TheWanderer
Registered User
- Nov 15, 2013
- 4,959
- 32
Most people here would agree that he'll at least get a contract that brings him to next year's camp. That's about the only opportunity he deserves at this point, considering what he's had since we drafted him.
Most of us think he will lose his place on the team and either hit Utica or get claimed on his way down.
Anyone who is writing him off is saying not to even give him a QO. If you look closely, most people aren't saying that.
Most of us think he will lose his place on the team and either hit Utica or get claimed on his way down.
Anyone who is writing him off is saying not to even give him a QO. If you look closely, most people aren't saying that.
vanuck
Now with 100% less Benning!
- Dec 28, 2009
- 16,803
- 4,035
If he re-signs for 600k or so, I think he'll be back. I certainly think you could do a lot, lot worse than having JS as a bottom 6/extra forward at that price.
Are we making the Derek Roy comparison for JS now?
I would think he's like David Desharnais if everything works out for him.
He hasn't shown anything to suggest that he'd be as good as Roy or even Desharnais unfortunately. JS hasn't been dominate in the AHL nor has he pushed the offence in the NHL.
I don't know Roy history well enough, I am not going to go stat scouting on him, but if you want it, at 23, his last full year in the AHL, he was under a ppg pace, he did do better than JS in his first full season, but I don't know where he played in the Buffalo lineup or how he got there.
Also you missed the entire point that was being made. I don't think JS will be as good as St Louis, but I used him as an extreme example (there are more, actually probably way more) that show you shouldn't judge a guy after playing 54 NHL games on the 4th line. I think he still has a ton of upside with his vision, and would like to at least seem him get an actual real shot playing more than a handful of minutes with scoring talent.
He showed well with Kas and Booth, had good chemistry last year with Raymond, but has still yet to get real time playing with scoring guys. I won't even say he wont fail, I just think the way we have been using him so far in his NHL career is not how he should be playing. I would give him 60/40 ods on being a decent setup man.
I don't see JS as a Canuck much longer and he will most likely be shipped out.
We talk about playing time so much, but there is only so many spots in the top 6...only six spots. If JS were to occupy one of those spots, we are not a playoff team. He needs to be successful in the offensive zone and those offense zone starts are given to better players we have: Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Higgins, Kassian.
It's unfortunate, because he seems like a good kid and willing to pay his dues, but with our prospects coming up who are showing more potential, it's tough to see him as a long term fixture. Horvat is built for a 3rd line role with his game and size. Schroeder needs to be a winger in the top 6, similar to Raymond.
As for playing with Booth/Kassian. I feel Richardson was better with Kassian/Matthais. And Booth was good with Kassian.
Edit: I don't know why I underlined Patrick Kane.
At the draft I would agree with you and I was very excited that he dropped to us.
Unfortunately his progress since his draft year has been...well pretty lousy, for a guy who we were looking at right after the draft.
Talk about him staying here is almost pointless, the coach doesn't have confidence in him and he hasn't shown enough to prove the coach wrong on any count as well.
Steveorama
Registered User
Jordan won't be back next year.
He may be more successful in the Eastern Conference.
I suspect Canucks will trade his rights to a team needing offensive help in the East.
NJ? Carolina? Montreal?
He may be more successful in the Eastern Conference.
I suspect Canucks will trade his rights to a team needing offensive help in the East.
NJ? Carolina? Montreal?
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I count five top 6 guys here with one on his way out. Read what I have said before.
I did say the chances of Schroeder having an impact like St. Louis was minimal. Pretty much zero, but Schroeder does have some talent at least.
Just pointing out that you were inaccurate in saying that St. Louis was a terror in the minors at the same age that Schroeder was last year. A 12 point difference is substantial, but a 12 points less than a terror is a pretty darned good player. So unless you are claiming that Schroeder was an excellent AHL player last year, it would be more accurate to say that St. Louis was a good player in the minors at that age, but not yet a terror.
At 21, in his last year of college, St. Louis scored 60 points in 36 GP. Schroeder (while a year younger) scored 28 points in 37 GP. At the AHL/IHL level, at age 22, Martin St. Louis actually scored 88 points in 81 GP. Would have been good enough for 4th in the AHL in scoring that year... As a 22 year old. Schroeder had 33 points in 42 GP, even if you give him his "pace" that year, he's middle of the pack scoring wise league-wide last year.
No one denies Schroeder has talent. A lot of little guys have talent in the hockey world, but that's not what gets some of them to the NHL. I'm at the rink a lot and there are a lot of 5-6 guys that can dangle at all levels. Schroeder is weak on the boards and floats on the perimeter. Unless he starts driving the net, gets a lot stronger and makes some things happen, he's not an NHL player, never mind compareable to one of the top scoring hockey players of the last decade.
If you think Jordan Schroeder is the next Martin St. Louis, you're gonna have a bad time.
With this, I think with small guys (as with power forwards) they often need more time to learn little tricks and techniques to allow them to do this. Quite a few small players took longer to get to the NHL and still had success (Desharnais, Gionta, St Louis, MacDonald). Personally, I would have preferred to had Schroeder in the minors last season and to start this year to continue developing, but our poor center depth didn't allow that.
Because of injury Schroeder has really only had one NHL season, and has shown flashes of good vision and playmaking skills when healthy. I don't think he will reach the level of St Louis (most first overall picks would be lucky to reach the level of St Louis), but he still has plenty of time to develop those aspects you mentioned.
<obligatory post informing you that he's never going to be MSL>
Oh no it's happening again!!
Yeah, people need to realize that MSL is a unique player. It seems like every small player gets compared to MSL and every big one to Bertuzzi, Neely or Lucic. All of those players are the exceptions and not the rule. Now let's talk about Subban becoming the next Rafalski.
Honestly I'm viewing this thread like the five stages of grief. We've moved on from denial and a bit of anger here, I see Pauser is already doing a bit of bargaining ("if only we'd developed him properly") and then we have depression and we can finally accept seeing him on waivers at the end of training camp!
ddawg1950
Registered User
Honestly I'm viewing this thread like the five stages of grief. We've moved on from denial and a bit of anger here, I see Pauser is already doing a bit of bargaining ("if only we'd developed him properly") and then we have depression and we can finally accept seeing him on waivers at the end of training camp!
And then, much like the religious version of death, he can move on to a far better place!
I've said a couple times that I don't think Schroeder is going to be the next Martin St. Louis, so I'm not sure what that last comment is for... Seems redundant given that everyone agrees on that.
I don't know where you are getting your info from though. I checked two sources and both have St. Louis at 76 points in 81 games at age 22. That would have put him 12th in AHL scoring at age 22.
Schroeder's full season 76 game pace last year would have put him at 60 points, good for a tie for 12th in AHL scoring at age 22.
St. Louis was a beast during college for sure. However, if you use accurate minor league data, St. Louis and Schroeder both finished at 12th in scoring during their 22 year old season. No guarantee that Schroeder would keep that pace up for another 30+ games, but there's also no need to distort the data to say that St. Louis was a terror and Schroeder was middle of the pack in the AHL at 22. That's not true.
Barney Gumble
Registered User
- Jan 2, 2007
- 22,711
- 1
First of all, JS is no MSL.
But I think you are watching his bio sheet not his actual play on the ice.
Schroeder is small, but he also plays pretty strong on the puck and on the boards. Obviously at his size he's not going to win battles against the bigger defensemen in the league, but he plays with a lot of leverage and balance and protects the puck fairly well. He's also a Centre, so his responsibilities in both the O-zone and D-zone are somewhat different than for a Winger who absolutely has to win those battles. But JS absolutely does not "float". He back checks and comes back deep in the D-zone as an outlet and generally leads the breakout. As a play maker, he likes to have the puck on his stick and we've all seen him make some beautiful passes.
As far as being a "perimeter" player - this is a term that is often tossed around and applied to every player who is less than 215lb or so. There are a lot of players, regardless of size whose game is based on finding space and making plays. Jason Spezza is 6'3" and 220lb, and while he does make the occasional power move, the vast majority of his goals are scored from the high slot or top of the circle. He relies more on speed and dangles than on power and strength. For a smaller player, it is not playing to your strength to get tied up with a defenseman who has a 6" and 40lb advantage over you. Even small players who have reputations for playing a very hard nosed style - guys like Theo Fleury, Brian Gionta, Pat Verbeek, etc. if you watched their game, they initiated a lot of contact, but they tended not to get initiated upon. Small players understand that it does not play to their strengths to stand in front of the net and get leaned on and cross checked by Shea Weber or Zdeno Chara. Certainly every team needs players who can muck it out in the corners and in front of the net, but that doesn't mean every player on the team has to be that type of player. Gretzky was a perimeter player and Brett Hull was the biggest floater in the game. They are both in the HHOF.
JS is never going to be your net front presence, nor is he going to make Todd Bertuzzi style power moves to the slot, but he does get into scoring range; 10' - 20' in the high slot. He's just inconsistent about it. Some games he gets 2 or 3 shots, then he gets blanked for the next couple of games. Some games he's very engaged and driving the play. Others he is invisible. But inconsistency is kind of what you expect from a player with 50 games NHL experience. The biggest problem with Schroeder is that he took too long to get to this point. The clock has almost run out on him. He may get a qualifying offer this summer and have one last shot at training camp, after that, he will likely be waived and assigned to Utica if he clears.
BTW -I've mentioned a number of past and present NHL players. I'm not comparing JS to them, I mention them to provide reference to a certain styles of play that are employed by NHL players of various skills and sizes. I'm also not a Jordan Schroeder fan boy. As a shorter player, he had an uphill battle from the beginning. I just don't like the way he's been handled this year (or last). I probably wouldn't have drafted him, IIRC, I was hoping a D (Leddy, Rundblad, Moore) would fall to us and when they were off the board I wasn't really sold on anyone.
Ernie
Registered User
- Aug 3, 2004
- 12,841
- 2,295
The problem is that Schroeder just doesn't do enough good things to make up for his obvious disadvantages.
The inconsistency argument due to limited NHL games isn't a very good one when you consider that the problems that have plagued him in the NHL were the same ones he had in the AHL.
The inconsistency argument due to limited NHL games isn't a very good one when you consider that the problems that have plagued him in the NHL were the same ones he had in the AHL.
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