Player Discussion: Josh Bailey

[BroadwayJay*]

Well I don't see where anyone is denying that there are 90 players playing on the first line in the NHL. If anyone is making an argument about someone not being a 1st line player, then clearly they must be doing so not in the literal sense. And you are correct, implicitly he is suggesting that Bailey shouldn't be playing on the first line. In the same vain, someone calling Malkin a 1st line center is implying that Malkin would be playing on a 1st line if he was on another team. The fact of the matter is that enough posters talk about "top paring Dmen" and "1st line centers" in the sense of skill tiers that a statement like "Bailey is not a first line wing" makes sense in that I understand what he is suggesting. If you are truly suggesting that he is claiming there aren't 90 players in the league playing on a first line then I think you are being ignorant for the sake of argument.

I don't know what he is suggesting.

He is saying there are 60 first liners in the NHL and another 60 second liners.

That's absurd. There are 180 people qualified for the job. It is the 180 best forwards.

Any other definition is just ridiculous. Any definition that only he can define is even more so.

This isn't complicated. If you feel Bailey is in the top 180 forwards in the league, which could be debatable I suppose, than you must accept he is second line caliber.

To call him third liner means he is in the bottom half of forwards in the NHL. His scoring totals make hat argument insane but folks are free to make it.

What you can't do is redefine first liners to some subjective personal definition. You can do it, but at the cost of your own credibility. the issue is that he has to do it to make an argument that Bailey is a third liner. That's why he is doing it. It is ends first analysis. Working backward from your desired outcome to divine a formula that reaches the outcome you desire. I simply cannot respect that type of thing. No one should. It is exactly like intelligent design.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I don't know what he is suggesting.

He is saying there are 60 first liners in the NHL and another 60 second liners.

That's absurd. There are 180 people qualified for the job. It is the 180 best forwards.

Any other definition is just ridiculous. Any definition that only he can define is even more so.

This isn't complicated. If you feel Bailey is in the top 180 forwards in the league, which could be debatable I suppose, than you must accept he is second line caliber.

To call him third liner means he is in the bottom half of forwards in the NHL. His scoring totals make hat argument insane but folks are free to make it.

What you can't do is redefine first liners to some subjective personal definition. You can do it, but at the cost of your own credibility. the issue is that he has to do it to make an argument that Bailey is a third liner. That's why he is doing it. It is ends first analysis. Working backward from your desired outcome to divine a formula that reaches the outcome you desire. I simply cannot respect that type of thing. No one should. It is exactly like intelligent design.

I agree with everything you said except for this, because technically more than 360 forwards will play in the NHL this year (even on a consistent basis). Had to be that.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

I agree with everything you said except for this, because technically more than 360 forwards will play in the NHL this year (even on a consistent basis). Had to be that.

This is correct.

I'm at 30,000 feet on the way to TPA. Mistakes get made.

 

[ScaredStreit]

This is correct.

I'm at 30,000 feet on the way to TPA. Mistakes get made.

It's rare when I get an opportunity to strike, can't blame me for going for it (I'd expect nothing less from anyone else). And I meant to say "I had to be that guy "

Enjoy TPA, it's been cold the past few days (by our standards).

 

[BroadwayJay*]

It's rare when I get an opportunity to strike, can't blame me for going for it (I'd expect nothing less from anyone else). And I meant to say "I had to be that guy "

Enjoy TPA, it's been cold the past few days (by our standards).

Yeah I was a little cool when I get out of the pool from my evening swim.

Did I tell you about how I thought I was going to get frostbite walking from my office to the PATH the other day because it was 15 and insanely windy?

 

[PK Cronin]

Well I don't see where anyone is denying that there are 90 players playing on the first line in the NHL. If anyone is making an argument about someone not being a 1st line player, then clearly they must be doing so not in the literal sense. And you are correct, implicitly he is suggesting that Bailey shouldn't be playing on the first line. In the same vain, someone calling Malkin a 1st line center is implying that Malkin would be playing on a 1st line if he was on another team. The fact of the matter is that enough posters talk about "top paring Dmen" and "1st line centers" in the sense of skill tiers that a statement like "Bailey is not a first line wing" makes sense in that I understand what he is suggesting. If you are truly suggesting that he is claiming there aren't 90 players in the league playing on a first line then I think you are being ignorant for the sake of argument.

It's disingenuous to say he's not [x] because of subjective shorthand. It's even more disingenuous when people say he brings nothing to the table, etc. People cannot say he's not a top 6 player, list a bunch of "reasons" why he isn't, like his production or consistency, but then have him near the middle of all top 6 players in those areas. It makes no sense.

Bailey is above average defensively. He's also a consistent .5 ppg player, which puts him just outside the 60 top wingers in the NHL in terms of production. Plays every position and situation as well. I don't know how anyone can say he isn't a top 6 player. Oh, that's right, he doesn't hit anyone!

These parameters that people invent to keep particular players down is pure craziness. Nobody is trying to say Bailey is the same caliber player as Ovechkin simply because he's a first line winger. If you think every first liner should or could be a star, you're insane (not you specifically).

 

[Groin Of Bates]

It's disingenuous to say he's not [x] because of subjective shorthand. It's even more disingenuous when people say he brings nothing to the table, etc. People cannot say he's not a top 6 player, list a bunch of "reasons" why he isn't, like his production or consistency, but then have him near the middle of all top 6 players in those areas. It makes no sense.

Bailey is above average defensively. He's also a consistent .5 ppg player, which puts him just outside the 60 top wingers in the NHL in terms of production. Plays every position and situation as well. I don't know how anyone can say he isn't a top 6 player. Oh, that's right, he doesn't hit anyone!

These parameters that people invent to keep particular players down is pure craziness. Nobody is trying to say Bailey is the same caliber player as Ovechkin simply because he's a first line winger. If you think every first liner should or could be a star, you're insane (not you specifically).

But, he's barely a top-6 on this team...and, it's not about hitting anyone.

 

[periferal]

I figured it out...

To me Josh Bailey is like a Sedin twin who isn't as talented physically or mentally, but thinks he is. As a result he keeps trying high risk plays and keeps mucking them up. If Bailey could simplify his game then his game would round out.

It's like the more rational amongst us can see Josh Bailey as a very good 3rd line player, but Josh doesn't see it that way. He plays like he thinks he's a first line player, but the reality is he just doesn't have that talent/overall game. That doesn't mean he can't be a very nice complimentary player, but as long as his talent and mental game are on different pages we're going to have multiple pages on what a frustrating player he is.

I remember when Matt Hasselbeck finally got a chance to start for the Seahawks, he was so happy to be there that he tried to do everything over his head despite Mike Holmgren/coaches telling him to make the simple play. Finally one game he stopped going for the big play all the time, played WITHIN HIMSELF, and the rest is history. Hasselbeck had good, but not great, physical tools, but more importantly he needed to learn how to use them most effectively. When he did he became a consistent starting QB in the NFL and the Seahawks offense took off.

I don't think Josh Bailey has 1st line potential, but I know he can be a better player than he has been. The problem is his mental game is on a different page than his physical one. I feel like some part of his brain is convinced he should be passing the puck like the Sedin Tiwns, but he's Josh frickin' Bailey.

Know who you are and play within that and the rest will take care of itself.

And this point makes the further point that of what a non-job capuano is doing about getting Bailey to play within himself, but that's a conversation for another board...

 

[Groin Of Bates]

To me Josh Bailey is like a Sedin twin who isn't as talented physically or mentally, but thinks he is. As a result he keeps trying high risk plays and keeps mucking them up. If Bailey could simplify his game then his game would round out.

It's like the more rational amongst us can see Josh Bailey as a very good 3rd line player, but Josh doesn't see it that way. He plays like he thinks he's a first line player, but the reality is he just doesn't have that talent/overall game. That doesn't mean he can't be a very nice complimentary player, but as long as his talent and mental game are on different pages we're going to have multiple pages on what a frustrating player he is.

I remember when Matt Hasselbeck finally got a chance to start for the Seahawks, he was so happy to be there that he tried to do everything over his head despite Mike Holmgren/coaches telling him to make the simple play. Finally one game he stopped going for the big play all the time, played WITHIN HIMSELF, and the rest is history. Hasselbeck had good, but not great, physical tools, but more importantly he needed to learn how to use them most effectively. When he did he became a consistent starting QB in the NFL and the Seahawks offense took off.

I don't think Josh Bailey has 1st line potential, but I know he can be a better player than he has been. The problem is his mental game is on a different page than his physical one. I feel like some part of his brain is convinced he should be passing the puck like the Sedin Tiwns, but he's Josh frickin' Bailey.

Know who you are and play within that and the rest will take care of itself.

And this point makes the further point that of what a non-job capuano is doing about getting Bailey to play within himself, but that's a conversation for another board...

Ex: The reinvention of Steve Bernier

 

[PK Cronin]

But, he's barely a top-6 on this team...and, it's not about hitting anyone.

Who is solidly ahead of him? Tavares, Nielsen, Okposo. He was 3rd on the team last season in ES points, behind Tavares and Strome.

The problem with him, and this entire roster, is that it gets muddled up in our middle 6 too much and we don't have enough standout talent. Bailey is better in certain areas over Lee, Strome, and Nelson (the only guys really challenging him for a top 6 spot), and they are better than he is in other areas. Bailey isn't a problem on this roster if we had one more great player. Unfortunately we don't. He's a top 6 player that might not fit with this team because of our current personnel. That doesn't mean he isn't a top 6 player.

To me Josh Bailey is like a Sedin twin who isn't as talented physically or mentally, but thinks he is. As a result he keeps trying high risk plays and keeps mucking them up. If Bailey could simplify his game then his game would round out.

It's like the more rational amongst us can see Josh Bailey as a very good 3rd line player, but Josh doesn't see it that way. He plays like he thinks he's a first line player, but the reality is he just doesn't have that talent/overall game. That doesn't mean he can't be a very nice complimentary player, but as long as his talent and mental game are on different pages we're going to have multiple pages on what a frustrating player he is.

I remember when Matt Hasselbeck finally got a chance to start for the Seahawks, he was so happy to be there that he tried to do everything over his head despite Mike Holmgren/coaches telling him to make the simple play. Finally one game he stopped going for the big play all the time, played WITHIN HIMSELF, and the rest is history. Hasselbeck had good, but not great, physical tools, but more importantly he needed to learn how to use them most effectively. When he did he became a consistent starting QB in the NFL and the Seahawks offense took off.

I don't think Josh Bailey has 1st line potential, but I know he can be a better player than he has been. The problem is his mental game is on a different page than his physical one. I feel like some part of his brain is convinced he should be passing the puck like the Sedin Tiwns, but he's Josh frickin' Bailey.

Know who you are and play within that and the rest will take care of itself.

And this point makes the further point that of what a non-job capuano is doing about getting Bailey to play within himself, but that's a conversation for another board...

I don't know what high risk plays he's trying, because he really doesn't do that. High risk means it's going the other way in a hurry if it's not completed. That doesn't happen.

 

[Groin Of Bates]

Who is solidly ahead of him? Tavares, Nielsen, Okposo. He was 3rd on the team last season in ES points, behind Tavares and Strome.

The problem with him, and this entire roster, is that it gets muddled up in our middle 6 too much and we don't have enough standout talent. Bailey is better in certain areas over Lee, Strome, and Nelson (the only guys really challenging him for a top 6 spot), and they are better than he is in other areas. Bailey isn't a problem on this roster if we had one more great player. Unfortunately we don't. He's a top 6 player that might not fit with this team because of our current personnel. That doesn't mean he isn't a top 6 player.



I don't know what high risk plays he's trying, because he really doesn't do that. High risk means it's going the other way in a hurry if it's not completed. That doesn't happen.

Just curious...on which teams in the NHL do you believe he can be top-6 on?

 

[rikker]

i believe that the problem with Bailey, as well as a majority of the players in the league, is consistency.
playing well? he's a top 6. sucking? he's AHL fodder.

he's the same age as my son, and when i think of my son, i still see a kid. i honestly believe that Bailey still has room to grow, but i am not confident that captain Cappy understands motivation very well. i can see someone saying, "light a fire under his ass", and Cappy gazing off in the distant, picturing a donkey roasting on a spit.

speaking of age, our core is still very young, and would benefit greatly from another couple of solid vets to lead.

trade some futures for Iginla and Byfuglien? yes please!

 

[Abe Vukota]

i believe that the problem with Bailey, as well as a majority of the players in the league, is consistency.
playing well? he's a top 6. sucking? he's AHL fodder.

he's the same age as my son, and when i think of my son, i still see a kid. i honestly believe that Bailey still has room to grow, but i am not confident that captain Cappy understands motivation very well. i can see someone saying, "light a fire under his ass", and Cappy gazing off in the distant, picturing a donkey roasting on a spit.

speaking of age, our core is still very young, and would benefit greatly from another couple of solid vets to lead.

trade some futures for Iginla and Byfuglien? yes please!

I agree with every word of this post.

 

[periferal]

I don't know what high risk plays he's trying, because he really doesn't do that. High risk means it's going the other way in a hurry if it's not completed. That doesn't happen.

Maybe a better way of putting it was to say Bailey attempts plays/passes with a "low success rate." Either way he doesn't play within himself. It's like everyone outside of Bailey knows he has 3rd line player talent...Except Josh Bailey. Stop trying to be something you're not.

 

[Bones45]

Maybe a better way of putting it was to say Bailey attempts plays/passes with a "low success rate." Either way he doesn't play within himself. It's like everyone outside of Bailey knows he has 3rd line player talent...Except Josh Bailey. Stop trying to be something you're not.

This is good!

 

[periferal]

i believe that the problem with Bailey, as well as a majority of the players in the league, is consistency.
playing well? he's a top 6. sucking? he's AHL fodder.

he's the same age as my son, and when i think of my son, i still see a kid. i honestly believe that Bailey still has room to grow, but i am not confident that captain Cappy understands motivation very well. i can see someone saying, "light a fire under his ass", and Cappy gazing off in the distant, picturing a donkey roasting on a spit.

speaking of age, our core is still very young, and would benefit greatly from another couple of solid vets to lead.

trade some futures for Iginla and Byfuglien? yes please!

I like this post. Yes Bailey needs to be more consistent...As does Okposo, Nelson, Strome, and even Tavares. And yes...Capuano is the last person who travels with the team who will get them to play that way.

And yes this team would be incredibly well serves to get vets like Iginla or Doan to help round out and mentor these young guys (Look what getting Boychuk did for us since we got him).

The problem is trading good future prospects for 1-year help when we could go out and get a real coach to help us for YEARS TO COME and that wouldn't cost any prospect or pick to get. That is maximizing assets and running your franchise in a smart way.

 

[Frankie41987]

It's disingenuous to say he's not [x] because of subjective shorthand. It's even more disingenuous when people say he brings nothing to the table, etc. People cannot say he's not a top 6 player, list a bunch of "reasons" why he isn't, like his production or consistency, but then have him near the middle of all top 6 players in those areas. It makes no sense.

Bailey is above average defensively. He's also a consistent .5 ppg player, which puts him just outside the 60 top wingers in the NHL in terms of production. Plays every position and situation as well. I don't know how anyone can say he isn't a top 6 player. Oh, that's right, he doesn't hit anyone!

These parameters that people invent to keep particular players down is pure craziness. Nobody is trying to say Bailey is the same caliber player as Ovechkin simply because he's a first line winger. If you think every first liner should or could be a star, you're insane (not you specifically).

That isn't disingenuous, it's just poor analysis (in my opinion). My post was not at all a comment on Bailey, I actually really appreciate bailey as a player and have no problem with him playing on the top line. I was simply trying to acknowledge the fact that many posters often use terms like "top pairing Dman" or "1st line center" in reference to a level of skill. So when the other poster was saying something to the effect of "there are only about 60 true top line players" in the league, I think it was disingenuous to explain to him that there are 30 teams each with 3 players on their first line, as if that was the concept he was challenging.

Of course saying "player x is not a first line player" is subjective. And I don't at all agree with his assessment of Bailey, nor his assertion that there are "60 true 1st line players." But about 90% of what is said on here is subjective and it's not fair to paint a picture of him as someone who can't figure out the math of 3 top line players per team. It would be disingenuous to start lecturing Preds fans (before yestersdays trade) about how they have 4 centers, 1 on each line when they complain that they "don't have a first line center." Likewise it would be disingenuous to argue with Oiler fans that they have 2 Dman on their top pairing when they complain that they "don't have a top-pairing Dman." No one is so stupid that they don't realize that there are 30 NHL teams each with 3 players playing on line 1. So it's ignorant for the sake of argument to pretend not to know "Malkin is a top line center" is a reference to skill rather than the actual line he is playing on.

 

[PK Cronin]

Just curious...on which teams in the NHL do you believe he can be top-6 on?

Anaheim
Arizona
Maybe Boston
Buffalo
Calgary
Carolina
Maybe Colorado
Dallas
Minnesota
Nashville
New Jersey
Rangers
Ottawa
Philadelphia
Maybe Pittsburgh
San Jose
Maybe St. Louis
Toronto
Vancouver


So I think 15 pretty clearly and another 4 that are debatable. It does depend on whether or not the teams are healthy, etc. Like Tampa, that's interesting because he's not better than the triplets overall (I don't think) but this year he might be.

 

[Sparksrus3]

How's our 40 pt winger doing. Cause that's what many in here say he is.

Last 14 games
1 goal, 3 helpers, 16 total shots ( includes the 2 from today) and 0 penalty minutes.
I know why is 0 penalty minutes bad? Because he is not engaged in the FReAKEN game mostly .
That's why.
But look at grabs! Look at Lee, look at BLAH blah blah. This is the barely thread.
How about doing something to spark the team. He should just stay on the train downstairs..
4 points 14 games = 40 point season. Woo hooo.
Can't say it's a slump. He is a slump.

 

[isles55]

How's our 40 pt winger doing. Cause that's what many in here say he is.

Last 14 games
1 goal, 3 helpers, 16 total shots ( includes the 2 from today) and 0 penalty minutes.
I know why is 0 penalty minutes bad? Because he is not engaged in the FReAKEN game mostly .
That's why.
But look at grabs! Look at Lee, look at BLAH blah blah. This is the barely thread.
How about doing something to spark the team. He should just stay on the train downstairs..
4 points 14 games = 40 point season. Woo hooo.
Can't say it's a slump. He is a slump.

20 points in 44 games on the year; he's barely below .5 ppg. Penalty minutes are usually not good, and a lack of penalties committed does not prove that he's not involved. I'll agree with you that he's in a bit of a slump however.

 

[PK Cronin]

How's our 40 pt winger doing. Cause that's what many in here say he is.

Last 14 games
1 goal, 3 helpers, 16 total shots ( includes the 2 from today) and 0 penalty minutes.
I know why is 0 penalty minutes bad? Because he is not engaged in the FReAKEN game mostly .
That's why.
But look at grabs! Look at Lee, look at BLAH blah blah. This is the barely thread.
How about doing something to spark the team. He should just stay on the train downstairs..
4 points 14 games = 40 point season. Woo hooo.
Can't say it's a slump. He is a slump.

Okay, take away those 14 games and where's his production at? Better than .5 ppg. The offense is slumping as a whole, don't know if you noticed that.

Stop complaining about 0 PIMS, it's the most ridiculous complaint I've ever heard of. "This guys is terrible, he won't even give the other team a PP and force Strait to be on the ice more often!"

 

[Seph]

How's our 40 pt winger doing. Cause that's what many in here say he is.

Last 14 games
1 goal, 3 helpers, 16 total shots ( includes the 2 from today) and 0 penalty minutes.
I know why is 0 penalty minutes bad? Because he is not engaged in the FReAKEN game mostly .
That's why.
But look at grabs! Look at Lee, look at BLAH blah blah. This is the barely thread.
How about doing something to spark the team. He should just stay on the train downstairs..
4 points 14 games = 40 point season. Woo hooo.
Can't say it's a slump. He is a slump.

Bailey has 12 PIM, Nielsen has 8 PIM. Ergo, Bailey has been more involved than Nielsen? What kind of logic is this?

And it's true that Bailey has not sparked the team's offense. Then again, neither has anyone else on the team. If you expect a 2nd line forward to spark your offense, rather than your top line guys, you're going to have a bad time.

Offensively, Bailey is a support player, not the guy who drives the play. I know everyone prefers guys that drive the play, but you need both to win.

 

[PK Cronin]

Bailey has 12 PIM, Nielsen has 8 PIM. Ergo, Bailey has been more involved than Nielsen? What kind of logic is this?

And it's true that Bailey has not sparked the team's offense. Then again, neither has anyone else on the team. If you expect a 2nd line forward to spark your offense, rather than your top line guys, you're going to have a bad time.

Offensively, Bailey is a support player, not the guy who drives the play. I know everyone prefers guys that drive the play, but you need both to win.

We need John Scott for all those PIMS, he's definitely engaged.

 

[Sparksrus3]

We need John Scott for all those PIMS, he's definitely engaged.

Ok fine . No more PIM comments on Bailey. Just tired of seeing all the zeros in his stat column game after game
Frans drives play more in 1 game than Josh in a month?

I'm just an old man who had a little to much wine. I want everybody here to know your gonna have no trouble from me.Cicci, la porta.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Ok fine . No more PIM comments on Bailey. Just tired of seeing all the zeros in his stat column game after game
Frans drives play more in 1 game than Josh in a month?

I'm just an old man who had a little to much wine. I want everybody here to know your gonna have no trouble from me.Cicci, la porta.

You should come to a game with me. I think you would be fun.