Jonathan Bernier - To the AHL on a Conditioning Stint

[Ovate]

I'm not even interested in a starter, they are too expensive and when injured the season is lost. I'm only interested in backup type goalies and Bernier is too expensive in that role. I would alternate my goalies. What happened to Bernier and Reimer now with misusing them would likely not happen when alternated. Using them to their strength would improve their performance too. The saved money I would invest on D.

We're not close to a cap team, so the point is moot.

Get the goalie with the highest potential, a.k.a. Bernier.

 

[airbus220]

We're not close to a cap team, so the point is moot.

Get the goalie with the highest potential, a.k.a. Bernier.

I think we all know what Bernier is, he can be good, but there's not much potential left. If you are looking for high potential you should have traded for Jones, 2 years younger and not as smallish as Bernier. Or, if you couldn't effort to pay a 1st rd pick there was Nilsson available too, much more potential.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I think we all know what Bernier is, he can be good, but there's not much potential left. If you are looking for high potential you should have traded for Jones, 2 years younger and not as smallish as Bernier. Or, if you couldn't effort to pay a 1st rd pick there was Nilsson available too, much more potential.

Yes that extra year and a half Nilsson has with absolutely zero track record of being able to perform at the NHL level clearly shows a lot more potential.

Bernier has shown what he is capable of. Elite level goaltending. It's just a question of consistency.

 

[hfman]

They can both go. Toronto needs to move on from these goalies. Been long enough now. It would be good for the team and good for the both of them too - Leafs get a fresh start with new tenders and the two of them get a fresh start elsewhere. It's long overdue.

 

[showtime8]

Sure. But it's worth mentioning that outside that Detroit game, the team has played very well even after the soft goals Bernier has let in. For us to talk about what an effect the soft goals have on the team, there should at least be a noticeable effect on the ice. If we instead continue playing the same, or even better, then that effect is either not there or not something to worry about.

Yeah, I think the response is just as important after a soft goal to see the character of a team.

The only problem that Toronto faces is they have no one that can score. That's the huge issue with chasing the game.

It would be okay if there's 2 or 3 guys that you could count on a nightly basis that you know are going to show up. But there just isn't on this team.

And that's where the goaltender comes into play huge. You need them to steal games more often than they cost games.

 

[airbus220]

Yes that extra year and a half Nilsson has with absolutely zero track record of being able to perform at the NHL level clearly shows a lot more potential.

Bernier has shown what he is capable of. Elite level goaltending. It's just a question of consistency.

Nilsson lost more than a season of development because of an illness and the doc couldn't find what it was. I had an illness too in my career and it took me 6 month till I found a doc who knew what he was doing. See Nilsson as a 24 year old in development.

 

[showtime8]

They can both go. Toronto needs to move on from these goalies. Been long enough now. It would be good for the team and good for the both of them too - Leafs get a fresh start with new tenders and the two of them get a fresh start elsewhere. It's long overdue.

There's basically less than 5% of an option that they would have.

Who are they going to get?

Is anyone going to take a chance on Bernier at 4.15? Maybe.

Teams are more willing to trade their back-ups right now. And while you are more than welcome to do that, it's a sideways move and you're doing it to just for the sake of making a trade.

 

[hfman]

There's basically less than 5% of an option that they would have.

Who are they going to get?

Is anyone going to take a chance on Bernier at 4.15? Maybe.

Teams are more willing to trade their back-ups right now. And while you are more than welcome to do that, it's a sideways move and you're doing it to just for the sake of making a trade.

just being hypothetical. In a perfect world it would be great to ship both of them out and bring in another two that could start fresh and provide no less than what these two were already providing: inconsistent, average goaltending. But at least it would be a new beginning for everyone involved as it seems complacency is slowly creeping in to both Reimer and Bernier. To replace inconsistent goalies with another set of inconsistent goalies would at least be starting with a fresh slate and offer the possibility of improvement seeing as that they'd be in a new environment. I think Reimer and Bernier have capped out and are on borrowed time, just dangling there and it shows in their play.

 

[airbus220]

There's basically less than 5% of an option that they would have.

Who are they going to get?

Is anyone going to take a chance on Bernier at 4.15? Maybe.

Bernier is untradeable with his salary. But it doesn't matter Leafs can effort to retain salary.
There will be always goalies available, like in the past. I would watch Hutchinson. Berra could be also interesting, he's just not as young as Hutch and there are others, same as there was Bernier some years ago.

 

[tml19]

Nilsson lost more than a season of development because of an illness and the doc couldn't find what it was. I had an illness too in my career and it took me 6 month till I found a doc who knew what he was doing. See Nilsson as a 24 year old in development.

That might have been the dumbest thing I have read today. So Bernier having an extra year of experience is a bad thing? It is like people put a deadline where players are not allowed to develop beyond this age. Bernier is still very young for a goaltender and just 2 years ago he showed elite skill and talent. He has not been very good this year so far but that could change in a few days. Goalies are often streaky but Bernier is streaky to a new extent. If he can manage to find that consistency I think he has the talent to be a top 10 goalie in this league. To conclude, goalies are weird and you never know when they will become good.

 

[saltming]

I think we all know what Bernier is, he can be good, but there's not much potential left. If you are looking for high potential you should have traded for Jones, 2 years younger and not as smallish as Bernier. Or, if you couldn't effort to pay a 1st rd pick there was Nilsson available too, much more potential.

Price for his first 6 years. 920% .905% .912% .923% .905%
So by your logic the habs should have given up on him because they knew what they had after 2 years and 7 games? Did they see potential that could be developed?
Do you think goalies fall out of the sky and are instant stars as a norm? And I'm not saying bernier will become a #1 but I am saying it's still too soon to know and he has the potential that can be developed. Maybe that's why the hockey minds gave him 2 more years? Maybe they think after that time his development will be done for good or bad?
It took price 6 years and a brilliant goalie coach to become the modern day version of the Dominator that he is. And for the record he was known for letting in sorties.
As a leafs fan I hope bernier can develop like that. We need a #1 goalie and they are more elusive than a #1 C, so for our sake as fans I pray he does, because I want my team to win. If he doesn't then we keep looking/drafting whatevering to find the guy.

 

[airbus220]

Bernier is only 1 year younger than Price.
Why do you think did LA traded Bernier if he had so much potential.
The difference is the Habs didn't trade Price.

 

[saltming]

Bernier is only 1 year younger than Price.
Why do you think did LA traded Bernier if he had so much potential.
The difference is the Habs didn't trade Price.

Quick was signed for years after winning the cup and winning the Conn Smythe. Player loyalty to a good soldier. L.A. Had backup in the wings waiting and knew they could get some assets for bernier. Good asset management on their part as Quick will be between the pipes for several more years. Pretty hard for a team to trade away a guy that wonthe cup on the Conn Smythe at the same time.
The habs had Halak and Price at the same time. The fans wanted Halak as he was the more dependable guy between the pipes but the habs chose Price because of his potential and draft position.
The 1 year difference in age is moot Imo. I like to think of it in playing years. Price has 8 years as a starter and Bernier 2. It took Price 6 years to become steady and dominant and a big part of that is the new goalie coach. That's why I make those comparisons just to see what development curves look like. Goalies are impossible to predict with certainty. Teams have to project develop and pray Imo.

 

[tml19]

Bernier is only 1 year younger than Price.
Why do you think did LA traded Bernier if he had so much potential.
The difference is the Habs didn't trade Price.

Jonathan Quick is a hockey player.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Nilsson lost more than a season of development because of an illness and the doc couldn't find what it was. I had an illness too in my career and it took me 6 month till I found a doc who knew what he was doing. See Nilsson as a 24 year old in development.

Bernier: 27, have shown that he can play at an elite level over a large sample size. Needs consistency.
Nilsson: 25, have shown zero ability so far to be anything at all at the NHL level. Needs to not only produce, but do it over a good sample size and with some consistency before he catches up to Bernier.

When Bernier was Nilsson's age he was much further ahead in the development curve.

Bernier is only 1 year younger than Price.
Why do you think did LA traded Bernier if he had so much potential.
The difference is the Habs didn't trade Price.

LA traded him because they had Vezina runner-up and Conn Smythe-winner Quick in goal. Bernier was regarded as one of the top young, unestablished goaltenders at the time.

I watch a ton of LA and have many friends that are Kings-fans. Many of them saw Bernier as the better goaltender in the regular season.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

The problem with Bernier is we never know on any given night whether we're going to get Bern-yay or Bern-boo.

If I was Babcock, I would start him 10 or so games in a row. We have nothing to lose, and he's the guy that management decided to give the starter's salary to, whether warranted or not. Enough flip flopping; as long as he doesn't completely stink the joint up, just keep starting him so we can find out whether he's actually capable of putting 4-5 quality starts together.

If he does poorly over those 10 or so starts, ride Reimer for 5-10 straight.

The fact that we're resting Bernier every second game even with 6 day breaks is pointless. Starters need to be able to carry the load; it's time to actually give Bernier a real load to carry and then re-evaluate from there.

 

[airbus220]

Bernier: 27, have shown that he can play at an elite level over a large sample size. Needs consistency.
Nilsson: 25, have shown zero ability so far to be anything at all at the NHL level. Needs to not only produce, but do it over a good sample size and with some consistency before he catches up to Bernier.

When Bernier was Nilsson's age he was much further ahead in the development curve.



LA traded him because they had Vezina runner-up and Conn Smythe-winner Quick in goal. Bernier was regarded as one of the top young, unestablished goaltenders at the time.

I watch a ton of LA and have many friends that are Kings-fans. Many of them saw Bernier as the better goaltender in the regular season.

What sample size did Bernier have in LA, not much. In LA he never had a starters workload, playing some games every 2nd day. Bernier was unproven as a starter at the time of the trade. We were talking about potential and Nilsson still has it, Bernier not so much.

You should have traded for Jones, LA got a #16 overall pick for him. For Bernier they got only a 2nd rd pick, Scrivens and Frattin.

 

[airbus220]

The problem with Bernier is we never know on any given night whether we're going to get Bern-yay or Bern-boo.

If I was Babcock, I would start him 10 or so games in a row. We have nothing to lose, and he's the guy that management decided to give the starter's salary to, whether warranted or not. Enough flip flopping; as long as he doesn't completely stink the joint up, just keep starting him so we can find out whether he's actually capable of putting 4-5 quality starts together.

If he does poorly over those 10 or so starts, ride Reimer for 5-10 straight.

The fact that we're resting Bernier every second game even with 6 day breaks is pointless. Starters need to be able to carry the load; it's time to actually give Bernier a real load to carry and then re-evaluate from there.

Babcock tried that in the 2nd game Oct 9 and Bernier wasn't ready for so much pressure.
Bernier isn't rested every 2nd game, he played Oct 17, 21, 24 consecutive games.

 

[GBLeaf]

My opinion on goaltenders is that a lot of people are overly harsh on them.

It's the hardest position on the ice. A mistake often means a goal against, and when one is in a side that is poor, it only serves to make them look worse.

I think it's too early to give up on Bernier. He's shown glimpses of his potential imo. There's absolutely nothing to lose with him being here for the next 2/3 years and continue to see how he improves as the team and the protection he will receive does.

In any walk of like, not only hockey, people improve and reach their potential at different ages. In all sports the goaltenders/keepers usually develop later in their careers, as experience plays a huge part.

Taking one of Bernier's biggest weaknesses into account, which is his level of focus at early stages in periods. That's not a technical flaw that is irreparable in my opinion. That's a mental issue that can improve with time and experience.

He's 27, so in 3 years time when you'd like to think we might be looking at being a team that is pushing for the play-offs, he'll still only be 30. Therefore, in my opinion it's well worth sticking by him. If a fantastic opportunity to trade for a real exciting goaltender turns up in the meantime, fair enough. But I still believe he is talented, and that there's a consistent goaltender in there.

 

[cookie]

It's not like the team is helping the goalies out. Shot rates from the high danger areas are consistently higher than the league average not just in prior years but also including this one. Since systems have a tangible effect on goalie performance, it would be nice to see more than 7 games of the team applying Babcock's system to form an opinion. Both goalies can play better than what we've seen so far.

 

[Nithoniniel]

What sample size did Bernier have in LA, not much. In LA he never had a starters workload, playing some games every 2nd day. Bernier was unproven as a starter at the time of the trade. We were talking about potential and Nilsson still has it, Bernier not so much.

You should have traded for Jones, LA got a #16 overall pick for him. For Bernier they got only a 2nd rd pick, Scrivens and Frattin.

I didn't say he was a proven starter, I said he was one of the top young goaltenders. Reading comprehension, Lenny.

Nilsson might have more room to grow, but he is also much much further away. And he has to grow in quality, while Bernier only has to grow in consistency.

 

[thewave]

I didn't say he was a proven starter, I said he was one of the top young goaltenders. Reading comprehension, Lenny.

Nilsson might have more room to grow, but he is also much much further away. And he has to grow in quality, while Bernier only has to grow in consistency.

Hold up. You said Bernier had an elite level of performance over a large sample size? I strongly disagree. He came in and played well until teams figured him out and he has never floated on the balloon of inflated expectations ever since.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Hold up. You said Bernier had an elite level of performance over a large sample size? I strongly disagree. He came in and played well until teams figured him out and he has never floated on the balloon of inflated expectations ever since.

Can you substantiate the claim that teams figured him out?

Between he came to Toronto and christmas last season, he was one of the top 5 goaltenders in the league statistically. So yeah, he played at an elite level over a large sample size.

 

[thewave]

Can you substantiate the claim that teams figured him out?

Between he came to Toronto and christmas last season, he was one of the top 5 goaltenders in the league statistically. So yeah, he played at an elite level over a large sample size.

Awarding him an elite designation of any sort after the games he played is just so wrong. You can say he got hot but did he carry the team into the POs? Elite performances win games over years. You can't just white-wash all the flaws in his game that were present even then. G Coaches sit around and study where tenders are weak and the players are instructed accordingly where to shoot.

Goalies come into the league looking like Brodeur all the time, then... They are scouted and exploited, fail and bow out.

Really he has only played some games in LA where he looked good putting up Comparable numbers to Ben Scrivens(LA). Then started playing here and looked great for a while, then started losing games in Dec of 13' I think. The team collapsed and he was injured as well. That was it. Big whoop

 

[airbus220]

Can you substantiate the claim that teams figured him out?

Between he came to Toronto and christmas last season, he was one of the top 5 goaltenders in the league statistically. So yeah, he played at an elite level over a large sample size.

So you compare Bernier at 27 and what he did with the Leafs the last 2 years with Nilsson who is 25 and lost 1 year of development due to an illness and who played KHL last season?
If some said that Bernier in LA was better than Quick, why not compare Bernier in TO with Quick.