Seravalli: John Gibson “I am not playing another game for the Anaheim Ducks” (refuted by agent)

William Hylander

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Aug 17, 2009
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Gibson has been overrated for a while, his numbers don't point to a Goalie that is worth high value assets, especially at his cap.

Hes going to stay in Anaheim unless they drop the ask.
 

Ainsy01

Registered User
Jun 12, 2014
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Zegras while certainly not being a selke finalist and could use some improvements to his 200’ game certainly isn’t the issue and +/- on almost any team, let alone one of the worst defensive teams of all time is a hilarious stat to use to decide what his games like.
Holy christ i wasnt even talking about Zegras i just mentioned the michigan thing and like 6 ducks fans just jumped on here to dickride him. Yes he's fine but i was talking about Gibson being better than he gets credit for.
 
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LuGBuG

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Mar 16, 2006
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Holy christ i wasnt even talking about Zegras i just mentioned the michigan thing and like 6 ducks fans just jumped on here to dickride him. Yes he's fine but i was talking about Gibson being better than he gets credit for.
Lol yeah ok bud. Whatever you say. Strange.
 

Firequacker

used wall of text! It's not very effective...
Jun 3, 2022
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So I got bored and had some time to kill and found some fun numbers. Presenting: a statistically (including GSAx)-based case that John Gibson is Still Good, Actually.
(Please forgive the wall of text, it's nothing compared to how many pixels have already been spilled on this subject.)

First, workload. It's objectively true that the shelling Gibson saw this past season was unprecedented in at least the last decade. (I stopped at 2013, it's probably longer than that.)
—His SA/60 was 39.6, and Dostal's was 38.34. The next highest in the league was 36.26. Only one other goalie since 2013 has seen a SA/60 above 37. That was Collin Delia in 2018-19, who faced 39.35, still slightly lower than Gibson. Delia played 16 games. Gibson played 53.
—His HDSA/60 was 12.84, and Stolarz' was 12.51. The next highest in the league was 11.36, and there was also an 11.29. Outside of this year, only three goalies have faced a HDSA/60 higher than 11 in the last decade. The only other one to go above 12 was Delia again (12.78, still slightly less than Gibson). Only one of those 6 non-Gibson goalies to have faced higher than 11 HDSA/60 this decade played more than 20 games.
—In raw numbers, Gibson faced 1983 shots, second highest in the league. Again, in 53 games. The goalies above and below him in total shots against both played 64 games. He faced 643 high danger shots, most in the league. The next highest was 600 in 64 games.
—Even his backups, objectively, did not face the same challenge. Dostal came close in SA/60 but not in HDSA/60 (10.56). Stolarz came close in HDSA/60 but not SA/60 (36.22). Both of them only played 19 games, and Stolarz played 20 or fewer minutes in four of them.
(data from Natural Stat Trick, filtering for 10+ games played)

Honorable mention to Gibson being the first player since 1955-56 to put up three 50-save performances in one month. In one of those he still allowed 6 goals on 5.83 xGA. The Ducks experience, everyone.

Under these conditions, here's what Gibson accomplished:
—9 steals, 4 with 40+ saves. (Ducks win with a GSAx greater than the margin of victory.)
—5 stolen loser points, 3 with 40+ saves, all with 39+ saves. (Ducks OT loss with a GSAx greater than zero. In practice, they were all greater than 1.)
—6 cost games (Ducks loss where his xGA was lower than the Ducks' goals.) He was only pulled in two of these, Eakins was usually content to let him twist when he had a bad night.
—2 maybe-steals, 1 with 40+ saves. (Ducks OT win with a GSAx greater than zero. There does not seem to be a widely agreed-upon definition of steals; as mentioned with the loser points, I generally feel that in a regular season OT game anything above zero should count, since tying the game to reach OT is more relevant than the margin of victory. However, the GSAx in these two games did not reach one, they only round up to one. I'm happy to disregard them because it's too much massaging of the numbers, but felt they were worth a mention in context.)

Nine wins plus five OT points minus six losses (plus two maybe-wins) equals, Gibson was personally responsible for a net gain of either 11 (18.9%) or 15 (25.8%) of the Ducks' 58 points this past season. This isn't a Ducks fan delusion. The GSAx backs what we're saying if you look below the surface level.
(Edit: correction, I found I'd incorrectly noted one win as both a win and an OT loss, that's what I get for having to do the comparisons manually. So it was actually 10 (17.2%) or 14 (24.1%) which, I don't think that materially impacts my point but I apologize all the same.)
(data again from Natural Stat Trick, however, NST does not seem to list GSAx as a stat in itself so I was checking the xGA versus GA for every game manually. Like I said, I was quite bored.)

Stolen games are not an exhaustive count of games where Gibson stood on his head, only the ones where his teammates actually managed to give him some goal support. Likewise, there were plenty of games where his GSAx got caved but it didn't matter because the rest of the team couldn't score. I didn't find a single game where the Ducks won by outscoring a negative GSAx performance: Gibson bailed his team out repeatedly, but he could never once rely on his team to bail him out. This lines up with what many of his defenders will tell you is a legitimate and serious issue, his tendency to collapse when things appear hopeless. Something which would, presumably, happen less often on a less hopeless team. But who knows? I'm certainly not here to argue he's without flaws. Only that there's statistical backing for the argument to watch the games... or at least watch deeper stats than the season totals.
 
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Shane Diesel

Registered User
Jun 8, 2021
2,007
2,642
So I got bored and had some time to kill and found some fun numbers. Presenting: a statistically (including GSAx)-based case that John Gibson is Still Good, Actually.
(Please forgive the wall of text, it's nothing compared to how many pixels have already been spilled on this subject.)

First, workload. It's objectively true that the shelling Gibson saw this past season was unprecedented in at least the last decade. (I stopped at 2013, it's probably longer than that.)
—His SA/60 was 39.6, and Dostal's was 38.34. The next highest in the league was 36.26. Only one other goalie since 2013 has seen a SA/60 above 37. That was Collin Delia in 2018-19, who faced 39.35, still slightly lower than Gibson. Delia played 16 games. Gibson played 53.
—His HDSA/60 was 12.84, and Stolarz' was 12.51. The next highest in the league was 11.36, and there was also an 11.29. Outside of this year, only three goalies have faced a HDSA/60 higher than 11 in the last decade. The only other one to go above 12 was Delia again (12.78, still slightly less than Gibson). Only one of those 6 non-Gibson goalies to have faced higher than 11 HDSA/60 this decade played more than 20 games.
—In raw numbers, Gibson faced 1983 shots, second highest in the league. Again, in 53 games. The goalies above and below him in total shots against both played 64 games. He faced 643 high danger shots, most in the league. The next highest was 600 in 64 games.
—Even his backups, objectively, did not face the same challenge. Dostal came close in SA/60 but not in HDSA/60 (10.56). Stolarz came close in HDSA/60 but not SA/60 (36.22). Both of them only played 19 games, and Stolarz played 20 or fewer minutes in four of them.
(data from Natural Stat Trick, filtering for 10+ games played)

Honorable mention to Gibson being the first player since 1955-56 to put up three 50-save performances in one month. In one of those he still allowed 6 goals on 5.83 xGA. The Ducks experience, everyone.

Under these conditions, here's what Gibson accomplished:
—9 steals, 4 with 40+ saves. (Ducks win with a GSAx greater than the margin of victory.)
—5 stolen loser points, 3 with 40+ saves, all with 39+ saves. (Ducks OT loss with a GSAx greater than zero. In practice, they were all greater than 1.)
—6 cost games (Ducks loss where his xGA was lower than the Ducks' goals.) He was only pulled in two of these, Eakins was usually content to let him twist when he had a bad night.
—2 maybe-steals, 1 with 40+ saves. (Ducks OT win with a GSAx greater than zero. There does not seem to be a widely agreed-upon definition of steals; as mentioned with the loser points, I generally feel that in a regular season OT game anything above zero should count, since tying the game to reach OT is more relevant than the margin of victory. However, the GSAx in these two games did not reach one, they only round up to one. I'm happy to disregard them because it's too much massaging of the numbers, but felt they were worth a mention in context.)

Nine wins plus five OT points minus six losses (plus two maybe-wins) equals, Gibson was personally responsible for a net gain of either 11 (18.9%) or 15 (25.8%) of the Ducks' 58 points this past season. This isn't a Ducks fan delusion. The GSAx backs what we're saying if you look below the surface level.
(data again from Natural Stat Trick, however, NST does not seem to list GSAx as a stat in itself so I was checking the xGA versus GA for every game manually. Like I said, I was quite bored.)

Stolen games are not an exhaustive count of games where Gibson stood on his head, only the ones where his teammates actually managed to give him some goal support. Likewise, there were plenty of games where his GSAx got caved but it didn't matter because the rest of the team couldn't score. I didn't find a single game where the Ducks won by outscoring a negative GSAx performance: Gibson bailed his team out repeatedly, but he could never once rely on his team to bail him out. This lines up with what many of his defenders will tell you is a legitimate and serious issue, his tendency to collapse when things appear hopeless. Something which would, presumably, happen less often on a less hopeless team. But who knows? I'm certainly not here to argue he's without flaws. Only that there's statistical backing for the argument to watch the games... or at least watch deeper stats than the season totals.
Now do the same analysis for all the other starting goaltenders and compare that to Gibson. Your numbers mean nothing without context.
 

Firequacker

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Jun 3, 2022
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Now do the same analysis for all the other starting goaltenders and compare that to Gibson. Your numbers mean nothing without context.
Why would I do that when it has nothing to do with the point I'm making?

Ducks fans argue that Gibson frequently stands on his head and bails the team out of ridiculous situations, and most of his worst performances occur in games where it was already hopeless. Gibson detractors claim that's nonsense because his total GSAx is bad. I argued that game by game GSAx supports that in fact, yes, he's a net positive whose numbers are skewed by phoning it in in hopeless games. That's what my numbers mean. They are the context to your "now do GSAx" argument. No other goaltender is relevant to that discussion.

Other goaltenders were relevant to the workload discussion, specifically because the "goalies on bad teams do this all the time, Gibson isn't seeing anything unusual" argument comes up in almost every single thread about him and is easily refuted by basic statistics. But 11 net points would be 11 net points even if we were discussing a goalie who saw 20 shots per night.
 

Shane Diesel

Registered User
Jun 8, 2021
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Why would I do that when it has nothing to do with the point I'm making?
I have no idea what you're attempting to measure and numbers in isolation mean nothing.
Ducks fans argue that Gibson frequently stands on his head and bails the team out of ridiculous situations, and most of his worst performances occur in games where it was already hopeless. Gibson detractors claim that's nonsense because his total GSAx is bad. I argued that game by game GSAx supports that in fact, yes, he's a net positive
They don't. Objectively. He's been at the bottom of the league for years in that stat. Do you know how GSAx is calculated? By adding his performance game-by-game.

whose numbers are skewed by phoning it in in hopeless games. That's what my numbers mean. They are the context to your "now do GSAx" argument. No other goaltender is relevant to that discussion.
How do you know he was "phoning it in" and how do you objectively measure that?

Your entire "statistical" argument hinges on "trust me bro, he just stopped trying."
 

Firequacker

used wall of text! It's not very effective...
Jun 3, 2022
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I have no idea what you're attempting to measure and numbers in isolation mean nothing.
Good thing my entire argument is about contextualizing his performance. It's just not about doing so in relation to his peers.

They don't. Objectively. He's been at the bottom of the league for years in that stat. Do you know how GSAx is calculated? By adding his performance game-by-game.
And yet objectively, if Gibson and his awful total GSAx this season were replaced by a goalie who played to the xGA every game, the Ducks would've finished with a far worse record. You're absolutely correct, numbers in isolation mean nothing. And yet you're collapsing an entire data set into a single number and pretending there's no functional difference between the two.

How do you know he was "phoning it in" and how do you objectively measure that?

Your entire "statistical" argument hinges on "trust me bro, he just stopped trying."
Okay, seriously. You split a sentence in half to address its two components like they were unrelated, then you fundamentally misunderstood both of them.
My argument hinges on the statistical fact that based on game by game GSAx, Gibson was a net positive to his team this season despite his high negative total GSAx. Which is why I cited "game by game GSAx" and not "he's phoning it in" as the supporting fact in the statement, I don't believe it was ambiguous at all.
I'll try again, and I'll try to be painfully clear.

(I want to say up front first: in double checking my numbers, I found that somewhere in the process of note-taking I got mixed up and listed the same game as both a win and an OT loss. It was actually a win, thereby removing one OT point as compared to my original post. It doesn't change much overall, but nonetheless, I regret the error.)

The arguments in Gibson's favor often hinge on "watch the games," which isn't a statistical argument, and that's fair enough. But it is fundamentally an argument about overall numbers giving an incorrect picture of his impact, and that can be discussed with statistics.
Individual game statistics reveal the following:
—In 9 wins, according to GSAx, Gibson was the difference between victory or defeat. If he'd performed in accordance with the xGA in those games, the Ducks' goals were not sufficient to win.
—9 stolen wins puts Gibson at 18 stolen points.
—In 4 OT losses, according to GSAx, Gibson was the difference between a loser point and no points. If he'd performed in accordance with the xGA in those games, the Ducks' goals were not sufficient to tie.
—Adding 4 stolen loser points puts Gibson up to 22 stolen points.
—(A quarter of his games played resulting in statistically stolen points probably has something to do with why Ducks fans think he steals a lot of points, despite people in these threads occasionally claiming there's "zero evidence" for it.)
—In 6 losses, according to GSAx, Gibson was the difference between defeat or victory. If he'd performed in accordance with the xGA in those games, the Ducks' goals were sufficient to win.
—Removing 12 cost points puts Gibson at a net total of 10 stolen points.
—Thus, based on the game by game GSAx, he personally accounted for 17.2% of the Ducks' 58 points.
—In the rest of the games, Gibson's GSAx was irrelevant to the result.
—In many of them, he had a significant negative GSAx, but it didn't matter because the Ducks didn't score enough to have won even if he'd played to his xGA, were not even close, and were bumbling around with xGF%s in the low 40s or 30s. These are the kind of games a lot of Gibson supporters believe, generally based on body language and "watch the games", he can be prone to giving up on.
—The crux of the hopeless game collapse theory is that it skews his overall numbers downwards because he racks up extra GA and negative GSAx in those games where it's just meaningless stat padding, while still leaving him with a net positive impact on the team overall. (Which is most certainly a flaw, but a more easily remedied one than him just being terrible across the board.)
—The collapse theory cannot be objectively measured or proven (nor disproven) and was not the primary point of my argument, but the numbers do line up with what one would expect to see if the theory were true. It is not the only explanation, but it is supported.
—If he just sucks outright, it's weird that he personally accounted for so many points on the worst team in the league while facing a historic workload. So I would argue that this deeper delve into the statistics argues for him not, in fact, sucking. But again, it's a statistical case, not a mathematical proof. I never claimed anything more.

I'll stress the main point again: if Gibson were replaced by a goalie who played to the xGA every game, the Ducks would have lost significant points in the standings, despite his poor total GSAx. Objectively, he was a net positive versus that theoretical goalie who would have superior overall stats. And since overall stats can be proved not to tell the full story, there is statistical merit to Gibson supporters arguing "watch the games" in his defense.
 

bucks_oil

Registered User
Aug 25, 2005
8,398
4,612
So I got bored and had some time to kill and found some fun numbers. Presenting: a statistically (including GSAx)-based case that John Gibson is Still Good, Actually.
(Please forgive the wall of text, it's nothing compared to how many pixels have already been spilled on this subject.)

First, workload. It's objectively true that the shelling Gibson saw this past season was unprecedented in at least the last decade. (I stopped at 2013, it's probably longer than that.)
—His SA/60 was 39.6, and Dostal's was 38.34. The next highest in the league was 36.26. Only one other goalie since 2013 has seen a SA/60 above 37. That was Collin Delia in 2018-19, who faced 39.35, still slightly lower than Gibson. Delia played 16 games. Gibson played 53.
—His HDSA/60 was 12.84, and Stolarz' was 12.51. The next highest in the league was 11.36, and there was also an 11.29. Outside of this year, only three goalies have faced a HDSA/60 higher than 11 in the last decade. The only other one to go above 12 was Delia again (12.78, still slightly less than Gibson). Only one of those 6 non-Gibson goalies to have faced higher than 11 HDSA/60 this decade played more than 20 games.
—In raw numbers, Gibson faced 1983 shots, second highest in the league. Again, in 53 games. The goalies above and below him in total shots against both played 64 games. He faced 643 high danger shots, most in the league. The next highest was 600 in 64 games.
—Even his backups, objectively, did not face the same challenge. Dostal came close in SA/60 but not in HDSA/60 (10.56). Stolarz came close in HDSA/60 but not SA/60 (36.22). Both of them only played 19 games, and Stolarz played 20 or fewer minutes in four of them.
(data from Natural Stat Trick, filtering for 10+ games played)

Honorable mention to Gibson being the first player since 1955-56 to put up three 50-save performances in one month. In one of those he still allowed 6 goals on 5.83 xGA. The Ducks experience, everyone.

Under these conditions, here's what Gibson accomplished:
—9 steals, 4 with 40+ saves. (Ducks win with a GSAx greater than the margin of victory.)
—5 stolen loser points, 3 with 40+ saves, all with 39+ saves. (Ducks OT loss with a GSAx greater than zero. In practice, they were all greater than 1.)
—6 cost games (Ducks loss where his xGA was lower than the Ducks' goals.) He was only pulled in two of these, Eakins was usually content to let him twist when he had a bad night.
—2 maybe-steals, 1 with 40+ saves. (Ducks OT win with a GSAx greater than zero. There does not seem to be a widely agreed-upon definition of steals; as mentioned with the loser points, I generally feel that in a regular season OT game anything above zero should count, since tying the game to reach OT is more relevant than the margin of victory. However, the GSAx in these two games did not reach one, they only round up to one. I'm happy to disregard them because it's too much massaging of the numbers, but felt they were worth a mention in context.)

Nine wins plus five OT points minus six losses (plus two maybe-wins) equals, Gibson was personally responsible for a net gain of either 11 (18.9%) or 15 (25.8%) of the Ducks' 58 points this past season. This isn't a Ducks fan delusion. The GSAx backs what we're saying if you look below the surface level.
(data again from Natural Stat Trick, however, NST does not seem to list GSAx as a stat in itself so I was checking the xGA versus GA for every game manually. Like I said, I was quite bored.)

Stolen games are not an exhaustive count of games where Gibson stood on his head, only the ones where his teammates actually managed to give him some goal support. Likewise, there were plenty of games where his GSAx got caved but it didn't matter because the rest of the team couldn't score. I didn't find a single game where the Ducks won by outscoring a negative GSAx performance: Gibson bailed his team out repeatedly, but he could never once rely on his team to bail him out. This lines up with what many of his defenders will tell you is a legitimate and serious issue, his tendency to collapse when things appear hopeless. Something which would, presumably, happen less often on a less hopeless team. But who knows? I'm certainly not here to argue he's without flaws. Only that there's statistical backing for the argument to watch the games... or at least watch deeper stats than the season totals.

Good post. I'd take him.

Campbell is on his way. You can have any two prospects you want.
 

Shane Diesel

Registered User
Jun 8, 2021
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And yet objectively, if Gibson and his awful total GSAx this season were replaced by a goalie who played to the xGA every game, the Ducks would've finished with a far worse record.
No, absolutely not. You have no clue what you're talking about.

You're absolutely correct, numbers in isolation mean nothing. And yet you're collapsing an entire data set into a single number and pretending there's no functional difference between the two.


Okay, seriously. You split a sentence in half to address its two components like they were unrelated, then you fundamentally misunderstood both of them.
My argument hinges on the statistical fact that based on game by game GSAx, Gibson was a net positive to his team this season despite his high negative total GSAx. Which is why I cited "game by game GSAx" and not "he's phoning it in" as the supporting fact in the statement, I don't believe it was ambiguous at all.
And you prove this again with these contradictory statements.
I'll try again, and I'll try to be painfully clear.

(I want to say up front first: in double checking my numbers, I found that somewhere in the process of note-taking I got mixed up and listed the same game as both a win and an OT loss. It was actually a win, thereby removing one OT point as compared to my original post. It doesn't change much overall, but nonetheless, I regret the error.)

The arguments in Gibson's favor often hinge on "watch the games," which isn't a statistical argument, and that's fair enough. But it is fundamentally an argument about overall numbers giving an incorrect picture of his impact, and that can be discussed with statistics.
Individual game statistics reveal the following:
—In 9 wins, according to GSAx, Gibson was the difference between victory or defeat. If he'd performed in accordance with the xGA in those games, the Ducks' goals were not sufficient to win.
—9 stolen wins puts Gibson at 18 stolen points.
—In 4 OT losses, according to GSAx, Gibson was the difference between a loser point and no points. If he'd performed in accordance with the xGA in those games, the Ducks' goals were not sufficient to tie.
—Adding 4 stolen loser points puts Gibson up to 22 stolen points.
—(A quarter of his games played resulting in statistically stolen points probably has something to do with why Ducks fans think he steals a lot of points, despite people in these threads occasionally claiming there's "zero evidence" for it.)
—In 6 losses, according to GSAx, Gibson was the difference between defeat or victory. If he'd performed in accordance with the xGA in those games, the Ducks' goals were sufficient to win.
—Removing 12 cost points puts Gibson at a net total of 10 stolen points.
—Thus, based on the game by game GSAx, he personally accounted for 17.2% of the Ducks' 58 points.
Now do the same analysis for all other starting goaltenders.
—In the rest of the games, Gibson's GSAx was irrelevant to the result.
—In many of them, he had a significant negative GSAx, but it didn't matter because the Ducks didn't score enough to have won even if he'd played to his xGA, were not even close, and were bumbling around with xGF%s in the low 40s or 30s. These are the kind of games a lot of Gibson supporters believe, generally based on body language and "watch the games", he can be prone to giving up on.
—The crux of the hopeless game collapse theory is that it skews his overall numbers downwards because he racks up extra GA and negative GSAx in those games where it's just meaningless stat padding, while still leaving him with a net positive impact on the team overall. (Which is most certainly a flaw, but a more easily remedied one than him just being terrible across the board.)
The collapse theory cannot be objectively measured or proven (nor disproven) and was not the primary point of my argument, but the numbers do line up with what one would expect to see if the theory were true. It is not the only explanation, but it is supported.
So it's completely subjective and worthless and everything written after the bold is vacuous nonsense.
—If he just sucks outright, it's weird that he personally accounted for so many points on the worst team in the league while facing a historic workload. So I would argue that this deeper delve into the statistics argues for him not, in fact, sucking. But again, it's a statistical case, not a mathematical proof. I never claimed anything more.

So you say, but you refuse to compare the amount of points other starting goaltenders account for on their teams by the same analysis so it's impossible to say what he's actually accomplishing is all that impressive.
I'll stress the main point again: if Gibson were replaced by a goalie who played to the xGA every game, the Ducks would have lost significant points in the standings, despite his poor total GSAx. Objectively, he was a net positive versus that theoretical goalie who would have superior overall stats. And since overall stats can be proved not to tell the full story, there is statistical merit to Gibson supporters arguing "watch the games" in his defense.
You haven't proven anything of the sort. You've gish galloped numerous paragraphs demonstrating you don't fully grasp GSAx while claiming your qualitative explanations are irrefutable.
 

Srsly

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Feb 8, 2011
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What is his trade value? Negative, "future considerations", or positive value?
Looking at it from the perspective of a “contending” team without a starter(Toronto) I’d probably attach some valuable assets if Anaheim was willing to take back Murray as a dump. But I’m not sure I’d be comfortable dealing anything of value without the ducks taking back a negative contract so I’d assume it’s slightly positive but nothing too amazing.
 

DavidBL

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Jul 25, 2012
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Orange, CA
No, absolutely not. You have no clue what you're talking about.


And you prove this again with these contradictory statements.

Now do the same analysis for all other starting goaltenders.

So it's completely subjective and worthless and everything written after the bold is vacuous nonsense.


So you say, but you refuse to compare the amount of points other starting goaltenders account for on their teams by the same analysis so it's impossible to say what he's actually accomplishing is all that impressive.

You haven't proven anything of the sort. You've gish galloped numerous paragraphs demonstrating you don't fully grasp GSAx while claiming your qualitative explanations are irrefutable.
Isn't GSAx just a shot based metric based on shot location given relatively arbitrary values? Goalies numbers are massively affected by the team around them. The interesting stat for me is why is Gibby so good at the high danger shots but somehow so bad at the medium and low danger shots. By definition those should be easier to save but that's not the case with Gibson. I'd love to hear a logical explanation on ehst would cause that by someone who is more versed in the stat.
 

Ducks in a row

Go Ducks Quack Quack
Dec 17, 2013
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Gibson has been overrated for a while, his numbers don't point to a Goalie that is worth high value assets, especially at his cap.

Hes going to stay in Anaheim unless they drop the ask.
John Gibson Stats.png

Take a look at John Gibson stats and notice the yellow colored parts that is all from season with Dallas Eakins as Head Coach before that he had good numbers.

There are people who understand why his numbers have been poor more recently and those who clearly don't. That is why some view him as overrated because they just don't get it. He is better then his number suggest.
 

ToDavid

Registered User
Dec 13, 2018
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Isn't GSAx just a shot based metric based on shot location given relatively arbitrary values? Goalies numbers are massively affected by the team around them. The interesting stat for me is why is Gibby so good at the high danger shots but somehow so bad at the medium and low danger shots. By definition those should be easier to save but that's not the case with Gibson. I'd love to hear a logical explanation on ehst would cause that by someone who is more versed in the stat.

Not arbitrary, the values reflect the probability that a shot from that location (plus some other factors) will result in a goal based on hundreds of thousands of actual shots taken by actual players.

Not perfect by any means, but a useful starting point that can then be enhanced with additional context.
 

Shane Diesel

Registered User
Jun 8, 2021
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View attachment 726793
Take a look at John Gibson stats and notice the yellow colored parts that is all from season with Dallas Eakins as Head Coach before that he had good numbers.

There are people who understand why his numbers have been poor more recently and those who clearly don't. That is why some view him as overrated because they just don't get it. He is better then his number suggest.
Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.
 

DavidBL

Registered User
Jul 25, 2012
5,951
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Orange, CA
Not arbitrary, the values reflect the probability that a shot from that location (plus some other factors) will result in a goal based on hundreds of thousands of actual shots taken by actual players.

Not perfect by any means, but a useful starting point that can then be enhanced with additional context.
So here is my issue, the value is essentially the avg % of shots from certain areas going in and doesn't necessarily reflect what's actually going on during play? I think I read that rebound attempts are accounted for, but how much is covered for the medium danger shot location for a guy left wide open for a cross ice pass that the goalie has a low chance of saving. Does that count has high danger or medium? Unless someone is legitimately going through each game and accurately accounting for the circumstances of the shot I find the accuracy to be dubious at best. Thata 1300 games with 50-60 shots each game. Even more for the Ducks haha.
 

Shane Diesel

Registered User
Jun 8, 2021
2,007
2,642
Isn't GSAx just a shot based metric based on shot location given relatively arbitrary values? Goalies numbers are massively affected by the team around them. The interesting stat for me is why is Gibby so good at the high danger shots but somehow so bad at the medium and low danger shots. By definition those should be easier to save but that's not the case with Gibson. I'd love to hear a logical explanation on ehst would cause that by someone who is more versed in the stat.

Expected goals (xG) is a model-based metric used to isolate the evaluation of play-driving and chance-creation/suppression ability from things a player cannot control such as bounces, quality of goaltender, etc. The models make use of the public data tracked by the NHL. The NHL tracks every unblocked shot attempt (Fenwick) and collects over 100 pieces of information per unblocked shot attempt (shooter, location on ice, type of shot, etc.). Analytics nerds leverage this historical data to train the data-driven expected goals models.
 

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