Blue Jays Discussion: June 2017 Edition

[Discoverer]

donaldson is the best jay ever.

If you put no stock in longevity and want to look entirely at peak, he's a pretty clear second to Roger Clemens.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

My top ten:

1. Doc Halladay
2. Stieb
3. Bautista
4. Alomar
5. Key
6. Delgado
7. Fernandez
8. Olerud
9. Encarnacion
10. McGriff

HM: Henke\Ward

The peak, no longevity list is 1. Clemons 2. Donaldson....Winfield, Molitor

 

[zeke]

best fwar seasons in jays history:

1.Clemens 1997: 10.7
2.Donaldson 2015: 8.7
3.Clemens 1998: 8.2
4.Bautista 2011: 8.1
5 Olerud 1993: 8.1
6.Donaldson 2016: 7.6
7.Barfield 1986: 7.5
8.Delgado 2000: 7.4
9.Barfield 1985: 7.0
10.Halladay 2009: 7.0
11.Halladay 2003: 7.0
12.Moseby 1984: 6.9
13.Halladay 2008: 6.8
14.Halladay 2002: 6.8
15.McGriff 1988: 6.6
16.Bautista 2010: 6.4
17.McGriff 1989: 6.4
18.White 1991: 6.4
19.Bautista 2014: 6 3
20.Alomar 1992: 6.1

 

[zeke]

If you put no stock in longevity and want to look entirely at peak, he's a pretty clear second to Roger Clemens.

eh, they're close, but donaldson did it on back to back playoff teams. and he's doing it again here in year 3.

 

[Kurtz]

#1 is Doc. On this, there can be no debate.

 

[Discoverer]

eh, they're close, but donaldson did it on back to back playoff teams. and he's doing it again here in year 3.

2.6 fWAR over a two year stretch is a fairly significant gap. Barfield, Delgado, and Halladay's best two-year peaks are all closer to Donaldson than Donaldson is to Clemens.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Smoak for president!

 

[Eyedea]

1. Roger Clemens
2. Ricky Henderson
3. Frank Thomas
4. Scott Rolen
5. Roy Halladay
6. Paul Molitor
7. Roberto Alomar
8. Dave Winfield
9. Phil Niekro
10. John Olerud
11. Fred McGriff
12. Jeff Kent
13. David Wells
14. David Cone
15. Jack Morris (how can you argue 21-6)

HM: Omar Vizquel, Vlad Guerrero, Johan Santana

 

[zeke]

Justin Smoak, All-Star.

 

[Woodman19]

Just Because this is fun to do with the benefit of hindsight.

I like Smoakie, glad he'll stick around IMO.

after a crap game we learn of a crap signing.

crap.

multi year extensions for replacement players. yay.

zeke is right. Not a fan of this signing. Average/replacement 1B are easy to find. Not sure why we're paying Smoak to be honest.

This is bad news. It essentially means he's stuck with us now.

Funny how people get mad at such a small Smoak deal when it's likely that Jose will decline to Smoaks production level in a couple years but at 6x the $ and double the term.

We found Edwin's replacement!

4M for a good 1B and people are mad?

Zeke, you know your stuff but come on, you can't seriously expect that Barney would be more valuable at 1B than Smoak is. Barney is having a career year offensively but is still a slightly below average hitter and has nearly no pop. Plus, lets not leave out the part where Barney has never played 1B at the major league level (and likely never did in the minors, either). At least with Smoak, you are getting a poor mans Adam Dunn with a better glove.

 

[Cor]

I knew he was good

<----------- Need another Bert post

 

[Eyedea]

It's not like Smoak is a very good defender either. The point is basically that it is pretty much impossible to accrue defensive value at first base unless you're other-worldly due to the positional adjustment. The best 1B defensively last year, Travis Shaw (5th best UZR at 1B this century), was ~1 win better than Smoak on defence. Maybe Lawrie can be the best defender ever and actually provide value without a good bat at first, but chances are that he'd just be another Smoak at first.

That risk is not worth dumping Smoak's guaranteed money and giving Lawrie a couple million to try and learn first base.

What risk? Are you afraid of dumping him and him being turned into a star elsewhere? Smoak is a bench player. Dime a dozen.

Sure he could be another Smoak but Lawrie has had much better career numbers than Smoak to suggest otherwise.

Sorry phillipmike, but you gotta admit that looking back at your choice of words right now is hilariously convenient.

 

[TF97]

Part of me wants to quote some of my posts where I was defending Smoak and arguing that he would become a solid everyday player who hits 30 HR, posts a solid OBP, and plays respectable defense (so essentially Adam Dunn with a glove), but then I fear some of my other posts such as the "tender JJ a qualifying offer" and "bring back Morrow" posts would be quoted, thus ruining all of my "street cred"

 

[zeke]

i hated the multi-year contract for a 30yr old with 3000pa of replacement production, no doubt. and i will feel the same about similar contracts in the future. would love to see a list of 30yr olds with 3000pa that break out like this.

but i love baseball precisely because of these kinds of unlikely performances. and love that he's doing it for us.

 

[phillipmike]

Sorry phillipmike, but you gotta admit that looking back at your choice of words right now is hilariously convenient.

Me and probably 99% of the other posters. Though i already admitted this:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=132735965&postcount=456

Plus that comment i made more reflected the market where you could get better players at the time for less than 4M. If the market didn't crater which left many players on the market i probably dont make those comments. I also had similar opinions on Zeke when there were other LF options were available on the market too.

Count me in as one of those guys who understood the extension at the time. My opinion change once more versatile/better players were going for less at the time. I didn't mind Smoak as a bench player as i never saw him as a starter...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=130404993&postcount=96

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=130409861&postcount=100

Like everyone else i was being realistic about my Smoak expectations for 2017 based on 2015 and 2016.

 

[King Mapes]

Just Because this is fun to do with the benefit of hindsight.

How dare you quote me! Haha. I actually didn't mind the contract/risk. We had no other option and Smoak has had potential and hype in the past. 4 mill really isn't much, it was more the fact we were willing to give Smoak regular playing time at a power position when he has had hype but hadn't shown much. But we gambled and it has paid off so far. Smoak is kind of like Rasmus when we had him and I liked that we gambled with him too despite it not working out. Though Rasmus problem was more between the ears.

 

[Eyedea]

Me and probably 99% of the other posters. Though i already admitted this:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=132735965&postcount=456

Plus that comment i made more reflected the market where you could get better players at the time for less than 4M. If the market didn't crater which left many players on the market i probably dont make those comments. I also had similar opinions on Zeke when there were other LF options were available on the market too.

Count me in as one of those guys who understood the extension at the time. My opinion change once more versatile/better players were going for less at the time. I didn't mind Smoak as a bench player as i never saw him as a starter...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=130404993&postcount=96

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=130409861&postcount=100

Like everyone else i was being realistic about my Smoak expectations for 2017 based on 2015 and 2016.

I'm talking about this specific quote:

"What risk? Are you afraid of dumping him and him being turned into a star elsewhere? Smoak is a bench player. Dime a dozen."

It's just funny. I was of the same mind that he's a bench player, but the fact that he's performing like this is hilarious.

 

[phillipmike]

I'm talking about this specific quote:

"What risk? Are you afraid of dumping him and him being turned into a star elsewhere? Smoak is a bench player. Dime a dozen."

It's just funny. I was of the same mind that he's a bench player, but the fact that he's performing like this is hilarious.

Only explanation is that he saw my post, got angry and took it personally.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I think that baseball might be the most conducive out of all the sports for somebody to break out around the age of 30. Baseball is hard, hitting is hard. Sometimes it take a while to "get it". We've seen 3 times already on our team. Although it's probably too early to put Smoak in the category of EE and Bautista.

 

[phillipmike]

Yup and that doesnt include pitching like Estrada and Happ. Add Downs and Scutaro in there if you like and thats just the Jays.

----------

Dont get me wrong as i love Price. Probably my favorite Jays since Halladay even in that short time. And if money were no object i would take Price back in a second but this situation in Boston looks messy.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/price-boston-media-no-asking-questions-personal-level/

Never was a good fit clubhouse/media wise with his past run ins with the Red Sox and Ortiz. I suspect he really didnt want to go to Boston but hard to pass up on a team that always tries to contend and $217 million (though i am sure the MLBPA would have pressured him into taking the most money possible).

This situation doesnt look to end well.. I am sure Price has his reasons but he has a poor attitude. With 5 more years in Boston he is never going to win battling the media.. they are relentless.

 

[Silver91]

Donaldson face protection?

Kind of random, but I haven't really been following the team as much as I'd like this year. I noticed a little while ago that Donaldson is wearing the face protection on his helmet. I know he went on the DL, but I thought it was calf related...is the face protection preventative, or was there an injury I missed?

 

[phillipmike]

Kind of random, but I haven't really been following the team as much as I'd like this year. I noticed a little while ago that Donaldson is wearing the face protection on his helmet. I know he went on the DL, but I thought it was calf related...is the face protection preventative, or was there an injury I missed?

https://www.thescore.com/news/1303678

"Well I did get hit in the face last year. That's pretty much why. Guys are throwing too hard," Donaldson told Sportsnet's Arden Zwelling. "It's part of the game, but I feel like there's a lot of balls that get lost up and in on me. So it's just one more thing that can protect my face.

"When you start dealing with head things - I've been hit in the head a couple times - it's not very fun to have to go through that. And if there's some protection out there, why not use it?"

 

[zeke]

it also looks badass.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Blue Jays: Can Carrera be trusted on defence?

No he can't

 

[Silver91]

https://www.thescore.com/news/1303678

Cool, thanks for the link.