The Sun: John-Michael Liles in limbo with Maple Leafs?

[Kyle Doobas*]

No I am calling certain executives idiots who make idiotic decisions (Burke)...such as signing a concussed 31 year old offensive defenceman to a $17 million contract.

No one in this thread is even disputing that. It has more to do with the faulty logic behind posts like:

"Liles isn't going anywhere unless the Leafs eat salary. He's played so bad, we have career AHL players taking his job as well as Komisarek's."

Holzer has been developing in the AHL and was expected by most to crack the roster this season. Fraser has played in the NHL before and has done exceedingly well in his role for the Leafs so far this season. It's not like these are bad hockey players that were handed a spot by default because Liles was so horrendous. There are also other factors to take into account - chemistry, team style, etc. It's not as simple as, "Oh well he lost his roster spot to guys who have previously played in the AHL, therefore he's a bad defenseman that no team could possibly have any interest in."

 

[Bomber0104]

Okay, that's fine.

Please tell me what he would've gotten in an open market situation, and tell me how that would differ from what he's being paid now. I have a hard time believing that you would be able to make a case against his paycheque, based on the precident he had set with his prior history of production. He's a top 4 PMD in the prime of his career.

He would have gotten around the same on the open market anyway but that doesn't mean he should get that on the open market. That team is going to pay for it. That team turned out to be us.

What Toronto had at the time of him signing and what we are seeing not even a full season later is an excess of defencemen which is a double slap in the face for not only the mistake of re-upping Liles but doing so when we had many more less expensive and probably better options to ice.

One of the worst mistakes I've been seeing GMs make over the past while is making the mistake of thinking they absolutely have to re-up their impending UFA's.

 

[Mowerman]

Bad personnel decision. Pretty clear to see the Leafs d are having issues effectively moving the puck & managing the puck at times, yet we have our two best PMD sitting for no good reason (Liles & Gardiner). Liles is a good player, better than most on the Leafs. Has been playing better as well.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

No one in this thread is even disputing that. It has more to do with the faulty logic behind posts like:

"Liles isn't going anywhere unless the Leafs eat salary. He's played so bad, we have career AHL players taking his job as well as Komisarek's."

Holzer has been developing in the AHL and was expected by most to crack the roster this season. Fraser has played in the NHL before and has done exceedingly well in his role for the Leafs so far this season. It's not like these are bad hockey players that were handed a spot by default because Liles was so horrendous. There are also other factors to take into account - chemistry, team style, etc. It's not as simple as, "Oh well he lost his roster spot to guys who have previously played in the AHL, therefore he's a bad defenseman that no team could possibly have any interest in."

You're also right, but to be fair, I was going back and forth with Bomber on his idea that there is no personal responsibility attached to anyone.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

He would have gotten around the same on the open market anyway but that doesn't mean he should get that on the open market. That team is going to pay for it. That team turned out to be us.

What Toronto had at the time of him signing and what we are seeing not even a full season later is an excess of defencemen which is a double slap in the face for not only the mistake of re-upping Liles but doing so when we had many more less expensive and probably better options to ice.

One of the worst mistakes I've been seeing GMs make over the past while is making the mistake of thinking they absolutely have to re-up their impending UFA's.

well, there you go.

I'm glad we've settled down, and put the daggers away. I agree, in a sense that signing a guy to that long of an extension, while he was at home with a concussion, was a bad idea. In this case, there is the problem of unpredictability, because you never know how people will bounce back from head injuries. I dealt with concussions when I played sports, and it's tough. Inconsistancy is another problem when recovering from head injuries. You just don't know how you'll feel on a day to day basis, depending on the severity. In hindsight, it wasn't smart to dole out that kind of deal.

In the case of this season, however, I believe it is more a matter of Liles not adjusting to a completely overhauled system. He fit well in Ronnie's system, because it relied on fleet-footed PMD's starting the rush. Under Carlyle's system, there is much more responsibility on the defensive side of the game, and Liles doesn't excel in a physical, defensive system. We're getting what we need out of Fraser/Holzer/Kostka in this respect, because all are more defensively responsible and physical than JML.

 

[Al14]

JML was concussed over a year ago .

And Frank if i were you i'd quit before you make a total fool out of yourself .

Are we not all already fools? Look at the team we cheer for and give our hard earned money to? lol

 

[hobarth]

I don't think RC's system has put shackles on d-men like Liles on the contrary he wants all players to play a 200' game, that includes d-men joining the rush and participating in the offensive zone. Liles and Phanny are the only d-men that have the ability to do so on the roster now, I'm deliberately excluding Franson, so I think the problem rests with Liles.

Liles should be thriving with RC's system because it calls for a supported exit from TO's zone so the forwards are staying with the puck rather than vacating the defensive zone as soon as TO has possession of the puck. Wilson's system was very difficult for d-men often leaving them vunerable to heavy fore-checking.

I thought that TO did well picking up Liles for a low 2nd round draft choice but I wondered why would Colorado give him up for so little. Even when Liles was playing well his limitations were obvious and particularly crippling to a team with defensive issues.

We have to think that d-men with Liles limitations are not canidates for contracts of 4 mil. with term, it's the term that bothers me the most.

 

[DPyro]

Still don't understand why we're playing Holzer over Liles.

 

[Parkdale]

We have to think that d-men with Liles limitations are not canidates for contracts of 4 mil. with term, it's the term that bothers me the most.

The Leafs may well regret Liles contract the same way they must be regretting the Komi contract now. But it's still very early, and Liles is still in his prime years. He can still return to form or we may be able to do a "Beauchemin" with him. I would be more concerned now about doing the right thing with the upcoming UFA contract negotiations.... Phaneuf's and Kessel's in particular.

 

[gabeliscious]

i didnt think that liles was playing that poorly. if carlyle is not going to play liles then i hope nonis is trying to move him. if he cant get moved then we might as well amnesty him and komisarek if we arent going to play them and not able to trade them. clearly komisarek has been passed by all of kostka, franson, fraser, and holzer and liles looks to be in the same boat and possibly even more behind assuming gardiner is recalled at some point.

liles + komisarek is almost $9 million in cap space. we could have a much cheaper defense that is as good or better considering both of these guys are scratched most games.

despite people bashing these guys on here i do think both still have some value and there would be a team in the nhl that would take a chance.

 

[Hyperglide]

I still think we can get some value for JML. There's always room out there for a PMD and JML has had some bad games post-concussion but he's still a slick puck mover and an amazing skater it's not like the guy is 50 and needs cortizone shots on the bench.

If he truly is expendable the Leafs could get value for him. He's not making a whole lot either compared to some of our other albatross contracts.

Not sure who'd quarterback the PP though if we move JML and Phaneuf is on the 1st unit. Would it be Franson until Gardiner and Reilly are ready?

 

[Mess]

Still don't understand why we're playing Holzer over Liles.

Have you been able to catch any of the Leaf games, particularly the ones where Carlyle has Holzer paired with Phaneuf?

Liles is small (Strike I), soft (Strike II) and weak defensively (Strike III), just like in baseball 3 strikes and you're out. .. Holzer isn't any of those things and that is why Carlyle prefers to play him in an effort to win games.

 

[DPyro]

Have you been able to catch any of the Leaf games, particularly the ones where Carlyle has Holzer paired with Phaneuf?

Liles is small (Strike I), soft (Strike II) and weak defensively (Strike III), just like in baseball 3 strikes and you're out. .. Holzer isn't any of those things and that is why Carlyle prefers to play him in an effort to win games.

Apparently someone hasn't been paying attention to what Liles does bring. ie POINTS. Liles is a 40 points defenseman and Carlyle wants to bench him in favour of an AHLer who's not even close to that.

 

[sangreale]

I wondering. Is it Limbo or Purgatory? One is in Limbo in spite of not having committed any sins. One is in purgatory for sins committed.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

Oh yeah, Kessel the guy that only had a fantastic year when he played with Lupul and his production went down when Lups was injured. Yep, kk man

you gotta be kidding me... kessel makes everyone around him better..lups.. jvr... bozie... are you watching games or going by stats?

 

[Commander Clueless]

Apr 3rd or smtn

a Wednesday, thought it usually fell on a Monday? what is smtn?

Translation = approximately a 3rd or something.


Personally I'd bet Nonis could get at least the 2nd the Leafs paid for him. At this point I would trade him. He's a useful defenseman but he's not being used and we have Gardiner and Rielly coming up as puck movers soon (assuming everything goes according to plan).

If Carlyle doesn't plan on using him going forward trading him is the best option.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Have you been able to catch any of the Leaf games, particularly the ones where Carlyle has Holzer paired with Phaneuf?

Liles is small (Strike I), soft (Strike II) and weak defensively (Strike III), just like in baseball 3 strikes and you're out. .. Holzer isn't any of those things and that is why Carlyle prefers to play him in an effort to win games.

Agreed.

In case people haven't noticed we've been winning so far with good defense! With players that developed in the AHL. We lost one game recently and it was from bad rebound control. There's no reason to panic and there's no reason to change to a system best suited for Liles to fit in.

 

[Parkdale]

you gotta be kidding me... kessel makes everyone around him better..lups.. jvr... bozie... are you watching games or going by stats?

I'm also one that believes it's Kessel that stirs the drink on his line. He opens up the defense and is the guy the opposition worries about the most. Despite the shortage of goals (which will come), I think he has been mostly great this year.