JVR - Yes or No
- Thread starter Clark4Ever
- Start date
wait we can get on a 3 year deal? well I might change my vote. In the real world Marleau and JVR contracts have nothing to do with each other, Marleau's deal is up the 2nd year of Matthews deal and appears to be designed to make it very tradeable.
I remember when everyone said "just trade Marleau's cap hit in that last year to Vegas because they'll have to meet the cap floor".... completely disregarding the fact that Marleau has a NMC,, and not accounting for any sort of unpredictability.... like who could have predicted that Vegas would be competitive and not some dumping ground for our cap problems? Or who could have predicted that we might now really would like to keep JVR when maybe a year ago he was considered a secondary/tertiary piece? Or who could have predicted that Eichel would sign for 10, and AM34 might warrant closer to 12? Might have been nice to keep some of our powder dry, eh? The 4th, 5th, 6th, years of JVR's deal are less of a problem cap-wise, the real pinch is in these next 2 years, the years that we gave to Marleau. It was a gratuitous and short-sighted move by Babcock et. al. Nevertheless, even if we had not signed father-figure Patty, I was already prepared that we would not be able to keep JVR due to money/cap-management focused on our younger group. At this stage, I'll be amazed if we don't need to trade Morgan Reilly, dump Gardiner for nothing, or need to somehow somewher find a taker for Zaitzev's contract. No problem though, I'm sure Vegas will take him! LOL
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Havoc
Registered User
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Leafs are dead last in power play opportunities this season. Factor that in when you guys make your fantasy predictions of whose replacing his goals. He'd be at 40 already with more power play time.
JVR is a weapon not many teams have. Go to tsn's NHL section, sort the statistics by goals. JVR is 11th on page 2. Now scroll horizontally to ATOI. Look at JVR's then flip the pages and look at everyone else while it's still sorted by goals. Keep flipping and flipping the page number. You won't find anything lower until about page 8. Travis Konecny with 22 goals in 14:45.
We lose a whole facet when losing JVR . A player you can stick on the third line but know that when the returns are summed at the end of the season you're getting top six goals. That DOES show up in the win column. Last I checked the team that scores the most goals win regardless of how good your selke performance is.
If you think Marleau is putting up 30 goals, recall this guy had back to back 20+ power play points recently and still couldn't reach 30 goals playing in San Jose's top six. Now he's 3-4 years older than that.
Nylander won't reach 20 goals this season but people think kapanen and johansson are gonna storm in here and put up 15-20 each. Hyman has better odds at putting up 15 goals in the NHL next season than they do. We don't have setup men for them after the first two lines and they won't do what JVR does for the first power play unit so how exactly can these guys make up for losing JVR?
If JVR isn't being re-signed then there must be a plan in place. I don't see them taking the addition through subtraction route because that doesn't apply in this case like people are trying to make it seem. They either have their eyes on someone else (like Tavares) or have plans in place to get a D-man in which they need JVR's cap room to make it happen.
Otherwise you sort of have to sign JVR for 5.5-6 while we are in this window to win on some ELC years still. Marleau is gone in two years freeing up 6.25. Even if we win the cup this season you bring back JVR for the encore performance.
Cap is going up and they dish out millions of dollars to professionals with MBA's to figure this stuff out. It will be fine.
JVR is a weapon not many teams have. Go to tsn's NHL section, sort the statistics by goals. JVR is 11th on page 2. Now scroll horizontally to ATOI. Look at JVR's then flip the pages and look at everyone else while it's still sorted by goals. Keep flipping and flipping the page number. You won't find anything lower until about page 8. Travis Konecny with 22 goals in 14:45.
We lose a whole facet when losing JVR . A player you can stick on the third line but know that when the returns are summed at the end of the season you're getting top six goals. That DOES show up in the win column. Last I checked the team that scores the most goals win regardless of how good your selke performance is.
If you think Marleau is putting up 30 goals, recall this guy had back to back 20+ power play points recently and still couldn't reach 30 goals playing in San Jose's top six. Now he's 3-4 years older than that.
Nylander won't reach 20 goals this season but people think kapanen and johansson are gonna storm in here and put up 15-20 each. Hyman has better odds at putting up 15 goals in the NHL next season than they do. We don't have setup men for them after the first two lines and they won't do what JVR does for the first power play unit so how exactly can these guys make up for losing JVR?
If JVR isn't being re-signed then there must be a plan in place. I don't see them taking the addition through subtraction route because that doesn't apply in this case like people are trying to make it seem. They either have their eyes on someone else (like Tavares) or have plans in place to get a D-man in which they need JVR's cap room to make it happen.
Otherwise you sort of have to sign JVR for 5.5-6 while we are in this window to win on some ELC years still. Marleau is gone in two years freeing up 6.25. Even if we win the cup this season you bring back JVR for the encore performance.
Cap is going up and they dish out millions of dollars to professionals with MBA's to figure this stuff out. It will be fine.
Boutette
Been there done that
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People like this forget that JvR's power play unit gets the lionsshare of PP time on the team. They also forget that his late boost has coincidentally occurred at the same time as Mitch Marner's when it comes to the PP as well as Matthews time on the DL (with Mitch as QB). They also forget that the JvR/Bozak/** line has been gifted with a ridiculous percentage of offensive zone starts and extremely sheltered matchups where they do their most scoring against 3rd and 4th lines on opposing teams. What do you think happens when other players, such as Marleau, Johnsson, Nylander etc, get the chance of 80% offensive starts and Marner as their PP playmaker next year? That they will somehow accomplish the same as they have or *worse* with, by comparison their mostly defensive zone starts and a lesser star quarterbacking the powerplay they've had this year? Does that make any sense at all? Does anyone think that Marleau, who on the Kadri line, faces significantly stiffer competition wouldn't be producing far better numbers *if* he was facing the 3rd and 4th liners that JvR does? All things being equal, JvR's scoring would be pretty impressive compared to what other Leafs are accomplishing *if* they faced the same competition and had the same kind of zone starts. But all things are not equal, and pretending they are when they aren't turns such an argument into denial driven drivel.
As it is Marleau's contract has *absolutely nothing to do* with managing JvR's coming $7 million a year contract and its affordability in the face of the Cap, since Marleau will almost certainly be gone when the crunch comed (Matthews and Marner and Gardiner or an actual top line defender and depth center needing to be signed to maintain team strength and address deficiencies for the long haul). Its those are the obstacle to JvR being a latter day Muskoka 5 member, despite people pretending that the problem lies elsewhere.
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I might offer $9mil on a 1 year contract. Then next year, his money goes to Matthews.
Can't really sign him for anything longer than a 1 year contract so I doubt this works.
Not sure if this would be allowed... but we could make a handshake agreement to sign him for a 1 year contract at $12 million... then the year after, sign him for 3 years at $4 million. That averages out to $6 million per year for 4 years... but allows us to front load the contract so we can afford Matthews and Marner the next year. I assume there is a rule about cap circumvention that prevents this... but you never know. Sometimes it's not a rule until someone does it the first time.
Can't really sign him for anything longer than a 1 year contract so I doubt this works.
Not sure if this would be allowed... but we could make a handshake agreement to sign him for a 1 year contract at $12 million... then the year after, sign him for 3 years at $4 million. That averages out to $6 million per year for 4 years... but allows us to front load the contract so we can afford Matthews and Marner the next year. I assume there is a rule about cap circumvention that prevents this... but you never know. Sometimes it's not a rule until someone does it the first time.
Boutette
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Except all that does is maintain the status quo at best. Cap still has to be spent to replace or resign Bozak, Komarov, Moore, Carrick and Johnsson as well as pay for the $5 million in bonuses that will be taken out of the cap next year because we dipped into our LTIR this year (paying JvR $9 mill would give us maybe $8 million to accomplish that). And allows the team to do *nothing* to address our current deficiencies, and could push the team into again pushing bonuses onto 2019 when we have to upsign a pair of potentially PPG players (Marner & Matthews) as well as potentially breakout players like Kapanen and Borgman by then. By signing the goldplated contract that JvR will be expecting the best Toronto does is maintain what it has, and that means hoping everyone else ahead of us falls back because we have ensured overall team talent is now beholden to one player's retirement contract. Or we have to bend over backwards to get rid of it. Choose your poison.
nuck
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In spite of a recent hot streak, he hasn't historically produced goals per 60 like this. You have to consider his entire body of work along with the realistic chance that he will be productive the last half of his next deal. Scoring goals isn't this clubs weakness, its stopping them, and he doesn't help with that. He has great hands but he is the teams 5th most valuable forward and doesn't have a physical or defensive game that sets him apart from what they have. They can probably spend the same dollars on a UFA in the next three years that addresses an actual weakness. People say "how will you replace those goals", as though there is nobody else to take his pp minutes or that he isn't easily replaceable as an even strength contributor. Scoring wingers are the most common UFA on the market almost every year, he isn't unique. I don't dislike the guy at all but locking him up long term is a luxury and a risk. The cap only allows for a limited number of long term deals, and power play specialists aren't a smart way to use them.
LeafsNation75
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HamiltonNHL
Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
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HamiltonNHL
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No way he takes that.
His agent won’t let him.
One injury and he left 30+ million on the table.
HamiltonNHL
Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
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The same people that want to keep JVR probably know Tavares is coming too.
We can’t afford JVR.
His age is too old for our core.
And he’s risky. Sure he’s hot now but ... he’ll be too costly for the 6 year deal he will get.
We can’t afford JVR.
His age is too old for our core.
And he’s risky. Sure he’s hot now but ... he’ll be too costly for the 6 year deal he will get.
Boutette
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True. If anyone is really going to be given the capspace people want devoted to JvR its going to be a defenceman, either via UFA signing, trade or by resigning Gardiner.
HamiltonNHL
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slozo
Registered User
What a ridiculous way to ask a question....everyone's answer should be "sure, we want to keep him". But obviously not at any price!
So there has to be a price/term point of letting the player go...to ask without that context is like a child asking dad when looking at a house they absolutely cannot afford, "do you want that house?"
Yeah, of course we want it! But it's too much, son...it it too damn much.
So there has to be a price/term point of letting the player go...to ask without that context is like a child asking dad when looking at a house they absolutely cannot afford, "do you want that house?"
Yeah, of course we want it! But it's too much, son...it it too damn much.
Correct. Most players that are about to hit UFA status always seem to kick it up a notch. In fact, I remember a certain franchise offering a certain player born in Toronto a huge contract for one 30 goal season. Now obviously JVR is not in that same boat. He is far above that guy that was signed when he became a UFA. But JVR is more of a 20/40 guy. If he hits 40 goals this season, and wants a long-term contract for a guy that scores 40 goals, forget it. I honestly think he'll want to stick with the team, but the offer might be too low. He could very well fetch around 6.5x7 during free agency this summer, and both the number and term are too rich for the organization's blood at this point. Over a 7 year term, he'd be worth about 5-5.25 IMO. I love the guy, I've got his jersey, but the cost is likely too high. Let's just see if the team can make a cup run, and see if he can go beast mode like he did in the series vs. Boston, as well as when he was in the playoffs when he was playing for Philly.
Ulysses31
Registered User
Yes, we won't replace his scoring and net presence for less than he'll cost.
What if we win the Cup this year, would you still let him walk? What if he scores the Cup winning goal? Sad if we let him go when he is still under 30.
What if we win the Cup this year, would you still let him walk? What if he scores the Cup winning goal? Sad if we let him go when he is still under 30.
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then we would definitely have to let him walk because he's gonna get paid big time if he scores the cup winning goal.
JVR has been a very very good Toronto Maple Leaf, I want to use this strong social media forum to wish him the best. He has been great for the blue and white, if we retain him, so much the better.
JVR, we appreciate you, you have elephant balls to stand where you stand. You don't fight, you don't crash the boards, but you position yourself in the hell of the NHL, and you don't get congratulated for it, so. Here is your congratulations.. Pucks in the face, cross checks in the back and neck, you risk it all.
Thanks for being a great Leaf.
Its been awesome to watch your body of work, for our team.
Expendable? yeah, as soon as you sign in Toronto, yer a bit screwed, that is why I want to see a great Leaf go somewhere, where you won't be under daily scrutiny, you deserve happiness James, go get it.
But first, lets get a Cup here, this spring.
JVR, we appreciate you, you have elephant balls to stand where you stand. You don't fight, you don't crash the boards, but you position yourself in the hell of the NHL, and you don't get congratulated for it, so. Here is your congratulations.. Pucks in the face, cross checks in the back and neck, you risk it all.
Thanks for being a great Leaf.
Its been awesome to watch your body of work, for our team.
Expendable? yeah, as soon as you sign in Toronto, yer a bit screwed, that is why I want to see a great Leaf go somewhere, where you won't be under daily scrutiny, you deserve happiness James, go get it.
But first, lets get a Cup here, this spring.
Clark4Ever
What we do in hockey echoes in eternity...
In the opening post, I indicated the terms for the sake of discussion based on fair market value - 6-6.5 million for 6-7 years, which is realistic.
Obviously, JVR's not going to take a haircut (no pun intended Lou) to stay in Toronto, no matter how much he loves it here.
