey play that everyone in the league will look at and say, you know what... He had it coming after that. Much respect to Kadri league wide, guys will think twice about trying to mess wit Kadri.