Jonathan Bernier - Player Discussion 2016

[MikeBabchuk]

Sorry, but the bolded is just stupid. Even the most dedicated Bernier hater would agree it's stupid to just give away an asset for free. You don't move assets at their lowest value... that's some serious Dave Nonis talk right there.

I agree with that, practically speaking.

That said, even if Bernier finishes the season strong, goalies don't garner much on the trade market and his contract remains unattractive.

It's likely that the best case scenario is that we can get a mid-round pick in return for Bernier if we also take a bad contract back. But yes, getting Bernier back to playing at least competently goes a long way as far as teams at least gambling on him as a reclamation project.

 

[Paradoc]

Sorry, but the bolded is just stupid. Even the most dedicated Bernier hater would agree it's stupid to just give away an asset for free. You don't move assets at their lowest value... that's some serious Dave Nonis talk right there.

I seriously wonder how this fan base is going to deal with Lundqvist's month, considering his numbers in the last 15 games are MUCH worse than Bernier.

 

[Paradoc]

I agree with that, practically speaking.

That said, even if Bernier finishes the season strong, goalies don't garner much on the trade market and his contract remains unattractive.

It's likely that the best case scenario is that we can get a mid-round pick in return for Bernier if we also take a bad contract back. But yes, getting Bernier back to playing at least competently goes a long way as far as teams at least gambling on him as a reclamation project.

If Bernier plays well I rather keep him and sign a back up goalie. I don't want to spend another 5 years looking for a good goalie.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

If Bernier plays well I rather keep him and sign a back up goalie. I don't want to spend another 5 years looking for a good goalie.

I'm not sure how Babcock would feel about letting Reimer go if he keeps up his play.

 

[Paradoc]

I'm not sure how Babcock would feel about letting Reimer go if he keeps up his play.

It's been 15 games... It's not like Babcock favors Reimer. He stated at the start of the season that Bernier is number one and has been supporting him throughout his bad stretch. If anything Babcock wants Bernier to succeed.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

Nope. You actually have to play and maintain your stats for that to be a fact.

I agree, I want to see Reimer play ~ what the elite guys are playing before calling him a top 5 goalie. You can't be a top tier guy if you haven't played the majority of your team's games.

Reimer has had a breakout season and has shown the ability to play like a top 5 goalie for a spell. The next step is to extend it over a longer stretch and continue to prove that his improvements to his technical game and the clean slate with Babcock giving him a fair shake has led to empirically evident on-ice improvement over the long term, not just the short term.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

It's been 15 games... It's not like Babcock favors Reimer. He stated at the start of the season that Bernier is number one and has been supporting him throughout his bad stretch. If anything Babcock wants Bernier to succeed.

Of course he does, he wants everyone to succeed.

But ultimately it comes down to a choice between Reimer and Bernier at the end of the season. Babcock is all about doing what's right. I question whether he would say "see ya!" to Reimer if he ends the year with a .929-.935 save percentage or something and stick with Bernier if he has a .903 save % just because he happens to have another season on his contract and Reimer is a UFA.

Management do have to make what they believe to be the correct decision, not necessarily just the convenient or easy one.

Who knows how it will play out from here, but it makes more sense to move out Bernier to accommodate Reimer's extension as it does to let Reimer walk and award Bernier the starting job in the event that he hasn't earned it (which he still could, one would think, but that's a big if and a long way from likely).

 

[Cor]

It's possible Reimer gets signed to a 1 year contract for next season.

Sparks could use more time anyway

 

[airbus220]

Every decent goalie gets 2 years now, Johnson, Greiss, Neuvirth, McElhinney ...
Why should Reimer sign for 1 year only. Bernier was gifted a 2 year contract with choosing arbitration. They have to make a decision and keep only one and then sign Montoya in the offseason for 1.5M. If the room likes more to play for Reimer and you can sign Reimer to a reasonable contract you trade Bernier. Otherwise you should shoot yourself when Bernier got scored again from center ice.

 

[airbus220]

Sorry, but the bolded is just stupid. Even the most dedicated Bernier hater would agree it's stupid to just give away an asset for free. You don't move assets at their lowest value... that's some serious Dave Nonis talk right there.

Some days ago Bernier wasn't an asset, he was only a bad contract who lost every game. Suddenly after 4 good games and 3 bad games in between Bernier is an asset again.

 

[edwardslane]

Some days ago Bernier wasn't an asset, he was only a bad contract who lost every game. Suddenly after 4 good games and 3 bad games in between Bernier is an asset again.

It's Toronto for one.. Everything is analyzed under a microscope.. Bernier started terribly.. 0-8-3 or whatever.. Sub .900 save %.. sent down to the marlies on a conditioning stint.

Meanwhile reimer was posting top 5 save% and GAA .. It was bad for Bernier and no wonder his value plummeted.

Now he's playing solid enough and stealing some games.. 40 save performances against some good teams ( st louis and Pens) showing hes not washed up and was clearly too good for the AHL with 3 shutouts in 4 games.

not sure where his value settles out but he's no longer a ?? if a team would even claim him on waivers.

 

[BraveCanadian]

That's not a fact...

At the moment he is #1 in save percentage and #3 in GAA while playing on a mediocre team.. but Reimer isn't top 5 this year?

Tough crowd..

 

[Tak7]

It's possible Reimer gets signed to a 1 year contract for next season.

Sparks could use more time anyway

Reimer is a full UFA at the end of the year - he will get a decent offer from someone that is giving him more than Toronto.

You'd imagine both Edmonton and Winnipeg will be throwing in some interest.

 

[cookie]

I seriously wonder how this fan base is going to deal with Lundqvist's month, considering his numbers in the last 15 games are MUCH worse than Bernier.

What else were the Rangers expecting from a 7th rounder? They'd be lucky to get a 6th round pick if they trade him. /s

I have rarely seen an NHL goalie not hit his fair share of rough patches. Bernier, hopefully, should rebound into form and I expect the same for Lundqvist.

In terms of who to keep for the long-term... it gets really interesting. Both Bernier and Reimer have their health issues: concussions and leg/groin issues. But both of them have also shown a capability to play at an all-star's level. Reimer might be a cheaper option in the long-run but will he be able to play as a back up or is be strictly a 1B kind of guy?

 

[Cor]

Reimer is a full UFA at the end of the year - he will get a decent offer from someone that is giving him more than Toronto.

You'd imagine both Edmonton and Winnipeg will be throwing in some interest.

Based On?

Winnipeg has Pavelec, Hutch, and Hellebyuk.

Edmonton has Talbot and Nilsson.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Sorry, but the bolded is just stupid. Even the most dedicated Bernier hater would agree it's stupid to just give away an asset for free. You don't move assets at their lowest value... that's some serious Dave Nonis talk right there.

it is not for free.

in a cap world - contract space + 4.1 million dollars is an asset.
Bernier would net what? a 2nd (or lower) pick added. Let's just be honest here. Anything Bernier would net would be less than a first, and higher than a 4th.

Even if he was playing at league standard - what specifically would the difference be in a bloated goalie market? 4.1 is a lot to swallow for a lot of teams. If someone actually picked it up - that gives US 4.1 million more to be aggressive in getting other players or buying more contracts up in order to gain more picks (or prospects) that you simply don't get with trading goalies for the most part.

but you can think it's stupid. but I stand by what I said.
having a contract and 4.1 million free off a player that isn't going to be here past next year anyway and you more than likely wouldn't get anything more than a 2nd through 4th or a meh prospect back. makes no difference to me. it gives the leafs more flexibility to be more creative.

 

[cookie]

Based On?

Winnipeg has Pavelec, Hutch, and Hellebyuk.

Edmonton has Talbot and Nilsson.

Speaking of Pavelec... dude had his fair share of adversity in Winnipeg and then rebounded quite well (compare 2013-14 and 2014-2015). Quite frankly, when it comes to goaltenders, they seem to fall into two categories: the ones that get paid and the rest.

The whole 1A/1B goalie setup is rarely useful and, in the salary cap era, not cap-efficient. Even in successful teams that employ this setup, the playoff runs rarely have these goalies play equally often.

Guys like Al Montoya or Justin Peters are useful as backups and their play/numbers aren't vastly different from what we've been getting from Bernier and Reimer. Furthermore, these goalies know their role as backup and are mostly consistent in their performances which saves them from scrutiny. Pairing them with a legitimate starter, even if he's pricey, gets the job done. Would you rather have a 1A/1B scenario of Reimer/Bernier at 3.5M+3.5M or a Starter/backup at 6M+1M?

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the team draft high-potential goalies and place them in backup roles to established starting goalies. If the Leafs are in the search for goaltenders, I'd target whoever's available in Washington since their scouts seem to be able to find talent in this department.

 

[airbus220]

Based On?

Winnipeg has Pavelec, Hutch, and Hellebyuk.

Edmonton has Talbot and Nilsson.

Talbot is a UFA and very inconsitent. Another team would be Calgary, both Ramo and Hiller are UFA. Not a bad situation for Reimer.

 

[Le Cobra]

Keep Reimer, trade Bernier. Make more cap space for Stamkos.

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

Keep Reimer, trade Bernier. Make more cap space for Stamkos.

reimer is going to demand the same money as bernier especially if he keeps up his good play. so we actually wouldn't gain cap space even if we traded bernier and kept reimer.

 

[eddieO]

Nope. You actually have to play and maintain your stats for that to be a fact.

That's not a fact...

Okay, let me re-phrase. Reimer right now is a top-5 goalie in the league...fact.

I know it's hard to admit, but it's true. When Bernier was doing well back in 2013, there were posts awarding him the Vezina. It's all ups and downs for any goalie.

 

[eddieO]

it is not for free.

in a cap world - contract space + 4.1 million dollars is an asset.
Bernier would net what? a 2nd (or lower) pick added. Let's just be honest here. Anything Bernier would net would be less than a first, and higher than a 4th.

Even if he was playing at league standard - what specifically would the difference be in a bloated goalie market? 4.1 is a lot to swallow for a lot of teams. If someone actually picked it up - that gives US 4.1 million more to be aggressive in getting other players or buying more contracts up in order to gain more picks (or prospects) that you simply don't get with trading goalies for the most part.

but you can think it's stupid. but I stand by what I said.
having a contract and 4.1 million free off a player that isn't going to be here past next year anyway and you more than likely wouldn't get anything more than a 2nd through 4th or a meh prospect back. makes no difference to me. it gives the leafs more flexibility to be more creative.

IF a team would claim Bernier on waivers, I would absolutely do it. Saving 4.1M in a year is an asset in itself. It seems like 4 games have given everyone selective amnesia.

However, I don't think anyone is picking him up off waivers so it's a moot point.

Definitely not stupid to suggest it. In fact, the opposite.

 

[eddieO]

It's possible Reimer gets signed to a 1 year contract for next season.

Sparks could use more time anyway

This would be good, but I think he signs elsewhere.

If he maintains his play, I would offer Reimer a two year deal, but not more. If he gets better from another team, oh well.

I like Sparks not having to come up for a year or two.

 

[MikeBabchuk]

it is not for free.

in a cap world - contract space + 4.1 million dollars is an asset.
Bernier would net what? a 2nd (or lower) pick added. Let's just be honest here. Anything Bernier would net would be less than a first, and higher than a 4th.

Even if he was playing at league standard - what specifically would the difference be in a bloated goalie market? 4.1 is a lot to swallow for a lot of teams. If someone actually picked it up - that gives US 4.1 million more to be aggressive in getting other players or buying more contracts up in order to gain more picks (or prospects) that you simply don't get with trading goalies for the most part.

but you can think it's stupid. but I stand by what I said.
having a contract and 4.1 million free off a player that isn't going to be here past next year anyway and you more than likely wouldn't get anything more than a 2nd through 4th or a meh prospect back. makes no difference to me. it gives the leafs more flexibility to be more creative.

I agree with the valid points you're making here too despite the fact that I mentioned above the practicality of getting something back for a player. Significant cap space certainly is an asset in place of a player with negative value whom in order to trade, the team would likely have to take a bad contract back anyway. It's certainly not a black and white issue; management have to see what the trade market would be and whether waiving the player makes more sense than the available trades.

 

[Paradoc]

At the moment he is #1 in save percentage and #3 in GAA while playing on a mediocre team.. but Reimer isn't top 5 this year?

Tough crowd..

Okay, let me re-phrase. Reimer right now is a top-5 goalie in the league...fact.

I know it's hard to admit, but it's true. When Bernier was doing well back in 2013, there were posts awarding him the Vezina. It's all ups and downs for any goalie.

That's not a fact, but an opinion. There are goalies who's played more games while having the same sv %. If Reimer wasn't injured every day or so, and has played as many games as the top tier goalie, then he would be top 5 goalie like I mentioned above.