Kadri Discussion Thread (Mod Warning Post #576)

[Gary Nylund]

Why said anything about NHL leaders. I'm talking eye test on a game by game basis, not most inconsistently gathered official statistic around the league.

1st
GvA #1 @ 18:59
TkA #1 @ 15:00
TkA #2 @ 14:30

etc.

I'm not the one building his case on flawed statistics that look slightly less flawed after some adjustment.

So we should ignore statistics, and rely on your eye-test. Do you any credentials to back up this suggestion or are you a random internet poster blowing smoke?

 

[TMLegend]

So we should ignore statistics, and rely on your eye-test. Do you any credentials to back up this suggestion or are you a random internet poster blowing smoke?

You mean those same statistics that claimed Jake Gardiner was a more effective defensemen than Drew Doughty?

 

[Gary Nylund]

You mean those same statistics that claimed Jake Gardiner was a more effective defensemen than Drew Doughty?

You were the one who brought up turnover numbers as if they were relevant to this discussion.

 

[burpsalot]

My pick for best forward on the leafs this year is Winnik. He's probably been the most consistent as well. Teams have been showing interest in him since 20 games into the season.

The above statement is based on no facts, stats or data & I don't care who has how many points compared to him, it's based on my opinion.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Why said anything about NHL leaders. I'm talking eye test on a game by game basis, not most inconsistently gathered official statistic around the league.

1st
GvA #1 @ 18:59
TkA #1 @ 15:00
TkA #2 @ 14:30

etc.

I'm not the one building his case on flawed statistics that look slightly less flawed after some adjustment.

First of all, the reason why giveaways is pretty much a universally disregarded stat is that it's based on a drawback of a positive. To explain it concisely, puck possession is good. To achieve it, you need players who are able to transport the puck and make plays that opens space. When you do this, you are more liable to get giveaways in the long run. That's why you see the leaderboards full of players that spend a lot of time with the puck on their stick.

You then move on to disregarding the NHL-tracked stats due to their fallacy, which is a lot about the unreliable nature of individual people using eye test to track non-precise events, so that we can do it ourselves, as if our eye tests would somehow be more reliable.

 

[Snow Dog]

First of all, the reason why giveaways is pretty much a universally disregarded stat is that it's based on a drawback of a positive. To explain it concisely, puck possession is good. To achieve it, you need players who are able to transport the puck and make plays that opens space. When you do this, you are more liable to get giveaways in the long run. That's why you see the leaderboards full of players that spend a lot of time with the puck on their stick.

You then move on to disregarding the NHL-tracked stats due to their fallacy, which is a lot about the unreliable nature of individual people using eye test to track non-precise events, so that we can do it ourselves, as if our eye tests would somehow be more reliable.

If these NHL tracked stats are the best way to judge a player why do teams go the the great expense of a scouting staff?the eye test is THE test.After the stats are considered, watching a player play is how he is judged,not by what is on the computer.

 

[King85Kong]

I counter you are ignoring facts that clealy show Kadri is nowhere near a number #1C. Sorry to spoil your delusional notion that he is a first line C, but the only so called "fact" supporters have provided for Kadri being a #1C is an adjusted statistic that is based off assumptions and ignores a multitude of other factors that determine Kadri's potential as a top line player. Since you refuse to acknowledge several "facts" that suggest Kadri is not even an elite #2 I will list them for you.

FACT - Kadri is ranked #130 in scoring.
FACT - Kadri is #56 among C's in scoring
FACT - Kadri is poor at faceoffs, somewhere around 45%
FACT - Kadri is NOT a good defefender - at best he is average
FACT - Kadri has inconsistency issues, takes games off and floats
FACT - Kadri is easily knocked off the puck and does not have the size and strength to compete against elite #1 C's

So Kadri has a solid game, putting up points and showing some grit. Yet the entire season as a whole is ignored and now Kadri has the drive of Dougie and is outproducing Datsyuk 5x5 while ignoring the fact he is a Selke candidate year after year.

Kadri will never be a number 1C, we should consider ourselves lucky if he can become an upper tier number 2C.

How can anyone take YOU seriously when you claim Kadri is a number 1C based on an adjusted statistic where elite #1 C's like Datayuk and Zetterberg are ranked in the 60's and 90's?

Again, lots of opinions with very little supporting evidence. Plus very misleading when you fail to factor in such simple things as minutes played, QOT, QOC, and PP time.
Where is the supporting evidence?

 

[Nithoniniel]

If these NHL tracked stats are the best way to judge a player why do teams go the the great expense of a scouting staff?the eye test is THE test.After the stats are considered, watching a player play is how he is judged,not by what is on the computer.

Did you read what I said? I said those stats are bad, not "the best way to judge a player". Sometimes I feel like people read posts aiming to misunderstand them.

 

[Snow Dog]

Did you read what I said? I said those stats are bad, not "the best way to judge a player". Sometimes I feel like people read posts aiming to misunderstand them.



Missed that one. Regardless of what you think, gotta love someone who writes about FACTS, only to follow up with a list of opinions.

So you were saying the NHL stats are wrong?

 

[King85Kong]

Did you read what I said? I said those stats are bad, not "the best way to judge a player". Sometimes I feel like people read posts aiming to misunderstand them.

On HFBoards, never

 

[Nithoniniel]

So you were saying the NHL stats are wrong?

I'll try to make it simpler. The stats themselves are dubious, just like any stats collected that way, but what makes them bad is that they are counting a small bad thing, a turnover, that comes mainly as a result of something good, carrying the puck.

 

[Snow Dog]

I'll try to make it simpler. The stats themselves are dubious, just like any stats collected that way, but what makes them bad is that they are counting a small bad thing, a turnover, that comes mainly as a result of something good, carrying the puck.

Thank you brilliant one I don't understand things some times.A bad pass counts as a turnover.And carrying the puck is only good if you do something with it.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

First of all, the reason why giveaways is pretty much a universally disregarded stat is that it's based on a drawback of a positive. To explain it concisely, puck possession is good. To achieve it, you need players who are able to transport the puck and make plays that opens space. When you do this, you are more liable to get giveaways in the long run. That's why you see the leaderboards full of players that spend a lot of time with the puck on their stick.

You then move on to disregarding the NHL-tracked stats due to their fallacy, which is a lot about the unreliable nature of individual people using eye test to track non-precise events, so that we can do it ourselves, as if our eye tests would somehow be more reliable.

You are a reasonable poster Nithoniniel. You do not need to read giveaways stats to know this is part of Kadri's game. There was a recent game he blatantly coughed up the puck twice in the first period that Ray Ferraro commented on, but it was not listed in the boxscore. So while we all want to focus on the stats and them being infallible, this works both ways. We all know from watching games, Kadri is not the most safe player handling the puck. Now I will buy into the it is because he wants to make plays, and players who want to make plays often make high risk plays. But given his modest production, I would say it is a part of his game he needs to be better at. We all know this whether one is in the pro Kadri, the con Kadri camp, or even the right down the middle Kadri camp.

 

[Deez Nuts]

Again, lots of opinions with very little supporting evidence. Plus very misleading when you fail to factor in such simple things as minutes played, QOT, QOC, and PP time.
Where is the supporting evidence?

What supporting evidence do you need?
Kadri ranks somewhere around #130 in scoring? This FACT needs supporting evidence?
Kadri FO% hovers around 45% but this FACT is also manufactured amd needs supporting evidence?
I stand corrected - Kadri is #50 in C scoring which puts him in the lower tier #2 C's.
After Saturday's game Hunter himself said Kadri needs to play like that on a regular basis. What more evidence do you need to show Kadri is inconsistent. I bet Hunter knows Kadri better than any of us.

Considering you claim he ranks right up there with the top C's in the league and is a top line player I ask what evidenve is there that supports this notion other than an adjusted stat with questionable credibility?

I have asked multiple posters what facets of the game Kadri is good at or at least above average, yet not a single person has even attempted to answer the question. All I get is nonsense like he produces better than Datsyuk 5x5 which has been proven to be 100% false over the last two years.

So again, set aside this adjusted stat and tell me what makes Kadri a #1 guy?

 

[Snow Dog]

What supporting evidence do you need?
Kadri ranks somewhere around #130 in scoring? This FACT needs supporting evidence?
Kadri FO% hovers around 45% but this FACT is also manufactured amd needs supporting evidence?
I stand corrected - Kadri is #50 in C scoring which puts him in the lower tier #2 C's.
After Saturday's game Hunter himself said Kadri needs to play like that on a regular basis. What more evidence do you need to show Kadri is inconsistent. I bet Hunter knows Kadri better than any of us.

Considering you claim he ranks right up there with the top C's in the league and is a top line player I ask what evidenve is there that supports this notion other than an adjusted stat with questionable credibility?

I have asked multiple posters what facets of the game Kadri is good at or at least above average, yet not a single person has even attempted to answer the question. All I get is nonsense like he produces better than Datsyuk 5x5 which has been proven to be 100% false over the last two years.

So again, set aside this adjusted stat and tell me what makes Kadri a #1 guy?

His ego.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Thank you brilliant one I don't understand things some times.A bad pass counts as a turnover.And carrying the puck is only good if you do something with it.

Didn't mean to come off that way, just cranky this evening.

Do something with it can mean so much positive things though. If you carry it out of the zone, you do something with it. If you push it up the ice you do something with it. Get it into the opposing zone is doing something with it. All things that normally doesn't give you much cred, but in the long run is helpful.

You are a reasonable poster Nithoniniel. You do not need to read giveaways stats to know this is part of Kadri's game. There was a recent game he blatantly coughed up the puck twice in the first period that Ray Ferraro commented on, but it was not listed in the boxscore. So while we all want to focus on the stats and them being infallible, this works both ways. We all know from watching games, Kadri is not the most safe player handling the puck. Now I will buy into the it is because he wants to make plays, and players who want to make plays often make high risk plays. But given his modest production, I would say it is a part of his game he needs to be better at. We all know this whether one is in the pro Kadri, the con Kadri camp, or even the right down the middle Kadri camp.

He could be better at this, sure. And it's a part of his game that has generally been a bit off the last few weeks, probably due to frustration over the situation.

I'm glad you think I'm reasonable though. I must be doing something right

 

[mikebel111*]

Again, lots of opinions with very little supporting evidence. Plus very misleading when you fail to factor in such simple things as minutes played, QOT, QOC, and PP time.
Where is the supporting evidence?

Thank you very much! I responded with facts but he ignores them (is my post invisible?) Than says to respond to his claims even though he has no evidence on his. Than him defending his name calling was really funny
Sorry but name calling doesnt help anyone's position even if they do sound smart at times
Something tells me NS Leaf left his leaf back home

 

[mikebel111*]

His ego.

His confidence. Learn the difference

 

[Snow Dog]

Thank you very much! I responded with facts but he ignores them (is my post invisible?) Than says to respond to his claims even though he has no evidence on his. Than him defending his name calling was really funny
Sorry but name calling doesnt help anyone's position even if they do sound smart at times
Something tells me NS Leaf left his leaf back home

You still haven't answered the question that the guy asked.When watching games this season what does Kadri do on the ice that makes him comparable to the top C's in the league?

 

[Snow Dog]

His confidence. Learn the difference

Hey,I had to throw that in with the opportunity i was given.

 

[mikebel111*]

What supporting evidence do you need?
Kadri ranks somewhere around #130 in scoring? This FACT needs supporting evidence?
Kadri FO% hovers around 45% but this FACT is also manufactured amd needs supporting evidence?
I stand corrected - Kadri is #50 in C scoring which puts him in the lower tier #2 C's.
After Saturday's game Hunter himself said Kadri needs to play like that on a regular basis. What more evidence do you need to show Kadri is inconsistent. I bet Hunter knows Kadri better than any of us.

Considering you claim he ranks right up there with the top C's in the league and is a top line player I ask what evidenve is there that supports this notion other than an adjusted stat with questionable credibility?

I have asked multiple posters what facets of the game Kadri is good at or at least above average, yet not a single person has even attempted to answer the question. All I get is nonsense like he produces better than Datsyuk 5x5 which has been proven to be 100% false over the last two years.

So again, set aside this adjusted stat and tell me what makes Kadri a #1 guy?

If you wont, than why should we? Oh yeah the Kadri fans are the terrible ones for sure.
Guess what, since you cant understand stats, than dont post any just to make a point even if it does fit a narrative(we all know what it is, remember that Rielly is 2nd pairing d at best comment) #endofcredibility
Kadri is improving on all fronts and stats prove that which have been posted all over this thread but you can ignore those as well if you want
We know he is a good player that is a improving
#fact

 

[King85Kong]

What supporting evidence do you need?
Kadri ranks somewhere around #130 in scoring? This FACT needs supporting evidence?
Kadri FO% hovers around 45% but this FACT is also manufactured amd needs supporting evidence?
I stand corrected - Kadri is #50 in C scoring which puts him in the lower tier #2 C's.
After Saturday's game Hunter himself said Kadri needs to play like that on a regular basis. What more evidence do you need to show Kadri is inconsistent. I bet Hunter knows Kadri better than any of us.

Considering you claim he ranks right up there with the top C's in the league and is a top line player I ask what evidenve is there that supports this notion other than an adjusted stat with questionable credibility?

I have asked multiple posters what facets of the game Kadri is good at or at least above average, yet not a single person has even attempted to answer the question. All I get is nonsense like he produces better than Datsyuk 5x5 which has been proven to be 100% false over the last two years.

So again, set aside this adjusted stat and tell me what makes Kadri a #1 guy?

Again you conventatly leave out the points per 60, QOT, QOC, PP time, among many other factors. Plus faceoffs while a plus are way over rated, and have been shown to be.

Here I will help you out again

Nazem Kadri’s Usage Adjusted Corsi% of 54.2% currently ranks better than 8 of the NHL’s 30 top line centers

The misleading stats and unsupported claims are cute though

 

[mikebel111*]

First of all, no one said Kadri is comparible to the elite C's in the league. Ton of work ahead to reach that. Just one aspect is comparible THIS SEASON NOT ENTIRE CAREER SO STOP WITH THE STATS OF DATSYUK.
What we know, he is a player with a good d game(i just upset a few by saying that), terrific hands, can stick up for himself. Improving slightly every year on draws, penalty drawing machine with his false diving. Heart as well
#beauty

 

[Snow Dog]

If you wont, than why should we? Oh yeah the Kadri fans are the terrible ones for sure.
Guess what, since you cant understand stats, than dont post any just to make a point even if it does fit a narrative(we all know what it is, remember that Rielly is 2nd pairing d at best comment) #endofcredibility
Kadri is improving on all fronts and stats prove that which have been posted all over this thread but you can ignore those as well if you want
We know he is a good player that is a improving
#fact

I think you are looking for something that is not there.
No one here is saying Kadri is a bad player.They are saying that there are still areas of his game that need improvement.And until he gets his flaws fixed he can't be considered a top player in the league.

 

[Snow Dog]

First of all, no one said Kadri is comparible to the elite C's in the league. Ton of work ahead to reach that. Just one aspect is comparible THIS SEASON NOT ENTIRE CAREER SO STOP WITH THE STATS OF DATSYUK.
What we know, he is a player with a good d game(i just upset a few by saying that), terrific hands, can stick up for himself. Improving slightly every year on draws, penalty drawing machine with his false diving. Heart as well
#beauty

See the previous post.