John Scott says 1st round picks weren't willing to change game with St. John's

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

I guess this could also go to the ex habs thread.

Bissonnette and Scott have a talk about how things have changed and some skilled players dont want to change. At the end of the clip, he makes reference to "1st rounders" with immense talent on St. John's who weren't going to "lower" themselves because they were going to be first line, pp minute type players.

Seems like he's talking about Nikita Scherbak.

Click to read more...

 

[JoelWarlord]

Yeah worked out real well for Tinordi and McCarron.

 

[Kriss E]

I guess this could also go to the ex habs thread.

Bissonnette and Scott have a talk about how things have changed and some skilled players dont want to change. At the end of the clip, he makes reference to "1st rounders" with immense talent on St. John's who weren't going to "lower" themselves because they were going to be first line, pp minute type players.

Seems like he's talking about Nikita Scherbak.

Well I don't agree about dropping the gloves and eating some punches, and fighting 7-10 times per year is so some easy feat. You want Scherbak to start fighting? Kid has never fought in his life, it has nothing to do with his game, and you want him to go versus bottom scrappers in the AHL??
That's the dumbest thing I've heard.
If they don't want to improve their overall game, that's another issue, but let's not go crazy here.

I do agree a lot of teams seem to just pick whoever they hope can make it work kinda by themselves and aren't well directed/molded. That's definitely our reality.

 

[Kimota]

Not saying ra ra let's fight but it's not bad to focus on other elements in the game. Like Carbo for instance was a scorer but in the NHL, he could not do that and he became a defensive player and playing more with an edge. He became a specialist at something else. In the case of Tinordi, he was having trouble defensively but he had good physique and was a good skater. My thinking was maybe he could be useful as a forward. Esp. in a forechecking role.

 

[montreal]

Scherbak I just can't see being that kind of player, he didn't look strong physically, he was never that good defensively, clearly he had issues with effort in his own end and he was never a physical player. So I don't see how he could have changed his game, some kids just don't want it bad enough and Scherbak at least appeared to be a more laid back guy that clearly wasn't getting the message but also was handled more poorly then any skill prospect I can recall in my 20+ years of following prospects.

Tinordi is an interesting case, I have said many times that it's just flat out bull shit that the Habs weren't able to turn him into at least a 6th or 7th D, something between what say Benn was for us to say what Pateryn has been. Didn't even need to be that good as there's no way imo that he couldn't have at least been what Folin was for us. Now i've had it said to me that he was getting bad advice perhaps from his dad who didn't seem pleased with how he was handled but I really hated to see him fighting as he was not very good at it. His game should have been about blocking shots, clearing the net, excel on the PK, safe stay at home type.

Now Tinordi likely wasn't there when Scott was, he played 6 games to Scott's 27 that year but Tinordi I believe played early in the year. The only other 1st rounder on that team was McCarron. That was McCarron's rookie year so those are very interesting comments when you look back at the timeline for his rookie year. To those like myself that remember watching the games, McCarron started out the season on fire and was putting up points left and right. He was playing in the top 6 and on the PP if memory serves. He got called up at different times, played 20 games in the NHL and didn't look ready, when he was sent back to the IceCaps he struggled badly, so much so that in the remaining say 30ish games he had less points then he had in his first month of the season.

So he could very well be talking more about McCarron then Scherbak or at least it makes a lot more sense for McCarron to play that kind of game then Scherbak who I don't think could even if he gave it his all.

 

[VernonForrest]

Well I don't agree about dropping the gloves and eating some punches, and fighting 7-10 times per year is so some easy feat. You want Scherbak to start fighting? Kid has never fought in his life, it has nothing to do with his game, and you want him to go versus bottom scrappers in the AHL??
That's the dumbest thing I've heard.
If they don't want to improve their overall game, that's another issue, but let's not go crazy here.

I do agree a lot of teams seem to just pick whoever they hope can make it work kinda by themselves and aren't well directed/molded. That's definitely our reality.

I think you’re taking it a bit out of context. They didn’t mean everyone should start fighting but why couldn’t Nikita throw a few hits, kill some penalties, go to the net hard etc.. if he would have added some hard work and a bit more grinding to his game he could have been useful on the third line... then if he worked hard and was successful there he could move to the second etc..

 

[Runner77]

Not saying ra ra let's fight but it's not bad to focus on other elements in the game. Like Carbo for instance was a scorer but in the NHL, he could not do that and he became a defensive player and playing more with an edge. He became a specialist at something else. In the case of Tinordi, he was having trouble defensively but he had good physique and was a good skater. My thinking was maybe he could be useful as a forward. Esp. in a forechecking role.

Could Carbonneau really not do it? The few times I've heard him talk about his scoring, he mentioned that the Habs wanted him to focus on his defensive game more and so he adapted his game to what they asked him to do.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Now Tinordi likely wasn't there when Scott was, he played 6 games to Scott's 27 that year but Tinordi I believe played early in the year.

Tinordi wasn't there when Scott was because Tinordi was traded to Arizona for Scott and Bartley.

 

[26Mats]

Scherbak I just can't see being that kind of player, he didn't look strong physically, he was never that good defensively, clearly he had issues with effort in his own end and he was never a physical player. So I don't see how he could have changed his game, some kids just don't want it bad enough and Scherbak at least appeared to be a more laid back guy that clearly wasn't getting the message but also was handled more poorly then any skill prospect I can recall in my 20+ years of following prospects.

Tinordi is an interesting case, I have said many times that it's just flat out bull shit that the Habs weren't able to turn him into at least a 6th or 7th D, something between what say Benn was for us to say what Pateryn has been. Didn't even need to be that good as there's no way imo that he couldn't have at least been what Folin was for us. Now i've had it said to me that he was getting bad advice perhaps from his dad who didn't seem pleased with how he was handled but I really hated to see him fighting as he was not very good at it. His game should have been about blocking shots, clearing the net, excel on the PK, safe stay at home type.

Now Tinordi likely wasn't there when Scott was, he played 6 games to Scott's 27 that year but Tinordi I believe played early in the year. The only other 1st rounder on that team was McCarron. That was McCarron's rookie year so those are very interesting comments when you look back at the timeline for his rookie year. To those like myself that remember watching the games, McCarron started out the season on fire and was putting up points left and right. He was playing in the top 6 and on the PP if memory serves. He got called up at different times, played 20 games in the NHL and didn't look ready, when he was sent back to the IceCaps he struggled badly, so much so that in the remaining say 30ish games he had less points then he had in his first month of the season.

So he could very well be talking more about McCarron then Scherbak or at least it makes a lot more sense for McCarron to play that kind of game then Scherbak who I don't think could even if he gave it his all.

The thing is, in today's game you have to be a 200 foot player, no matter how good you are offensively.

Scherbak still didn't understand that, ev err n kast year in the KHL. in an interview last year he said "I don't know,why the canadiens kept sending m.j e down to the AHL. I already proved I was point per game player there "

Yeah but you're 200 foot game is horrendous Scherbie. Wake up!

 

[BLONG7]

Could Carbonneau really not do it? The few times I've heard him talk about his scoring, he mentioned that the Habs wanted him to focus on his defensive game more and so he adapted his game to what they asked him to do.

He was so dominating in the AHL as a player, but sure did realize this is the way it was, and he did it for the team. Hall of fame career sure made it look like he made the right decision. Total team player.
That being said, I met him once, and boy he seemed like a real arrogant POS.....oh well.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Well I don't agree about dropping the gloves and eating some punches, and fighting 7-10 times per year is so some easy feat. You want Scherbak to start fighting? Kid has never fought in his life, it has nothing to do with his game, and you want him to go versus bottom scrappers in the AHL??
That's the dumbest thing I've heard.
If they don't want to improve their overall game, that's another issue, but let's not go crazy here.

I do agree a lot of teams seem to just pick whoever they hope can make it work kinda by themselves and aren't well directed/molded. That's definitely our reality.

That's for some players.

Scherbak needed to be willing to dive in front if pucks and throw some hits to evolve his game and he didn't.

A lot of players don't understand that throwing a body check can add another element to your game. Scherbak at 6'2, around 200lbs could easily throw some solid hits rattle players and create more space.

Galchenyuk, who's at the same size should do that.

Benoit Pouliot added that to his game, it (along with scoring and other things) got him his contract with Edmonton where he stopped being the player he molded himself into and got him out of the league.

Brian Boyle changed his game and focused solely on the defensive side of things and used his size to be a menace at times.

Basically, if your style of play isn't working, you need to adapt and change, move to a different team and hope it works there, or accept you'll be out of the league.

 

[WeThreeKings]

You should draft the player for the game they play and figure out how to use their talents in your system.

Theres one thing to work on a players flaws and help them do the things they need to do to not be a liability but I've seen too much evidence of the Habs development over the last two decades that they take players and try to make them into something they are not.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Yeah worked out real well for Tinordi and McCarron.

McCarron is hanging around partially because of it. Being 6'6, 230lbs, or whatever he is with minimal skill and being soft gets you sent to the ECHL

Tinordi was ruined by the habs. He's making a strong case to be in the NHL with Nashville.

Scherbak I just can't see being that kind of player, he didn't look strong physically, he was never that good defensively, clearly he had issues with effort in his own end and he was never a physical player. So I don't see how he could have changed his game, some kids just don't want it bad enough and Scherbak at least appeared to be a more laid back guy that clearly wasn't getting the message but also was handled more poorly then any skill prospect I can recall in my 20+ years of following prospects.

Tinordi is an interesting case, I have said many times that it's just flat out bull shit that the Habs weren't able to turn him into at least a 6th or 7th D, something between what say Benn was for us to say what Pateryn has been. Didn't even need to be that good as there's no way imo that he couldn't have at least been what Folin was for us. Now i've had it said to me that he was getting bad advice perhaps from his dad who didn't seem pleased with how he was handled but I really hated to see him fighting as he was not very good at it. His game should have been about blocking shots, clearing the net, excel on the PK, safe stay at home type.

Now Tinordi likely wasn't there when Scott was, he played 6 games to Scott's 27 that year but Tinordi I believe played early in the year. The only other 1st rounder on that team was McCarron. That was McCarron's rookie year so those are very interesting comments when you look back at the timeline for his rookie year. To those like myself that remember watching the games, McCarron started out the season on fire and was putting up points left and right. He was playing in the top 6 and on the PP if memory serves. He got called up at different times, played 20 games in the NHL and didn't look ready, when he was sent back to the IceCaps he struggled badly, so much so that in the remaining say 30ish games he had less points then he had in his first month of the season.

So he could very well be talking more about McCarron then Scherbak or at least it makes a lot more sense for McCarron to play that kind of game then Scherbak who I don't think could even if he gave it his all.

Well, he referred to the person having tremendous skill, which Scherbak had. Likely told him he needs to block more shots, be better defensively and throw a hit.

Now, your first part of your post. I believe you're right.

My question is, Scherbak kind of showed by his 2nd AHL season that he was good, but not quite good enough for the NHL. He didn't look that strong, or that willing to engage physically, so I'm wondering why they didn't trade him at that time and recoup a 2nd, a 3rd, or maybe a different prospect in a similar fashion and see how that went.

More and more view points come out and with the fans agreeing, it just shows this team is doing everything backwards.

It makes sense with Bergevin always trading back to acquire more picks with the hope one of those picks becomes something.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

Could Carbonneau really not do it? The few times I've heard him talk about his scoring, he mentioned that the Habs wanted him to focus on his defensive game more and so he adapted his game to what they asked him to do.

Bingo, he probably could have scored, though he was asked something else entirely different from Habs brass at the time. And since his hockey IQ was off the charts, he could do it.

What Scott/Bissonnette mention, I don't think is far fetched, some of those kids are entitled brats and managed to go on by skill alone, in some cases, so if all of a sudden they're challenged to do something different, of couse some may wonder what the hell's happening. (on a side note, I think it's just a microcosm of the reality outside of hockey)

Now, I also think that if those kids are well surrounded, they have higher chances of 'getting it' and start working on what they need.

But that's another story...

 

[Zam Boni]

Scherbak still didn't understand that, ev err n kast year in the KHL. in an interview last year he said "I don't know,why the canadiens kept sending m.j e down to the AHL. I already proved I was point per game player there "

Yeah but you're 200 foot game is horrendous Scherbie. Wake up!

If what Scherbak says is true, that is just terrible.
It should be super clear to him what he needs to work at in order to get called up again.
If he doesn't understand what he needs to improve or do differently, how is he able to work at it?

Unfortunately, I am not really surprised. Our talent development seems to be just terrible...

 

[Kriss E]

I think you’re taking it a bit out of context. They didn’t mean everyone should start fighting but why couldn’t Nikita throw a few hits, kill some penalties, go to the net hard etc.. if he would have added some hard work and a bit more grinding to his game he could have been useful on the third line... then if he worked hard and was successful there he could move to the second etc..

Well I get it, but it's not as simple as they make it sound either. I don't think Scherbak was going to be a 3rd line NHLer regardless of what he did.
Take Hudon for example, he definitely seems like someone who'll do anything to make it to the NHL. In the AHL he plays well on top lines, in the NHL they put him on bottom lines, he hustles as much as he can but will never make it imo.

I'm not disagreeing with those guys. They obviously know way more what goes on, and no doubt in my mind there are guys who just pout and refuse to play lower roles because they're top players in juniors.
Just saying, Bissonette suggesting to just drop the gloves around 7-8 times...every time you do it you chance getting your face bashed in, especially if you never fought before.

 

[Kriss E]

That's for some players.

Scherbak needed to be willing to dive in front if pucks and throw some hits to evolve his game and he didn't.

A lot of players don't understand that throwing a body check can add another element to your game. Scherbak at 6'2, around 200lbs could easily throw some solid hits rattle players and create more space.

Galchenyuk, who's at the same size should do that.

Benoit Pouliot added that to his game, it (along with scoring and other things) got him his contract with Edmonton where he stopped being the player he molded himself into and got him out of the league.

Brian Boyle changed his game and focused solely on the defensive side of things and used his size to be a menace at times.

Basically, if your style of play isn't working, you need to adapt and change, move to a different team and hope it works there, or accept you'll be out of the league.

It's not just about throwing more hits or blocking shots. You need to enjoy doing it, and more importantly, you need to be very good at it too. If you're a skilled player who just can't outdo the other skilled guys, well, there are a lot of players who can kill penalties and play physical too, and for them it's way more natural.

 

[Le Tricolore]

John Scott was one of the dirtiest players in the NHL and was voted into the all star game since people thought he was the worst player in NHL and wanted to make a joke out of the voting process.

I couldn't care less about anything he has to say.

 

[Kriss E]

The thing is, in today's game you have to be a 200 foot player, no matter how good you are offensively.

Scherbak still didn't understand that, ev err n kast year in the KHL. in an interview last year he said "I don't know,why the canadiens kept sending m.j e down to the AHL. I already proved I was point per game player there "

Yeah but you're 200 foot game is horrendous Scherbie. Wake up!

The biggest concern is that he says he didn't know why he was sent down. Not that it's surprising, people have doubted how this team develops and communicates with their prospect/players for a long time.
Too many of them seem lost, confused, on a different path than management, and they often say they don't understand or know why.

Scherbak had a steady progression in the AHL going from .48ppg pace to .62 to 1.15, spread over three years. You really couldn't ask for better in terms of production.
That said, I never really liked him, there are better guys than him.

 

[JuicyHam]

The argument about "manning up" and "being tougher" shouldn't exist in the modern hockey world when it comes to fighting. Especially when talking about AHL goons. This isn't the 70s where it may have been the tougher man winning. These are literally trained fighters. A lot of their offseason training is just boxing and strength training. You're literally stepping up just to get clobbered. These "1st round picks" did not make it because they weren't "willing to do the dirty work" they didn't make it because they weren't willing to put in the work period. Or maybe they just didn't have it in the first place.

I understand the point about taking on extra roles like penalty killing and putting in a better shift defensively but being "tougher" just isn't in it for some players

 

[Mrb1p]

I guess this could also go to the ex habs thread.

Bissonnette and Scott have a talk about how things have changed and some skilled players dont want to change. At the end of the clip, he makes reference to "1st rounders" with immense talent on St. John's who weren't going to "lower" themselves because they were going to be first line, pp minute type players.

Seems like he's talking about Nikita Scherbak.

Nikita Scherbak was rigth then.

Grinders are grinders, skill guys are skill guys and the worst skill guys become grinders because grinding is easy.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

It's not just about throwing more hits or blocking shots. You need to enjoy doing it, and more importantly, you need to be very good at it too. If you're a skilled player who just can't outdo the other skilled guys, well, there are a lot of players who can kill penalties and play physical too, and for them it's way more natural.

True. However, if players want to make it, even for a few years and get some nice pay cheques, then they need to adapt.

Nikita Scherbak was rigth then.

Grinders are grinders, skill guys are skill guys and the worst skill guys become grinders because grinding is easy.

Grinding is not easy by any standards. You have to mentally prepare yourself you block shots and take that extra stride, or two and finish the check, learn how to read plays defensively and potentially be ready to drop the gloves to defend a teammate, or yourself if one of your hits gets the other team riled up.

Maybe Scherbak was right in that he knew he didn't have any qualities to be a bottom 6 player, but if you can find those types of players with above average skill, but check all the boxes of a grinder, you know your team can be deep.

 

[CheldishGamibno]

Tinordi was ruined by the habs. He's making a strong case to be in the NHL with Nashville.

Well, we can argue that many prospects were ruined by the Habs organisation but should we include Tinordi?
It took him another 4 years full time in the AHL before returning to the NHL. Arizona and Pittsburgh were not patient with him either. It happens for some players to be late bloomers, it's very rare that a player is developped 10yrs in the AHL with the same team before playing in the NHL.

 

[Kriss E]

True. However, if players want to make it, even for a few years and get some nice pay cheques, then they need to adapt.

Sure, but versatility is an acquired skill. It's not so simple.

 

[Kriss E]

Well, we can argue that many prospects were ruined by the Habs organisation but should we include Tinordi?
It took him another 4 years full time in the AHL before returning to the NHL. Arizona and Pittsburgh were not patient with him either. It happens for some players to be late bloomers, it's very rare that a player is developped 10yrs in the AHL with the same team before playing in the NHL.

Isn't that the point of being ruined?? If he could just walk it off and get back on track in 3 months, then it's not being ruined now is it?

Ruining is a significant change of direction, more often than not, there is no recovering from this. You are on a very very very tight timeline to become a NHLer, every year teams have new bodies ready to get a chance over you. It's very difficult to recover from mismanagement.