The Sun: John-Michael Liles in limbo with Maple Leafs?

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
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Your avoidance of my question speaks volumes.

You obviously have a hard time standing by your opinion that no GM can ever be held accountable for the on-ice results.

Instead you prefer character assassinations (as if Liles, Daigle, Bryzgalov, Raycroft, Gomez, Redden, Yashin, Sturm, or any other player that destroys your ridiculous idea, quit trying and competing on the ice).

I'm going to keep deconstructing this until you acknowledge that GM's are responsible for the players they put on the roster.

And I'll keep laughing until Nonis puts on a set of pads, and QB's a powerplay.

Character assassination? Irony at its finest.

I don't have a hard time standing by my opinion, as I've continued to pose the same premise, post after post. You have a hard time understanding that there is a personal responsibility issue that is over-arching in life.

If you don't do your job properly at work, and you have a history of ability, is it your boss' fault for hiring you? Or is it your fault for not living up to your ability and responsibilities?
 

Kyle Doobas*

Guest
I'm sorry i can't spin an aging D that we just sign to a long extension sitting in the pressbox as a positive
There are plenty of positive aspects to the situation that certain people refuse to acknowledge in favour of pushing their tired agenda.
 

Bomber0104

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Apr 8, 2007
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Burlington
And I'll keep laughing until Nonis puts on a set of pads, and QB's a powerplay.

He is responsible for the team he assembles.

I don't have a hard time standing by my opinion, as I've continued to pose the same premise, post after post. You have a hard time understanding that there is a personal responsibility issue that is over-arching in life.

If you don't do your job properly at work, and you have a history of ability, is it your boss' fault for hiring you? Or is it your fault for not living up to your ability and responsibilities?

It's the boss's fault for the hire and to a lesser degree the individual's for accepting the job that was OFFERED to them.

So once again,

Signing Komisarek is not Burke's fault.
Signing Finger was not Fletcher's fault.
Trading for Raycroft was not JFJ's fault.
Trading for Kessel was not Burke's fault.
Trading Tlusty for Paradis was not Burke's fault.
Trading Thornton for Marco Sturm was not Boston's fault.
Trading Yashin for Spezza was not the Islanders' fault
Drafting Daigle was not Ottawa's fault.
Drafting Zherdev was not Columbus' fault.

And alternatively,

Trading for Gardiner and Lupul should not be credited to Burke.
Trading for Phaneuf should not be credited to Burke.
Trading for Luongo should not be credited to Nonis.
Drafting Claude Giroux should not be credited to Philadelphia
Signing Zdeno Chara should not be credited to Boston.
Drafting Lucic should not be credited to Boston.
Signing Hossa should not be credited to Chicago.

Because this is all just guess work for the GM and they have no idea how good or bad these players are. They just throw darts with a blindfold on. No GM should ever be fired because they are never to blame for how well the team does.

Delusion, at its finest.

No idea what kind of job you have ever had where there is no accountability for results but in pro sports it is ALL about results, and when your GM puts your team in ridiculously bad situations because of his own incompetence, there are consequences.

There's actually no way you believe this...you are just putting everyone on.
 

hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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There are plenty of positive aspects to the situation that certain people refuse to acknowledge in favour of pushing their tired agenda.

JML wasn't pushed out of his spot by high ceiling youngsters . He lost his spot to career AHL'ers , if that's a postive i'd love to know what you think a negative is .
 

Kyle Doobas*

Guest
Are you implying that Burke should have foreseen that Liles would be concussed and then struggle to find his game upon his return?

JML wasn't pushed out of his spot by high ceiling youngsters . He lost his spot to career AHL'ers , if that's a postive i'd love to know what you think a negative is.
I didn't say it was a positive that Liles lost his spot to players he should probably be playing better than. I said there are other aspects to the situation which you refuse to acknowledge, and you're really hammering my point home now.
 
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number72

Registered User
Oct 9, 2011
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3
3.8M for liles to pick up pucks after practice and eat popcorn in the press box. lol
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,046
2,185
He is responsible for the team he assembles.



It's the boss's fault for the hire and to a lesser degree the individual's for accepting the job that was OFFERED to them.

So once again,

Signing Komisarek is not Burke's fault.
Signing Finger was not Fletcher's fault.
Trading for Raycroft was not JFJ's fault.
Trading for Kessel was not Burke's fault.
Trading Tlusty for Paradis was not Burke's fault.
Trading Thornton for Marco Sturm was not Boston's fault.
Trading Yashin for Spezza was not the Islanders' fault
Drafting Daigle was not Ottawa's fault.
Drafting Zherdev was not Columbus' fault.

And alternatively,

Trading for Gardiner and Lupul should not be credited to Burke.
Trading for Phaneuf should not be credited to Burke.
Trading for Luongo should not be credited to Nonis.
Drafting Claude Giroux should not be credited to Philadelphia
Signing Zdeno Chara should not be credited to Boston.
Drafting Lucic should not be credited to Boston.
Signing Hossa should not be credited to Chicago.

Because this is all just guess work for the GM and they have no idea how good or bad these players are. They just throw darts with a blindfold on. No GM should ever be fired because they are never to blame for how well the team does.

Delusion, at its finest.


What sort of

There is about 1 line in that whole host of crap, that has any relevance, and it's ridiculous in and of itself. It's your bosses fault that you dick around at work.... right. The player has the ability to make his boss look like a genius, or an idiot. The bottom line is, it's on the player. His past ability, and production, dictated his market value, and thus the contract his agent negotiated. That is the part that the GM has involvement in. The other part; whether or not the player plays to that past precident, is on the player himself. It's not up to the GM to babysit a player, or to take shifts for a player, make on-ice decisions for a player, etc.

Where do GM's and bosses get their crystal ball to know that you're going to live up to your responsibilities as an employee, because I could use one.

Alright Tipper, we get it.
 
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ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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If Liles can't get in the lineup over AHL scrubs what does that say for Gardiner?
 

ForSpareParts*

Guest
Same cast of characters turn the thread into a Burke bash, and come in crying about "look at that cap hit! Contract is terrible!".

Why must EVERY discussion be turned into a pissing match? Can we just assume that the resident economists and Burke haters feel this way, and they NOT ruin a discussion?

I don't disagree with you about the ****ing match.

It's not that Liles is horrible. It just seems like he's out of place with this new system. Sort of like Beauchemin was back in the day. A top 4 player on the wrong type of team.

As much as I admire JML's skill he has always been soft as butter. Most opposing forwards that go in to the corner come up with the puck against him. Jake Gardiner last year was not far off.

I didn't like JML's extension, and I didn't like how we looked on the left side.

Gunn Dion
Liles Franson
Gardiner Komi
Holzer

Was most people's projected pairings.

The left side was so problematic and soft.

Maybe it'll be good to have JML later if there's an injury, but we need more Holzer, Fraser, Kostka to win.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,154
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Burlington
There is about 1 line in that whole host of crap, that has any relevance, and it's ridiculous in and of itself. It's your bosses fault that you dick around at work.... right. The player has the ability to make his boss look like a genius, or an idiot. The bottom line is, it's on the player. His past ability, and production, dictated his market value, and thus the contract his agent negotiated. That is the part that the GM has involvement in. The other part; whether or not the player plays to that past precident, is on the player himself. It's not up to the GM to babysit a player, or to take shifts for a player, make on-ice decisions for a player, etc.

Alright Tipper, we get it.

Again, who is this "we" you think you are referring to? Literally no one thinks like this. A GM is responsible for the results of his decisions. You can make the most irrelevant comparisons to other sectors all you want, proves nothing.

Ask 100 Leafs fans who is responsible for the outcome of the Raycroft/Rask trade and 99 of them will say it's JFJ's fault we are watching Rask perform excellently with the Bruins. The only person that would blame Raycroft for getting traded to Toronto would be you! The only person that would blame Raycroft for JFJ trading away Rask would be you!

Ask 100 Bruins fans who is responsible for the Thornton trade and 100 percent of them would blame the Boston GM. Not Marco Sturm. Not Wayne Primeau. Just the Boston GM.

The list is endless.

But you live in an utter fantasy world where GM's aren't accountable for their decision making.
 
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ErnieLeafs

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Apr 7, 2009
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Again, who is this "we" you think you are referring to? Literally no one thinks like this. A GM is responsible for the results of his decisions. You can make the most irrelevant comparisons to other sectors all you want, proves nothing.

Ask 100 Leafs fans who is responsible for the outcome of the Raycroft/Rask trade and 99 of them will say it's JFJ's fault we are watching Rask perform excellently with the Bruins. The only person that would blame Raycroft for getting traded to Toronto would be you!

Ask 100 Bruins fans who is responsible for the Thornton trade and 100 percent of them would blame the Boston GM. Not Marco Sturm. Not Wayne Primeau. Just the Boston GM.

The list is endless.

But you live in an utter fantasy world where GM's aren't accountable for their decision making.

The GM has nothing to go on but past production.
Rask hadn't even sniffed the NHL level when he was traded. Raycroft was coming off a Calder trophy campaign. So that trade was a results based trade.

Raycroft showed the ability to play very well at the NHL level, and Rask was a question mark at the NHL level. JFJ made a deal based on production. The blade falls on him if the player doesn't perform, but the deal was made based on how he had performed. Is JFJ Nostradamous? Does he have a crystal ball that tells him the player will always play to that level? I don't think so. The player on the ice plays the game, and if he doesn't play up to his past performance, is JFJ on the ice dictating that? No. Raycroft is.

I used other sectors to show the argument you were using, and they're just as ridiculous as the one you're presenting. I apologize if that's hard to swallow, but that's what you're saying.

I guess everyone should blame everyone else for their downfalls, and shortcomings. Damn the Gods for their plights, blame your employer for your inability to perform your duties, blame whoever, but not yourself.

Kessel is now a better two-way player because he dedicated himself to improving his game. Kadri is breaking out because he chose to put in the time and effort to work on his shortcomings, JML is in the pressbox because he has struggled to adjust to a new system, that doesn't exactly fit the way he has previously played the game, not because his cap hit is 3+ million dollars.
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
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If Liles can't get in the lineup over AHL scrubs what does that say for Gardiner?

So now you're slagging a kid coming off a concussion to protect the legacy of Burke .

Only in Tor would the reputation of a failed former GM be more important than the current players .
 

birddog*

Guest
Trade Liles and Kosta. Call up Gardiner.

Install autoboot script on this board for anyone suggesting to trade Gardiner. Or mods -- you can do it manually.
 

ForSpareParts*

Guest
This is just history repeating itself: Kostka or Liles.

People hated Hal Gill as a Leaf. It was hilarious seeing him win a cup and find success in every team he plays for.
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
21,660
6,248
This is just history repeating itself.

People hated Hal Gill as a Leaf. It was hilarious seeing him win a cup and find success in every team he plays for.

Who hated Gill and i don't remember him losing his spot to mutiple AHLer's .
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,154
7,084
Burlington
The GM has nothing to go on but past production.

Incorrect. The GM has more to go on than that. Age, size, declining play and production, injury history, and other variables factor into personnel decisions.

Liles suffered a concussion at age 31.

Rask hadn't even sniffed the NHL level when he was traded. Raycroft was coming off a Calder trophy campaign. So that trade was a results based trade.

Rask was a bonafide 1st round caliber prospect playing exceptional hockey in Europe.

JFJ decided to trade him for a one-hit wonder who was on the decline and replaced with two career backups.

But under your paradigm, not only is it Raycroft's fault he got traded and planted in a starting role in Toronto, apparently it is also his fault Rask went the other way.

Can't tell which is more ridiculous.

Raycroft showed the ability to play very well at the NHL level, and Rask was a question mark at the NHL level. JFJ made a deal based on production. The blade falls on him if the player doesn't perform, but the deal was made based on how he had performed.

And he lost his job to career backup goalies in Boston and was on the decline ever since his Calder Cup win...but let's ignore that.

Is JFJ Nostradamous? Does he have a crystal ball that tells him the player will always play to that level? I don't think so.

He is a professional hockey executive paid a handsome salary and with all the resources, such as a pro scouting staff, at his disposal to make correct decisions involving players and prospects.

The Rask/Raycroft trade blew up in his face. Among many other trades and signings.

The player on the ice plays the game, and if he doesn't play up to his past performance, is JFJ on the ice dictating that? No. Raycroft is.

The GM has unlimited resources to watch the player play the game, and in the case of Raycroft, he lost his job to two career backup goaltenders and was on a statistical decline ever since his Calder winning season.

I used other sectors to show the argument you were using, and they're just as ridiculous as the one you're presenting. I apologize if that's hard to swallow, but that's what you're saying.

No it's not. You are using a strawman argument that neither applies to what my argument suggests nor what actually happens in reality in sports.

A GM is paid to make correct player personnel decisions because they are experts in their field and know the landscape of the NHL and hockey.

What your argument suggests is that these men are idiots who are throwing darts at a dartboard with a blindfold on.

I have no idea why you have such a low opinion of these men and their abilities as hockey executives.

I guess everyone should blame everyone else for their downfalls, and shortcomings. Damn the Gods for their plights, blame your employer for your inability to perform your duties, blame whoever, but not yourself.

We can blame MLSE for hiring Burke and giving him all the power to make the horrible decisions on the ice. But most of us already knew that and that isn't the argument here. The argument is about how bad of a decision it was to re-sign Liles while he was concussed for $17 million. You seem to want to assassinate Liles' integrity and character by suggesting he isn't trying to the best of his ability.

Why? I haven't the foggiest idea why you would bash him as a person.

I find it's more sane to appoint blame to the person who acquired the players in question rather than attack the character and integrity of the hockey player at every turn. Because under your paradigm, no GM is responsible for anything he does. It's some sort of underlying character flaw that caused the player to decline and not live up to the contract the GM signed off on.
 

ForSpareParts*

Guest
Who hated Gill and i don't remember him losing his spot to mutiple AHLer's .

Many fans thought he was slow/useless.


Why do you seem so surprised or against Fraser, Kostka, and Holzer?


We have developed players now and no one wants them.

Holzer should be no surprise to people.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,046
2,185
Incorrect. The GM has more to go on than that. Age, size, declining play and production, injury history, and other variables factor into personnel decisions.

Liles suffered a concussion at age 31.



Rask was a bonafide 1st round caliber prospect playing exceptional hockey in Europe.

JFJ decided to trade him for a one-hit wonder who was on the decline and replaced with two career backups.

But under your paradigm, not only is it Raycroft's fault he got traded and planted in a starting role in Toronto, apparently it is also his fault Rask went the other way.

Can't tell which is more ridiculous.



And he lost his job to career backup goalies in Boston and was on the decline ever since his Calder Cup win...but let's ignore that.



He is a professional hockey executive paid a handsome salary and with all the resources, such as a pro scouting staff, at his disposal to make correct decisions involving players and prospects.

The Rask/Raycroft trade blew up in his face. Among many other trades and signings.



The GM has unlimited resources to watch the player play the game, and in the case of Raycroft, he lost his job to two career backup goaltenders and was on a statistical decline ever since his Calder winning season.



No it's not. You are using a strawman argument that neither applies to what my argument suggests nor what actually happens in reality in sports.

A GM is paid to make correct player personnel decisions because they are experts in their field and know the landscape of the NHL and hockey.

What your argument suggests is that these men are idiots who are throwing darts at a dartboard with a blindfold on.

I have no idea why you have such a low opinion of these men and their abilities as hockey executives.



We can blame MLSE for hiring Burke and giving him all the power to make the horrible decisions on the ice. But most of us already knew that and that isn't the argument here. The argument is about how bad of a decision it was to re-sign Liles while he was concussed for $17 million. You seem to want to assassinate Liles' integrity and character by suggesting he isn't trying to the best of his ability.

Why? I haven't the foggiest idea why you would bash him as a person.

I find it's more sane to appoint blame to the person who acquired the players in question rather than attack the character and integrity of the hockey player at every turn. Because under your paradigm, no GM is responsible for anything he does. It's some sort of underlying character flaw that caused the player to decline and not live up to the contract the GM signed off on.

I didn't say the bolded at all. I said the Player is responsible for his own play, not the executive that signed him based on the play that set the precident. You keep inferring things that I'm not saying, because it then gives you something to argue about. You're putting words in people's mouth, and if that's what you want to do, then by all means, fire away.

Character assasination would be if I said he's lazy, if I said that he parties and doesn't pay attention to his game. What I DID say, was that he is having trouble adjusting to a style of play that is completely different from what he's played his entire career. So go ahead and harp on that, because .... well..... good luck.

I'm not saying these men are idiots at all.... there you go again. You can pretend I'm saying that all you want, if it makes you feel better. I'm saying that they sign players based on a precident, not that they're stupid, and don't know anything. They know what is real, and tangible.

If I'm not mistaken, you're the one calling executive idiots, and in fact, that's what touched off this whole thing.

It's nice to meet you, pot.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,154
7,084
Burlington
If I'm not mistaken, you're the one calling executive idiots, and in fact, that's what touched off this whole thing.

It's nice to meet you, pot.

No I am calling certain executives idiots who make idiotic decisions (Burke)...such as signing a concussed 31 year old offensive defenceman to a $17 million contract.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,046
2,185
No I am calling certain executives idiots who make idiotic decisions (Burke)...such as signing a concussed 31 year old offensive defenceman to a $17 million contract.

Okay, that's fine.

Please tell me what he would've gotten in an open market situation, and tell me how that would differ from what he's being paid now. I have a hard time believing that you would be able to make a case against his paycheque, based on the precident he had set with his prior history of production. He's a top 4 PMD in the prime of his career.
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
21,660
6,248
Many fans thought he was slow/useless.


Why do you seem so surprised or against Fraser, Kostka, and Holzer?


We have developed players now and no one wants them.

Holzer should be no surprise to people.

Gill was always slow but he undestood his shortcomings and played within himself . The guy was always a decent defensive D and he showed that before he came to Tor and after he left . You're always going to find fans that don't like players especially when the teams losing but he really wasn't thought badly of by the majority of the fans . Also i'll repeat Gill also didn't lose his spot to career AHL'ers like JML has .

We didn't develop Fraser and Kostka and we only gave them a chance because our D was alot worse than people believed . Holzer hasn't done much of anything to be proud of and i'm surprised he hasn't been sent down .
 

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