Value of: Josh Norris to PHI

[BKarchitect]

Fair enough, but you said he doesn't have 1C potential, not that he wasn't a smart trade option.

I'd argue a player who puts up 35G and paces for 44G in his sophomore year absolutely does have 1C potential.

I'd argue 20.3% shooting and 65.6% PP point share is pretty unlikely to be a regular, full-season occurrence for anybody.

Fair to give him a pass this year for a bit of uneven overall play but I think if I'm trading for that contract, I'm not assuming his 21-22 is repeatable. If I'm comfortable with that contract for a #2 center who isn't a great playmaker but has a natural nose for the net and may flirt with 30 goals and give me 55 points...and when healthy, solid two-way play and solid face-off ability - then that's a different story.

The Sens should not sell low on him but I think the concerns of "what exactly is Norris' level moving forward, especially in regards to what he is being paid" are legit.

 

[dumbdick]

Norris has been plagued with inconsistent effort and disappearing for long stretches before one timing a few on the powerplay. He is a Lainie lite player and Lainie pro was frequently in the Torts doghouse. It’s just not a great fit.

Yeah, that's a really really terrible take.

You just confirmed you know absolutely nothing about Josh Norris.

 

[NyQuil]

It's amazing how the Senators have all these great Two-Way high producing players and still suck. Never seen a fanbase so in denial about very basic premises, lol.

Plenty of issues with Ottawa's forwards on the defensive side of the puck.

Batherson was almost historically bad last season. Then you have Tkachuk and Stutzle, who either gave the puck away in their own zone too frequently or blew the zone before the team had adequate control.

Some of that undoubtedly is due to DJ's "system" as we've seen improvements on the defensive side of the puck since Martin took over.

Personally, I agree that Norris has not been the same guy since returning from injury, showing some signs of improvement on occasion but not consistently. He has shied away from contact at times and showed a distinct lack of intensity on both sides of the puck.

He was recently under a lot of scrutiny for a scoring slump that might be more excusable if he was contributing in other ways. Thankfully, he's put some goals together recently and his overall game has looked a little better, but it's a small sample.

Before the injury though, his two-way play was strong. Not just one-timers on the PP.

That's why picking on Giroux as a purely offensive talent is a real head-scratcher.

He plays the game like Daniel Alfredsson did - with an immense hockey iQ and work ethic. He's canny, smart, anticipating plays and picking off pucks, winning the vast majority of key faceoffs that he's asked to take (57.7%) (particularly in the defensive zone). He kills penalties.

It's one of the worst takes I've seen on this site - that's why I was so surprised.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Norris has been plagued with inconsistent effort and disappearing for long stretches before one timing a few on the powerplay. He is a Lainie lite player and Lainie pro was frequently in the Torts doghouse. It’s just not a great fit.

Repeating it doesn't make it less stupid either. Still a very stupid argument.

For most of his career, Norris' main appeal has been that he was one of our few forwards who could still contribute even when he's not feeling it offensively. At his best, he is scoring at a 30 goal pace (mostly on the PP) and shutting down the opposition. He's had 15-20 games in his career where he has really struggled - not due to effort, but due to hesitancy - and he seems to have turned the corner.

You know nothing about the player you are discussing. It's embarrassing and it's a trend with you.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah, that's a really really terrible take.

You just confirmed you know absolutely nothing about Josh Norris.

He’s a poor back checker and turns the puck over a lot.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Frost is a 2C

 

[dumbdick]

He’s a poor back checker and turns the puck over a lot.

Again, neither of those things are true.

Are you Donald Trump?

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

He’s a poor back checker and turns the puck over a lot.

Haha what the f*** are you talking about dude, this is completely made up.

He's turned the puck over 90 times in his career... Marner turned the puck over more than that in one year AND he was 3rd in Selke voting.

Bad posts.

 

[NyQuil]

He’s a poor back checker and turns the puck over a lot.

Actually he's a poor forechecker and not all that good along the boards (which is why people saying he should play wing are wrong).

He back-checks perfectly fine.

You can't even criticize him properly.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Frost is a 2C

I've made my thoughts clear on Frost, so I won't get into it too much. But, if I try to place him on a good cup-contending team then I don't see a top 6 or top PP spot for him.

 

[GKJ]

That's why the best trading partner would be with another team that has a player who may or may not recover fully from injury.

The risk is shared on both sides.

Otherwise you're just tossing him for pennies on the dollar.

I agree, I don’t think these are good trading partners.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I'd argue 20.3% shooting and 65.6% PP point share is pretty unlikely to be a regular, full-season occurrence for anybody.

Fair to give him a pass this year for a bit of uneven overall play but I think if I'm trading for that contract, I'm not assuming his 21-22 is repeatable. If I'm comfortable with that contract for a #2 center who isn't a great playmaker but has a natural nose for the net and may flirt with 30 goals and give me 55 points...and when healthy, solid two-way play and solid face-off ability - then that's a different story.

The Sens should not sell low on him but I think the concerns of "what exactly is Norris' level moving forward, especially in regards to what he is being paid" are legit.

The eye test explains why his shot was so deadly last year. He had (and hopefully still has) one of the better one-timers in the league and is not a volume shooter. He's the kind of player who would only shoot when there's a good scoring opportunity, often frustratingly so.

He had a high shooting percentage in his rookie year for these reasons and it will continue to be the case if he recovers from his shoulder surgery and comes back healthy next season.

There's definitely uncertainty in his projection which is why I don't blame people for not wanting to trade nice assets for him at this stage, but I think it would be a mistake for the Sens to trade him now before he's recovered fully.

 

[GKJ]

Fair enough, but you said he doesn't have 1C potential, not that he wasn't a smart trade option.

I'd argue a player who puts up 35G and paces for 44G in his sophomore year absolutely does have 1C potential.

35G-44G is good, but he’s not giving me 50-60 assists with that, he’s giving me maybe 30A? He’s got more goals than assists, for his career, and he’s not even right-handed. On a winner, he’s a not even a center.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

The eye test explains why his shot was so deadly last year. He had (and hopefully still has) one of the better one-timers in the league and is not a volume shooter. He's the kind of player who would only shoot when there's a good scoring opportunity, often frustratingly so.

He had a high shooting percentage in his rookie year for these reasons and it will continue to be the case if he recovers from his shoulder surgery and comes back healthy next season.

There's definitely uncertainty in his projection which is why I don't blame people for not wanting to trade nice assets for him at this stage, but I think it would be a mistake for the Sens to trade him now before he's recovered fully.

Just to add to this: after a few shaky attempts when he first returned, Norris has almost entirely stopped shooting from the place where he scored the a large portion of his goals (and where he shoots at the highest percentage from).

 

[Evergreen]

As someone who has long dealt with shoulder problems, including two surgeries, as a result of playing hockey, I can say with some authority that Norris will never be 100% recovered from his shoulder problems. Saying it’s an injury that takes two years to recover from and then you’re good to go is not at all accurate. Oftentimes your shoulder will never be the same as it was. Or at least you won’t ever mentally feel as confident that your shoulder will hold up. Especially after a reinjury like Norris suffered.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Actually he's a poor forechecker and not all that good along the boards (which is why people saying he should play wing are wrong).

He back-checks perfectly fine.

You can't even criticize him properly.

Well yes, he's weak along the boards and not a good forechecker either, but that doesn't make what I said untrue. Like I said, not a Torts guy, it's a bad fit for the Flyers as the two are incompatible.

 

[NyQuil]

Well yes, he's weak along the boards and not a good forechecker either, but that doesn't make what I said untrue.

Back checking?

The reason Norris is a good back-checker is because he doesn't fully commit to the offensive zone.

It was like Radek Bonk being lauded for his defensive play when he was just lacking intensity in the offensive zone so he never got caught up ice.

But lately he's been going to the net again and surprise, he's scoring goals.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Haha what the f*** are you talking about dude, this is completely made up.

He's turned the puck over 90 times in his career... Marner turned the puck over more than that in one year AND he was 3rd in Selke voting.

Bad posts.

What does Marner have to do with this? Are you claiming Norris is about to be a Selke Finalist?

I can disagree based on my own assessment of a player I've seen plenty of, leave the personal attacks at home.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

What does Marner have to do with this? Are you claiming Norris is about to be a Selke Finalist?

I can disagree based on my own assessment of a player I've seen plenty of, leave the personal attacks at home.

No personal attacks at all - I'm saying your assessment is garbage and almost certainly made up without actually watching the player. And I am also saying that's embarrassing.

If you can't understand the point being re: Norris and puck management... well, there I was about to get into personal attacks. So I'll stop there

 

[WarriorofTime]

No personal attacks at all - I'm saying your assessment is garbage and almost certainly made up without actually watching the player. And I am also saying that's embarrassing.

If you can't understand the point being re: Norris and puck management... well, there I was about to get into personal attacks. So I'll stop there

Literally saw the player in person nine days ago, again, let's try to keep disagreements civil and not resort to calling people liars or "embarrassing" just because they have a different view. I'm sure you see him play more, and I'm sure I'm a lot less biased in the discussion.

 

[SensFactor]

I'd move Norris for a player like Laughton and a good prospect or picks. Sens center depth would be

Stutzle 1c
Pinto 2c
Laughton 3c

Also Sens need cap relief to sign Pinto and Greig eventually

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Literally saw the player in person nine days ago, again, let's try to keep disagreements civil and not resort to calling people liars or "embarrassing" just because they have a different view. I'm sure you see him play more, and I'm sure I'm a lot less biased in the discussion.

I 100% believe that youre forming your evaluation off of one game, I'll give you that.

It's not about "I've seen him play more", it's not about bias, it's about you having absolutely no read on the player. Saying he turns the puck over a lot when he has turned the puck over 90 times in his career is not "a different view". It's completely uninformed to the point that yes, it's embarrassing that you are still trying to make it seem like you are/were not just talking out of your behind.

Nothing uncivil about it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I 100% believe that youre forming your evaluation off of one game, I'll give you that.

It's not about "I've seen him play more", it's not about bias, it's about you having absolutely no read on the player. Saying he turns the puck over a lot when he has turned the puck over 90 times in his career is not "a different view". It's completely uninformed to the point that yes, it's embarrassing that you are still trying to make it seem like you are/were not just talking out of your behind.

Nothing uncivil about it.

You compared him to Marner who obviously carries the puck more often? What was the point of that?

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

You compared him to Marner who obviously carries the puck more often? What was the point of that?

To combat your completely made-up claim that he turns the puck over a lot.

To show people reading this thread and thinking that you might have any idea what your talking about that it's not the case.

To put it another way: since entering the league, there are maybe 5-10 players with fewer giveaways and more points than Norris and most of them have been Selke nominees/winners.

 

[bert]

Norris has been plagued with inconsistent effort and disappearing for long stretches before one timing a few on the powerplay. He is a Lainie lite player and Lainie pro was frequently in the Torts doghouse. It’s just not a great fit.

Illustrating how little you know about the player once again. Plays nothing like Laine, doesnt play the same position. Doesnt have the elite offensive tool kit but competes in all 3 zones and is defensively responsible. The only thing they have in common is they both have good one timers. Laine is right handed, plays another position is bigger with better hands. While norris shoots left, is regularly used on the pk and late in games, plays center, is fast and has a good motor when he is healthy and playing well.