Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part III (Updates in First Post)

[GoNordiquesGo]

That is the silliest thing I've heard in all my 50years in proffessional hockey.

50 years, wow, long live the King! I guess there aren't that many left then...

 

[Ararana]

The 2019 NHL front office confidence rankings: Fans weigh in...

This smug Joe pic is amazing and needs to be posted every time he does something awesome.

 

[CobraAcesS]

View attachment 248717

The 2019 NHL front office confidence rankings: Fans weigh in...

This smug Joe pic is amazing and needs to be posted every time he does something awesome.

That article is an interesting read.

 

[Auston mcdavid]

I think Jarmo made his big mistake not when he went all-in, but when he started the season with Panarin and Bobrovsky in the lineup. I'm a strong believer that a good GM must know a year in advance if a player is likely to leave in free agency, or what it will likely take to keep him. And if a star player is likely to leave, and you're not currently a Stanley Cup contender, I think it's a responsibility of a good GM to trade those players before the season even starts. So if Jarmo was a good GM in my books, Panarin would have been traded to the Rangers, Islanders or Panthers last offseason with an extension (hopefully) built in. Ditto with Bob. And he would have got back more than draft picks because it would be an offseason trade with an extension rather than a trade deadline rental.

Yeah, you could say it would send a bad message to the fanbase, but honestly I think the best way to grow a fanbase is to build a consistent winner, not have a single season of playoff hockey then watch everyone leave.

This is why I'm such a big Sakic fan. He knew a year ahead of time what Barrie was likely to demand as a free agent, and rather than let him walk or wait until the trade deadline to make a decision, he traded him in the offseason. This way, rather than a big drop-off in talent when Barrie walks for nothing, the Avs maintain a steady flow of talent with Kadri on the roster now and possibly Rosen in the future.

Because your such a big Salic fan with his plan in terms of building a roster and developing it do u think he is already in the tier of holland/yzerman I think he’s very close love to hear your thoughts ?

 

[Bubba Thudd]

"Salic" is already as good as Ysurmin. Soon he'll leave him far behind.

 

[Pokecheque]

Let's not get into a discussion of Salic Law now...that might take a few more pages of this thread.

 

[MarkT]

Because your such a big Salic fan with his plan in terms of building a roster and developing it do u think he is already in the tier of holland/yzerman I think he’s very close love to hear your thoughts ?

It's hard to say. When I talk about Sakic, I'm really talking about him and his whole decision-making team, because you never really know what things were his idea, or whether he's just a really good manager who recognizes good ideas when he hears them.

So I think it's actually almost impossible to truly judge a GM until he is either the GM for multiple teams or all his management team eventually leave to join other teams.

In terms of the guys you mentioned, I don't actually rate Holland that highly given the current state of the Red Wings. Since the salary cap came into place the wings seems to have been on a slow, steady decline, which has been helped along by them repeatedly signing bad contracts. If he were a truly great GM he would have found a way to either keep them competitive or he would have managed a quicker rebuild.

Yzerman on the other hand seems to have done a great job in Tampa, but we'll really see his quality as a GM over the next few seasons in Detroit. Maybe it was Julian BriseBois who was the real magician in Tampa all along. Maybe the great living conditions and tax situation meant he was playing GM mode on the easy setting. Maybe a lot of his success was based on the team having great amateur and professional scouts. This isn't me trying to diminish Yzerman - it's me trying to show how hard it is to definitively talk about the quality of a GM when they've had the same basic front office team in place the whole time.

With Sakic, it might not be a coincidence that he suddenly became a good gm when Chris MacFarland came on board.

I hope you understand based on the above why I'm not really comfortable trying to rank GMs or compare them to each other. It's too complex for that. Suffice it to say I really like the moves Sakic (and his team) have made in the last few years. I also really liked a lot of the moves Yzerman (and his team) made. Are they good GMs? The evidence seems to point in that direction. How good are they really? I don't know.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think Jarmo made his big mistake not when he went all-in, but when he started the season with Panarin and Bobrovsky in the lineup. I'm a strong believer that a good GM must know a year in advance if a player is likely to leave in free agency, or what it will likely take to keep him. And if a star player is likely to leave, and you're not currently a Stanley Cup contender, I think it's a responsibility of a good GM to trade those players before the season even starts. So if Jarmo was a good GM in my books, Panarin would have been traded to the Rangers, Islanders or Panthers last offseason with an extension (hopefully) built in. Ditto with Bob. And he would have got back more than draft picks because it would be an offseason trade with an extension rather than a trade deadline rental.

Yeah, you could say it would send a bad message to the fanbase, but honestly I think the best way to grow a fanbase is to build a consistent winner, not have a single season of playoff hockey then watch everyone leave.

This is why I'm such a big Sakic fan. He knew a year ahead of time what Barrie was likely to demand as a free agent, and rather than let him walk or wait until the trade deadline to make a decision, he traded him in the offseason. This way, rather than a big drop-off in talent when Barrie walks for nothing, the Avs maintain a steady flow of talent with Kadri on the roster now and possibly Rosen in the future.

I still maintain that Jarmo was in the toughest position a GM could possibly find himself in. He had two franchise-level star players basically announce they were hitting the market no matter what. Bread even tried to force Jarmo's hand by putting that artificial "deadline" in September after which he refused to discuss any contract extensions (but even then I don't think he would have...he was going to test the market, end of story). Jarmo knew he wasn't going to get a good return on those guys. If the Jax had fallen flat on their faces, then yes, I think he would've dealt them anyway. But they didn't. I don't think he made this decision in a vacuum either, he said he discussed it with ownership, his staff, the coaches, and possibly some of the players. He did not leap blindly. They at least got themselves a ton of cap room and have a very young core with some up-and-coming talent still developing.

It's tough to compare Jarmo to other GMs because Jarmo inherited a mess built by not one, but two truly abhorrent General Managers. Sakic, conversely, had it much better (not ideal, but much better). It's impossible to say Sakic would have been the same kind of executive had he been in Columbus as opposed to Colorado. The "patient' approach would not have played out as well with Jax fans.

I personally think the consequences of shutting it down and trading Bread and Bob would've been far worse than them actually going for it. In doing the former you're signalling not

Because your such a big Salic fan with his plan in terms of building a roster and developing it do u think he is already in the tier of holland/yzerman I think he’s very close love to hear your thoughts ?

Personally I think he's in the higher tier (though I'm biased) but I still want to see this team actually reach these lofty plateaus before I say he's among the elites.

Broken record time, but it really is just so hard to evaluate GMs....as I've said before I once considered David Poile to be the best of the best, but he has made IMO some poor decisions of late. Conversely, I thought Doug Armstrong was a horrid GM but he went big this offseason, and nearly every single big move he made paid off. Sometimes it just comes down to whether or not your gambles pay off. In Jarmo's case, they haven't, but I'm not sure that should be held against him. I want an ambitious GM, so long as he isn't stupid about it.

 

[MarkT]

I still maintain that Jarmo was in the toughest position a GM could possibly find himself in. He had two franchise-level star players basically announce they were hitting the market no matter what. Bread even tried to force Jarmo's hand by putting that artificial "deadline" in September after which he refused to discuss any contract extensions (but even then I don't think he would have...he was going to test the market, end of story). Jarmo knew he wasn't going to get a good return on those guys. If the Jax had fallen flat on their faces, then yes, I think he would've dealt them anyway. But they didn't. I don't think he made this decision in a vacuum either, he said he discussed it with ownership, his staff, the coaches, and possibly some of the players. He did not leap blindly. They at least got themselves a ton of cap room and have a very young core with some up-and-coming talent still developing.

It's tough to compare Jarmo to other GMs because Jarmo inherited a mess built by not one, but two truly abhorrent General Managers. Sakic, conversely, had it much better (not ideal, but much better). It's impossible to say Sakic would have been the same kind of executive had he been in Columbus as opposed to Colorado. The "patient' approach would not have played out as well with Jax fans.

I personally think the consequences of shutting it down and trading Bread and Bob would've been far worse than them actually going for it. In doing the former you're signalling not

I never said he had an easy decision to make. I think he made the wrong one is all, and this isn't based on hindsight. I think New Jersey should trade Taylor Hall this offseason if they can't get him to sign an extension before the start of the season.

I understand he might not have gotten a mind-blowing return for Panarin and Bobrovsky last offseason, but it wouldn't have been nothing - both players have genuine value, even as one-year rentals. Also, again, waiting till midseason (when the team may have fallen flat on its' face) is too late because a lot of teams can't make the trade due to cap constraints or don't want to make the trade because it might mess up their roster chemistry. Trading them mid-season lowers the value because there are less trading partners available and teams get the player for less time.

And I'm sure he did discuss the decision with a ton of people. I just think the people who told him to keep them gave him bad advice. Keeping them is the easy choice because it involves doing nothing. Trading them is the hard choice because it requires an action that can be judged and second-guessed and involves unanswerable questions like "what if?"

Finally, I understand trading Panarin and Bob sends a bad signal to the fanbase. You know what also sends a bad signal to the fanbase? Making them watch a bunch of star players walk away from the team. Jarmo gambled big-time on the only outcome that makes fans happy - that a loaded up team with both Panarin and Bob as own-rentals could do enough in the playoffs that it would make fans say "that was worth it". I don't think fans are saying that today. And I think they'll say it less and less as the effects of missing essentially an entire draft start to happen. Yes they have a good young team, but in a market that struggles to attract free agents, you need every single prospect and draft pick you can get, and you want to only acquire players who are going to stay with the team.

 

[Pokecheque]

Whoops...didn't finish my sentence.

I meant to say it not only sends a bad signal to the fanbase, but to the players currently on the roster as well as any prospective free agents if you pull the plug before even giving that core a legit shot. I think if you ask a lot of Jax fans what the right move was, most all of them are okay with the decision to go for it. And the good news is, if indeed they struggle this season, they didn't give up any future first rounders. They can tank it this upcoming season (and they might) and still benefit from it. I still say the benefits of them going for it outweigh the consequences.

The pill gets a little harder to swallow if, say, Lassi Thomson turns into a star. But, how many Avs fans are still bitter about losing out on Filip Forsberg? It's helped by the fact that WSH isn't benefiting from him either...just the damned Preds.

 

[McMetal]

In terms of the guys you mentioned, I don't actually rate Holland that highly given the current state of the Red Wings. Since the salary cap came into place the wings seems to have been on a slow, steady decline, which has been helped along by them repeatedly signing bad contracts. If he were a truly great GM he would have found a way to either keep them competitive or he would have managed a quicker rebuild.

I think that was inevitable, really. I understand Holland's temptation to keep the playoff streak alive for as long as possible, that was quite a run and will likely never be matched again. I think anybody in his place would have decided to keep pushing forward. And they do have a pretty decent young core of U23s in place right now that could take them somewhere, so it's not like he left the team barren. Could they have rebuilt faster and not signed big deals for middle six players? Probably, but I don't see Detroit as being in such a terrible position right now, they just need to fix their defense and maybe get an upgrade at 1C from Larkin, as I don't see him as the franchise type to lead a team to a cup, but Holland at least left Yzerman with some good pieces to work with.

Holland IMO has a way worse problem in Edmonton to work with, as the clock is ticking before McDavid demands out, and if that happens they are screwed beyond belief.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think Boomer Gordon put it best: You may own the streak, but at some point, the streak owns you. That playoff streak, along with ownership's desire to open the new rink with a contending team, prompted Holland and the Wings to make some very bad decisions. Lacroix did the same thing to a lesser degree when he was PURSUING HISTORY.

Larkin IMO will surprise you. They could probably use another legit scoring line center (that might be Veleno) but I think he's more than good enough to anchor an offense. The big question mark, to me, is Zadina. I think he'll he good, but will he be a star?

 

[McMetal]

I think Boomer Gordon put it best: You may own the streak, but at some point, the streak owns you. That playoff streak, along with ownership's desire to open the new rink with a contending team, prompted Holland and the Wings to make some very bad decisions. Lacroix did the same thing to a lesser degree when he was PURSUING HISTORY.

Larkin IMO will surprise you. They could probably use another legit scoring line center (that might be Veleno) but I think he's more than good enough to anchor an offense. The big question mark, to me, is Zadina. I think he'll he good, but will he be a star?

I agree with that regarding the streak, just saying I think a lot of owners and GMs would have done the same thing in their position. Owners in particular don't like rebuilds and want to avoid them even when they're necessary, and they usually don't get started until a GM is fired and somebody new takes over.

It's possible Larkin breaks out more, but I just don't see 70 points for a 1C as a game breaking type of player even with his admirable two-way game. He's now the same age as MacKinnon was when he broke out, so there's hope yet, but I think he's ultimately not going to be the type of player that leads a team to the promised land.

 

[Pokecheque]

I agree with that regarding the streak, just saying I think a lot of owners and GMs would have done the same thing in their position. Owners in particular don't like rebuilds and want to avoid them even when they're necessary, and they usually don't get started until a GM is fired and somebody new takes over.

It's possible Larkin breaks out more, but I just don't see 70 points for a 1C as a game breaking type of player even with his admirable two-way game. He's now the same age as MacKinnon was when he broke out, so there's hope yet, but I think he's ultimately not going to be the type of player that leads a team to the promised land.

Oh yes, most of them would have. Hell, the Avs held on for WAY too long before finally pulling the plug in 2008.

I wonder how a team would do if they went strictly by the book--got rid of aging players, even fan-favorites, pulled the plug when the window closed, etc. My belief is that team wouldn't be nearly as successful as we'd all like to think.

As for Larkin, I don't think he's an elite superstar, but I don't necessarily think he needs to be for a team to be successful. He's a very good young two-way forward who plays with a lot of snarl in his game. And he's already publicly stated he's ready to be the captain of the team (whether he gets picked is another matter entirely). So long as there's adequate depth in other areas I think he'll be fine for them. They're tanking it for at least one more season so who knows who they'll get in 2020. They definitely need a franchise defenseman...unless Seider is that.

 

[MarkT]

I think that was inevitable, really. I understand Holland's temptation to keep the playoff streak alive for as long as possible, that was quite a run and will likely never be matched again. I think anybody in his place would have decided to keep pushing forward. And they do have a pretty decent young core of U23s in place right now that could take them somewhere, so it's not like he left the team barren. Could they have rebuilt faster and not signed big deals for middle six players? Probably, but I don't see Detroit as being in such a terrible position right now, they just need to fix their defense and maybe get an upgrade at 1C from Larkin, as I don't see him as the franchise type to lead a team to a cup, but Holland at least left Yzerman with some good pieces to work with.

Holland IMO has a way worse problem in Edmonton to work with, as the clock is ticking before McDavid demands out, and if that happens they are screwed beyond belief.

Responding to bold first: No, I think most GMs would have decided to keep pushing forward, and most GMs are average or worse.

As for their current team, yeah I also think they have some nice pieces. They also have by my count at least 5 bad contracts on the books that were signed by Holland, and all of them have some form of NTC. In the case of Nielsen and Abdelkader, those bad deals have several more years left as well. And I'm not even counting the bad contracts he's had to move, buy out, or have already ended - I'm just talking about the ones still on the books years after the Wings were last a good team.

So what I think Holland has created is a bubble team that might compete for the playoffs soon, but will struggle to get over the hump because they'll be at the cap, but not have a team worthy of being at the cap ceiling. And yeah, they have some good young pieces, but right now I don't see a lot of game breaking talent or enough young depth to win by committee. Also, who is their goalie going to be when their young guys are in their prime?

I don't think Holland is the worst GM in the league by any stretch, but I also don't think he deserves to be talked about as the best or one of the very best GMs in the league.

 

[Hasbro]

One big advantage with Neal over Lucic is Neal's contract isn't buyout proof.

 

[McMetal]

Responding to bold first: No, I think most GMs would have decided to keep pushing forward, and most GMs are average or worse.

As for their current team, yeah I also think they have some nice pieces. They also have by my count at least 5 bad contracts on the books that were signed by Holland, and all of them have some form of NTC. In the case of Nielsen and Abdelkader, those bad deals have several more years left as well. And I'm not even counting the bad contracts he's had to move, buy out, or have already ended - I'm just talking about the ones still on the books years after the Wings were last a good team.

So what I think Holland has created is a bubble team that might compete for the playoffs soon, but will struggle to get over the hump because they'll be at the cap, but not have a team worthy of being at the cap ceiling. And yeah, they have some good young pieces, but right now I don't see a lot of game breaking talent or enough young depth to win by committee. Also, who is their goalie going to be when their young guys are in their prime?

I don't think Holland is the worst GM in the league by any stretch, but I also don't think he deserves to be talked about as the best or one of the very best GMs in the league.

Agreed with the bold. He's certainly not some generational GM, I just think he left the Wings in a little better shape than he gets credit for, they're not completely barren even if they are cap-strapped and laden with some baffling NTC contracts. Certainly he needed to go to give somebody a fresh start with it, and of course Stevie Y is a massive upgrade in that chair, but I don't think he did an altogether terrible job.

 

[Pokecheque]

Agreed with the bold. He's certainly not some generational GM, I just think he left the Wings in a little better shape than he gets credit for, they're not completely barren even if they are cap-strapped and laden with some baffling NTC contracts. Certainly he needed to go to give somebody a fresh start with it, and of course Stevie Y is a massive upgrade in that chair, but I don't think he did an altogether terrible job.

Holland is about as close to "generational" as they come though. He didn't just cultivate on-ice talent, he also produced some very keen front-office minds as well. And nearly every successful team in the league patterned their system after the Detroit model, including Chicago and, at least to some extent, Colorado. KH was also able to do the one thing Lou Lamoriello hasn't--win a championship in the Cap era. He ain't perfect by any means, but I don't think there was a better possible hire for Edmonton under the circumstances. Even if he ultimately fails, he'll have at least gotten them pointed in the right direction.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Holland is about as close to "generational" as they come though. He didn't just cultivate on-ice talent, he also produced some very keen front-office minds as well. And nearly every successful team in the league patterned their system after the Detroit model, including Chicago and, at least to some extent, Colorado. KH was also able to do the one thing Lou Lamoriello hasn't--win a championship in the Cap era. He ain't perfect by any means, but I don't think there was a better possible hire for Edmonton under the circumstances. Even if he ultimately fails, he'll have at least gotten them pointed in the right direction.

Yeah I'm not on the Detroit fan base train of Holland sucks either. The reason is drafting and development. There was 100% pressure from ownership to keep things going as long as possible. I mean the owner died recently. I knew they were stuck basically doing the exact same thing the Avs did. Nothing else matters other than playoffs until the wheels fall off. That was his mandate.

I wasn't really that worried about him ending up the GM for Seattle because his base philosophy for building is something I agree with. It will be interesting to see if his reputation will allow him to maneuver in Edmonton the way he needs to. That owner ship group is just off their meds lol. So he may have just traded one set of handcuffs for another. I'm really curious to see how the next three years go.

Call me crazy but I think Mr. Y fails in Detroit. He does not have the same scouting and development talent around him that he brought to Tampa (from Detroit), and he does not have the financial advantage or the attractive city/local. Once Detroit loses it's reputation as a class A organization he'll find it really difficult, and I don't think he has much time left if any at all.

 

[Pokecheque]

Yeah I'm not on the Detroit fan base train of Holland sucks either. The reason is drafting and development. There was 100% pressure from ownership to keep things going as long as possible. I mean the owner died recently. I knew they were stuck basically doing the exact same thing the Avs did. Nothing else matters other than playoffs until the wheels fall off. That was his mandate.

I wasn't really that worried about him ending up the GM for Seattle because his base philosophy for building is something I agree with. It will be interesting to see if his reputation will allow him to maneuver in Edmonton the way he needs to. That owner ship group is just off their meds lol. So he may have just traded one set of handcuffs for another. I'm really curious to see how the next three years go.

Call me crazy but I think Mr. Y fails in Detroit. He does not have the same scouting and development talent around him that he brought to Tampa (from Detroit), and he does not have the financial advantage or the attractive city/local. Once Detroit loses it's reputation as a class A organization he'll find it really difficult, and I don't think he has much time left if any at all.

Oh, I wouldn't bet against him. For all the mess Holland made with all those bad contracts, once Detroit finally pulled the plug they've done quite well. IMO he absolutely NAILED last year's draft (though in hindsight...he might have been better off taking Hughes over Zadina, but only time will tell). Stevie Y already knows a ton of people in that front office, brought over some of his best people from Tampa, and he modeled the Tampa system after the one in Detroit anyway. Now, it's possible he screwed up big-time taking Moritz Seider, but...again, I wouldn't bet against the guy.

They're gonna tank at least one more season, in 2020 a lot of those bad contracts Holland signed come off the books, they've already stockpiled picks in the upcoming draft and will likely add more (I bet one or both of Athanasiou and Mantha will be dealt) and then I think they'll start climbing their way back up.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Oh, I wouldn't bet against him. For all the mess Holland made with all those bad contracts, once Detroit finally pulled the plug they've done quite well. IMO he absolutely NAILED last year's draft (though in hindsight...he might have been better off taking Hughes over Zadina, but only time will tell). Stevie Y already knows a ton of people in that front office, brought over some of his best people from Tampa, and he modeled the Tampa system after the one in Detroit anyway. Now, it's possible he screwed up big-time taking Moritz Seider, but...again, I wouldn't bet against the guy.

They're gonna tank at least one more season, in 2020 a lot of those bad contracts Holland signed come off the books, they've already stockpiled picks in the upcoming draft and will likely add more (I bet one or both of Athanasiou and Mantha will be dealt) and then I think they'll start climbing their way back up.

Yeah I just don't think he has the same advantages, and that team took forwards when they should have taken defense. I think that team will need at least two more seasons of drafting top five, and the right picks.

Not suspending Dats (out of respect) and trading his contract cost them Chychrun. Then Z over Hughes, and taking that Rasmus dude. Yzerman has his work cut out for him for sure.

 

[ThatAvsGamer]

So Sakic is going to talk to Rantanen sometime before training camp. We have pretty much lost every star player we've had under his control because of money. The only star player we haven't lost because of money has been Mackinnon. Shaky start to the season.

"We want him here for training camp," Sakic told the Denver Post. "No one needs the distraction, so hopefully we're going to be in contact here shortly and get something done. We kind of have a pretty good idea where he should be slotted. Hopefully, when we start our dialogue soon, it shouldn't be that hard."

 

[Pokecheque]

So Sakic is going to talk to Rantanen sometime before training camp. We have pretty much lost every star player we've had under his control because of money. The only star player we haven't lost because of money has been Mackinnon. Shaky start to the season.

"We want him here for training camp," Sakic told the Denver Post. "No one needs the distraction, so hopefully we're going to be in contact here shortly and get something done. We kind of have a pretty good idea where he should be slotted. Hopefully, when we start our dialogue soon, it shouldn't be that hard."

I don't think that's true at all. The relationship between the organization and O'Reilly was already frayed badly by the time he officially took over. Duchene's departure had absolutely NOTHING to do with money. And they just signed one of their top defensemen for seven more years.

 

[ThatAvsGamer]

I don't think that's true at all. The relationship between the organization and O'Reilly was already frayed badly by the time he officially took over. Duchene's departure had absolutely NOTHING to do with money. And they just signed one of their top defensemen for seven more years.

O’reilly said he would’ve stay if he was given what he wanted, we lost him due to money.

Sure duchene wasn’t lost due to money, but we just lost our top defender due to money when we are a bottom feeder when it comes to spending. We had 4 Center’s that could play on the 1st line if needed, we lost 2/4 of them due to money.

Sakic has lost more star players due to money than he’s kept.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

O’reilly said he would’ve stay if he was given what he wanted, we lost him due to money.

Sure duchene wasn’t lost due to money, but we just lost our top defender due to money when we are a bottom feeder when it comes to spending. We had 4 Center’s that could play on the 1st line if needed, we lost 2/4 of them due to money.

Sakic has lost more star players due to money than he’s kept.

That's a hot take if I ever saw one.

We didn't lose Barrie because of money at least not in the sense you are implying. There were many reasons to have traded Barrie... the cap being one of them. They could have afforded him this year but it would have got harder the years afters. Trading him at the TDL would have return a lot less and only future. The other reasons to trade him were we needed a #2C and he was our best trading chip to get that. We also have two guys coming up that can provide what Barrie brings...how much of it is still to be found out. And that's not even mentioning Girard who can still take another fairly big step offensively as well.

So ROR is pretty well the only one we lost due to money. Stastny left because he couldn't see himself fit into that lineup.